Talk:Andorra/Archive 2

Sport
Does anyone in Andorra play sports? Football(soccer)? Basketball? Winter sports? TheOneOnTheLeft (talk) 09:23, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Removing joke paragraph about Macroneaux
I'm removing this paragraph because it is not sourced and it sounds like a joke:

In the early 1850s, Spanish settlers traveled to the Northern point of Andorra with the hopes of claiming about 2 hectares of land in exchange for Spanish guns. After a series of small disputes among the locals, Andorra reclaimed the land. Years later a group of Frenchman bribed the government with 10 prize winning stallions for the same plot of land. That bit of land is now called Macroneaux and is currently without a ruler. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hoping To Help (talk • contribs) 22:14, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Consistency?
The lead paragraph says Andorra has "the second highest human life expectancy in the world," at 83 years, while further down the page, under Demographics, it says "According to the U.S. Census Bureau, Andorra has the world's longest life expectancy: 83.5 years." I understand that it's probably just a case of which source one chooses to cite, but discrepancies like this only contribute to a sense of schizophrenia and inconsistency in articles. Could someone choose one source or the other to make the piece consistent? Thanks. Myles (talk) 01:32, 4 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I noticed that too, and it bothered me plenty. I scrolled up and down, and up and down, and was a bit confused. This isn't something that should differ between sources all that much. Unfortunately, I don't know enough about Andorra or life expectancy rates to choose one (and be bold!) myself. 165.134.194.139 (talk) 02:41, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

Condense the history section?
Having a separate History of Andorra article seems kind of pointless if the summary of Andorran history in this article has only four fewer words than that article. Can it be pared down? —Largo Plazo (talk) 20:03, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree; but that daughter article is embarrassingly short of references, and full of stubby little paragraphs. It's almost as though it should be deleted and the current section here retained with the extra four lines. Do you know anyone who might work on the daughter article? Tony   (talk)  02:58, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Link to Western Europe is relevant? How?
The opening: Western Europe refers to the countries generally in the westernmost half of Europe, but the definition is complex and carries political connotations. As a result, geographically eastern countries (Finland, Greece) that steered clear of Soviet influence during the Cold War are usually included, while Western members of the former Eastern Bloc (Czech Republic, Poland) are excluded. In addition, the term has geographic, economic and cultural aspects. Since the end of World War II, the term has been used to describe the high-income developed countries of western Europe, characterized by democratic political systems, mixed economies combining the free market with aspects of the welfare state, alliance with the United States, and membership in NATO.

Someone, pray tell, apprise me of why the readers need to be faced with a blue item here, followed 1.5 seconds later with generalised links to France and to Spain? I'm interested to know. Ckatz utterly refuses to engage in substantive reasoning, and will never provide evidence. In the absence of this, I believe the three items should not be linked. Tony  (talk)  12:24, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I believe proper Wikiprocedure for CKatz, if he disagrees with the WP:OVERLINK guideline, would be to gain consensus first to get it changed, following which he could make such changes to individual articles. Someone please correct me if my understanding is wrong? --Goodmorningworld (talk) 13:39, 29 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Or, Tony and GMW could stop doing the tag-team editing thing and accept that Tony's vision of stripping out a so-called "sea of blue" is not shared by everyone. Simply put, he rewrote the linking guideline without consensus last July in order to suit his own purposes, and has been pursuing that goal ever since. --Ckatz chat spy  18:29, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
 * This sniping will not get us anywhere. Instead, let's focus on the content issue: is Western Europe a relevant link in the above passage? Disregarding MOSLINK's specific guidance on not linking common geographic terms, let's look at two basic principles: would the link improve readers' understanding of the topic, and is it relevant to the topic? Dabomb87 (talk) 19:39, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Ckatz, I must ask you to refrain from your focus entirely on the personal (i.e., me), and to engage in substantive argument. It really doesn't matter who keyed in what in this guideline—what does matter is your arguments, and I suspect that you have none; otherwise, why have we not heard them yet? Tony   (talk)  02:24, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Tony, I'd be quite happy to not have to discuss you (and your habit of making this a personal issue through unfounded accusations, spurious claims etc.) if you would actually stop making those sorts of statements. As for your statement that it "doesn't matter who keyed in what", I think the fact that you rewrote a guideline to suit your personal preferences, preferences which you are now trying to institute here, is directly relevant. How could it not be? (BTW, the very question of this "common terms" matter is currently under discussion at the MOS page, as you're aware, and other editors have raised arguments as to why the rush to strip out relevant links such as these is not appropriate.) --Ckatz chat spy  02:32, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
 * There you go again. Not one substantive argument in support of your contention that "Europe" et al. should be linked. We keep asking for it, but as I warned people above, your strategy is to personalise and avoid substantive argument. It will never wash. Tony   (talk)  02:35, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
 * It's not rocket science... the link is relevant because it provides useful information for people reading about the country, and who might be curious about the linked terms. We're talking about articles on important subjects related to this article, not about linking "cat" or "the" or something truly unnecessary. As for your "it won't wash" statement and the supposed "strategy" you outline, please keep those notions in mind when you are considering making more of your typically unfounded claims against your fellow editors, as you have done many times in the past. --Ckatz chat spy  02:44, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Ckatz, in the first half of your post, you managed a vague step in the direction of substantive engagement with the issue, although it's merely a generalised assertion—specifics are at issue here, since we don't provide a blue magic carpet for discretionary browsing (this is a serious, professional outfit). Sadly, your post veered off into personal accusations after that. I would really like not to have to reply in kind, but I feel forced into defending myself; perhaps I should just let the personal stuff ride. Now, having dragged you a little of the way towards engaging on the actual issue, I must ask that you provide evidence from the article on "Europe" of what exactly is there that will help a reader to increase their understanding of the topic of Andorra. We presume that with the map already emblazoned in the Andorra article (on two scales), the location within Europe is not at issue. What I see when I go to the Europe article is a sea of irrelevant information. What, exactly, is focused on understanding Andorra?

One is tempted to believe that you have been unsuccessful in changing WP:LINK's advice in this respect because you never present specific arguments related to reader utility (instead relying on the personal accusations alone—who did what when in the kiddies' playground). And perhaps the reason you haven't presented such specific arguments is that you know they won't wash. Tony  (talk)  02:55, 30 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Tony, you're correct: we are trying to operate as a "serious, professional outfit". That's why I'm asking for such conduct from you, rather than unfounded accusations, and why I've had to bring these matters up with you repeatedly. Unfortunately, every time I have done so on your talk page (which one might think is the correct place) I have only received vague, generalized statements that have not translated into actual change. You can attempt to word-smith it as much as you like here and elsewhere, but your actions tell a different tale.
 * As for the links, there is no wide-spread consensus for the changes you are trying to make, and debating them on a page-by-page basis serves only to avoid the bigger question. I'd hope that you would recognize this, and avoid the mass-action script-based stripping out of all links such as Europe and other place names until there is a firm agreement. Keep in mind that the list of so-called "common terms" basically consists of a bunch of places you feel shouldn't be linked, and that the primary inspiration for this de-linking is your own publicly declared desire to "de-blue" the encyclopedia. If you consider this a "personal attack", then please explain how other editors are supposed to discuss a matter that is so closely tied to one person - namely, you? --Ckatz chat spy  03:08, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Still personalised: "you're ... you ... you ... your ... You ... you ... your ... you ... you ... you ... closely tied to one person – namely you." I might have missed one or two. Still no substantive reasoning as to what on earth is in the "Europe" article that a reader of "Andorra" would want to divert to. Try to understand that while I strongly support the smart linking approach, it is widely accepted and not the noisy one-person drum-kit you seem to be making it out to be. As GMW advises above, the right course of action is to propose at WP:LINK that the guideline be changed. But I must warn that you would need substantive examples to back up your case. I'm done here for a while with the circle treading. Tony   (talk)  03:15, 30 July 2009 (UTC)


 * At this point in the debate, I invite both Ckatz and Tony1 to forget whatever has happened in the past between them, and focus on the content that we're discussing. This is quickly turning into a toxic environment endemic to the MOSNUM and MOSLINK discussions of the date-delinking wars. I, for one, am neutral on the linking of Western Europe right now, as I have seen more bickering than substantial argument that would sway me. Dabomb87 (talk) 03:49, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Did I get this correct? Re:History
If I read the article correctly, the reason that Andorra, unlike the patches of land around it, isn't part of either France or Spain, is that in 1095 the Bishop of Urgell allowed the Lord of Caboet to become coruler in exchange for military defence against the Count of Urgell, establishing Andorra to fall under two cotitles, one Catalan, later Aragonian and eventually Spanish, and the other Navarran and then French. Is this correct? 82.139.87.198 (talk) 01:49, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Demographics
The article implies that there is not a single Spaniard from Catalonia living in Andorra. That seems very implausible. MaartenVidal (talk) 20:19, 8 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Yes, there are many Spaniards from Catalonia living in Andorra who do not have Andorran citizenship, and the majority of current Andorran citizens were originally Spaniards from Catalonia who acquired Andorran nationality after many years of residence in Andorra. The article says "Andorrans who are ethnically Catalans are a minority in their own country (31,363); Spaniards (not from Catalonia) (27,300), ..." I think it would be better to show separate statistics on citizens and foreign national residents. I'll see if I can find any such statistics. ..." 194.158.70.179 (talk) 14:35, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
 * It was not correct, you can see here: departament d'estadística. It don't say anything about "Spain (not Catalonia)" and don't say anything about from "Catalonia" (that could be from Spain or France).--Vilar 20:44, 11 November 2009 (UTC)


 * The article also implies that no Andorrans have a non-Catalan ethnic origin &mdash; "Andorrans (who are ethnically Catalans) are a minority in their own country (31,363)". The cited source does not seem to support such a claim at all. And it is plainly false because many Andorrans who acquired Andorran nationality are not of Catalan ethnicity, e.g. the Portugese and non-Catalan Spaniard portions of the immigrant population. I've removed the claim. 194.158.70.179 (talk) 00:56, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

World context
I am interested in the relationship of Andorra to the world at large. I would like to contribute with an image that includes the name of Andorra. Thanks--Camilo Sanchez (talk) 05:51, 13 November 2009 (UTC)


 * I don't see a source for that image or any of the 186 almost identical images on your userpage. Did you design them yourself? If so, that would count as original research which Wikipedia doesn't permit. We would need a reliable source that shows that that coat of arms is or has been used by the Principality of Andorra. 194.158.70.179 (talk) 01:12, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

Smallest Nation
There're no references. Is it the smallest? How about the Vatican City and Monaco? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Karljoos (talk • contribs) 00:33, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

The Vatican city is smallest at less than 1 square Kilometre.--Crimzon2283 (talk) 22:07, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Honours System
Does Andorra have an honours System because I found a website claiming to have an image of the 'Andorran Order of Merit'? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.69.53.192 (talk) 20:07, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

No, Andorra doesn't have Honours System... for the moment. But the Order of Merit you saw in liverpoolmedals.com is real, and was a really small issue done before the Constitution, in 1993. I could even say that this one is the only one awarded then. Now, this order doesn't exist, but the Order of Charlemagne was created in 2007 as the only order awarded by the Andorran Governement. As a Andorran, I am doing my best to create a Honours System that helps our Governement to decorate those that deserve to be decorated. For the moment, is composed of nine orders (includind the Order of Charlemagne) and medals as the "Police Merit Medal". All the medals have been designed by me (except the Order of Charlemagne). Andorra is a small country, and the access to Governement is quite easy.... Influences have a lot of importance too. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Alexeinikolayevichromanov (talk • contribs) 17:28, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

and sovereignty is shared between France and the Bishop of Urgell, Spain
Andorra is a full indipendent state where President of France and the Bishop of Urgell play just a representative role. I.E In San marino judges are all italian but no people say San Marino is a protectorate —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.193.45.7 (talk • contribs)

The above writer is correct because he/she read the Andorran constitution of 1993.! The constitution considers the 2 princes as 1 monarch. Yes, in Andorra 2=1.!! Andorra has sent ambassadors to France, Spain, Portugal, the EU Union, and the United Nations; it is fully sovereign, altho France and Spain provide security. Modern Andorra may be called either an elective principality or co-principality, but to say that it "shares" sovereignty is a false perception in my opinion.____Kaelin von Gross


 * I agree. Andorra is a co-principality. What is shared is not sovereignty, but regency. I changed the wording to "The rôle of monarch is shared between the President of the French Republic and the Bishop of Urgell, Catalonia, Spain." 85.94.175.61 (talk) 23:25, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * The Roman Catholic Diocese of Urgell includes part of Catalonia, Spain, but also the whole Principality of Andorra. I will replace "Bishop of Urgell, Catalonia, Spain" with "Bishop of Urgell, Catalan Countries", which instead is correct.--Ssola (talk) 16:55, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

I wonder if this can be explained in the article, as I find " It is known as a principality as it is a monarchy headed by two Co-Princes" unclear and misleading.

Discrepancies
I notice a discrepancy in the entry for Andorra in List of current heads of state and government. That gives Antoni Martí's title as Head of Government, but the Andorra article says Prime Minister. When we look at his biographical article, we find that he is shown as the "6th Prime Minister". Interestingly, that article gives further details on the co-heads of state, listing Joan Enric Vives Sicília as the Episcopal Co-prince and Nicholas Sarkozy as the French Co-prince, whereas List of current heads of state and government calls them merely "co-princes" and shows François Hollande instead.

Perhaps we could get all this information sorted out so that there are no discrepancies and readers are not confused? --Pete (talk) 20:17, 17 June 2013 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure these are really "discrepancies". One was out-of-date data - Sarkozy was co-prince until last year, but was replaced by Hollande. This simply hadn't been updated at Marti's biographical article, but now has been. Marti, as Prime Minister, is the Head of Government - in the same way as the Prime Minister of the UK is the UK's Head of Government. It's just two ways of describing him - though I agree that Marti's title should be changed to "Prime Minister" in the list, for the sake of continuity with others in that list . As for the co-princes, what you have mentioned is not a "discrepancy", but merely a use of adjectives. Andorra has two co-princes, both of whom hold office ex-officio - one by virtue of being Bishop of Urgell, and the other by virtue of being President of France; therefore to differentiate, it may be useful to refer to them as the "episcopal" co-prince and the "French" co-prince. The only thing here that was incorrect was the failure to update from Sarkozy to Hollande, but another Editor has already corrected that.  Timothy Titus Talk To TT  22:03, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Correction. Having looked again at the sources, the Andorran Government and the UN both suggest that Andorra doesn't use the title Prime Minister at all, so the List of current heads of state and government is also correct. PMs are also Heads of Government (as above), but in Andorra's case it seems that "Head of Government" is the only formal title, even if people in other countries might (understandably) refer to him as the PM. Looking through the articles originally quoted, I think everything has been updated now.  Timothy Titus Talk To TT  09:23, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

/* Languages */ Repeatedly introducing unsourced content
changed "Andorra is one of only four European countries (together with France, Monaco, and Turkey)", which originally cited the Council of Europe, a reliable source[1] per Wikipedia policies, to "Andorra is one of only three European countries (together with France and Monaco)" which is unsourced and contradicts the reliable source,

This is the second time this text has been changed in exactly the same way by an editor. Please would other editors help keep an eye out for future similar unsourced edits and revert them.

"1. Framework Convention for the Protection of National Minorities (FCNM) : National Minorities, Council of Europe, 14 September 2010." Thank you. 194.158.75.125 (talk) 01:57, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

Life expectancy
This statement seems a bit off: "The people of Andorra have one of the highest life expectancies in the world and as of December 2014, according to The Lancet, has the highest in the world - 81 years in 2013." Apart from the change in number (from "have" to "has"), if A. has the highest life expectancy, then it is not necessary to say it has one of the highest life expectancies. Can this be changed to "The people of Andorra have the highest life expectancy in the world - 81 years in 2013, as of December 2014"? (with the reference to the Lancet in the footnote) --Richardson mcphillips (talk) 23:10, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 3 one external links on Andorra. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20110812101130/http://www.creditandorra.ad/pdf/CreditXifres/2008/xifres_ANG_2008.pdf to http://www.creditandorra.ad/pdf/CreditXifres/2008/xifres_ANG_2008.pdf
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20090715233032/http://www.helitrans.ad:80/ to http://www.helitrans.ad/
 * Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20140522033240/http://www.irb.com/rankings/sportid=1/news/newsid=2070876.html to http://www.irb.com/rankings/sportid=1/news/newsid=2070876.html#usa+andorra+improve+rating+rankings

Cheers.—cyberbot II  Talk to my owner :Online 17:29, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 1 one external link on Andorra. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20150518082722/http://www.estadistica.ad/serveiestudis/web/exportar_banc_dades_csv.asp?formules=anualinici&any1=01/01/2008&any2=01/01/2008&codi_divisio=380&lang=1&codi_subtemes=59&codi_tema=10 to http://www.estadistica.ad/serveiestudis/web/exportar_banc_dades_csv.asp?formules=anualinici&any1=01/01/2008&any2=01/01/2008&codi_divisio=380&lang=1&codi_subtemes=59&codi_tema=10

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.

Cheers.—cyberbot II  Talk to my owner :Online 06:39, 26 February 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 2 external links on Andorra. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://archive.is/20100209181327/http://www.coprince-fr.ad/catala/elements.htm to http://www.coprince-fr.ad/catala/elements.htm
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.irb.com/rankings/sportid%3D1/news/newsid%3D2070876.html

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 19:28, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

Please correct grammar/clarify
In 1866 the syndic Guillem d'Areny-Plandolit led the reformist group in a Council General of 24 members, elected by suffrage limited to heads of families, replaced the aristocratic oligarchy that previously ruled the state.[64] I know this sentence doesn't make grammatical sense (nor is it clear), but I don't know enough about Andorra to know how to correct it in a hurry. Can someone else, please? I hate to see grammatical errors in (probably) the most commonly-used information source on the Web.71.127.13.55 (talk) 01:16, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

Andorra's southern neighbor.
Seeing as the Catalan Republic is no longer considered to exist. Should we 'again' mention Spain as the only country bordering Andorra on the south? GoodDay (talk) 17:23, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 4 external links on Andorra. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Replaced archive link https://web.archive.org/web/20140421050925/http://www.elcami.cat/principat-andorra/andorra/andorra-vella/margineda with https://web.archive.org/web/20141015125705/http://elcami.cat/principat-andorra/andorra/andorra-vella/margineda on http://www.elcami.cat/principat-andorra/andorra/andorra-vella/margineda
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www15.gencat.net/pres_casa_llengues/mapes/mapes.html?idioma=1&start=cercador
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.bondia.ad/cultura/390000-euros-rehabilitar-lexterior-i-obrir-els-jardins-de-la-casa-rossell
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20151214121805/http://www.aba.ad/pub/publicaciones/financial_system_2013.pdf to http://www.aba.ad/pub/publicaciones/financial_system_2013.pdf

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 10:06, 17 November 2017 (UTC)

External links modified (January 2018)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 2 external links on Andorra. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20130616031601/http://www.notretemps.com/argent/andorre-aligne-progressivement-sa,i29431 to http://www.notretemps.com/argent/andorre-aligne-progressivement-sa,i29431
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090227101123/http://ucblibraries.colorado.edu/govpubs/for/andorra.htm to http://ucblibraries.colorado.edu/govpubs/for/andorra.htm

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 09:02, 21 January 2018 (UTC)

Citing Latin documents as Catalan
Acta de Consagració i Dotació de la Catedral de la Seu d'Urgell is actually written in Latin, and should be cited as such, not as Catalan. At least something like "the Latin document known in Catalan as 'xxx'..." Ditto for Carta de Poblament, which presumably is entitled something like Charta populationis. 47.32.20.133 (talk) 17:33, 9 June 2018 (UTC)

About the Annexation by the Crown of Aragon
Hello, I will answer this question: ''citation? Crown of Aragon says Andorra was annexed in 1396 and 1512, unclear it was ever a part of Aragon before that?'' (written by User:Beland)

Andorra was briefly annexed by Martin of Aragon after the failure of Matthew, Count of Foix (and so Co-Prince as Count of Foix) trying to invade Aragon(ca) in 1396; and also briefly annexed after the Castilian-Aragonese invasion of Navarre in 1512, when Catherine of Navarre (and so Co-Princess as Queen of Navarra) was defeated and exilied, loosing part of their territories.

-Was ever Andorra a part of Aragon before that? Andorra was part of Aragon until the Paréage of Andorra in 1278 when the title-holders of Count of Foix and Bishop of Urgell became sovereigns of Andorra as Co-Principality.

-How is it known that Andorra was part of Aragon before 1278? It was delimited within the borders of the County of Urgell, part of the Crown of Aragon, in the Treaty of Corbeil (1258) (ref1).

-Did this annexations had any impact in Andorra? No: First because the County of Foix was restored inmediatly after the failure of Count Matthew (their heirs didn't loose the title of Count of Foix and Co-Prince of Andorra)(ref2), and then beacause The Andorrans continued paying tribute to fidelity and regularly paying the feudal tribute to the Princes of Albret and Borbón, heads (kings, heirs, lords) of Navarre and immediate heirs of the Counts of Foix (ref1).

-Why the Crown of Aragon did not claim Andorra after the annexations? Mostly because of the decision of Ferdinand II of Aragon to respect that Andorra remained in the same noble house that had ruled it for centuries as Co-Princes: the Counts of Foix, the same nobiliary house that his second wife Germaine of Foix was originally from (ref3). His grandson, Charles I respected this desicion and resigned any taxes from the Principality of Andorra in 1519 (ref4). Also Henry IV of France's 1607 Royal Edict ratified the Kings of France's co-sovereignty of Andorra (as heirs of the title of Counts of Foix and Bearn, Kings of Navarre, thebefore Co-Prince of Andorra) shared with the Bishop of Urgell (ref5). --JohnnyYakeYake (talk) 23:28, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

Taured
Is there someone who can help me figure out who and why the word Taured auto-refers to Andorra? What is the history of this specific edit? I will return periodically to see if I have received a response. 67.250.100.204 (talk) 03:25, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

The word taured is wrong, perhaps it should be taurmerde *bullshit it is a classic urban legend. The word is spanish / french for bull and merde for shit. Over time its corrupted to taured. It has many variants, and is a joke urban legend, playing on people not knowing both french and spanish.

It is because of the mystery of the "man from taured" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 119.95.237.68 (talk) 08:12, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

Interestingly it appears to be related to this story (whether true or hoax I have yet to ascertain). Clayton Rumley (talk) 20:27, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

The above story link is dead... but briefly, the word comes from a story about a man who showed up in the Tokyo airport in 1956 with a passport from a country called Taured. When asked to point this country out on a map, he pointed to Andorra, claiming that their map had his country's name wrong. Anyway... the story is supposed to suggest the possibility of inter-dimensional travel, presuming that this really happened and that the man was not crazy. Of course, it could have happened and he WAS crazy... I don't know; can't find a source. That's all I know. 12.31.187.178 (talk) 19:55, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
 * There is an article about the mystery: Taured mystery. Jonas Vinther • (Click here to collect your price!) 17:17, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

Someone should find out if Taured was ever a country there at any time. Perhaps it was pillaged thousands of years ago and is now modern day Andorra? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2604:2D80:8014:A6D4:C9EE:3DA5:48BE:A7C8 (talk) 22:25, 8 May 2016 (UTC)

He had a current passport, it seems. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.5.191.73 (talk) 02:02, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

This story appears originally in Jacques Bergier’s “Visa pour un autre terre”, 1974, so imo this should replace the reference to the 1989 publication as its first mention in print, I like the theory that the person was from "Taul Lleida" spain79.69.47.4 (talk) 11:53, 7 September 2016 (UTC)


 * Would it do to add this in a "In popular culture" section? I've seen worse. Kortoso (talk) 18:41, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

Taured is a river in Southern France and it takes about 6 and a half hours to get from Taured to Andorra. If the urban legend is at all based in truth, I would guess that the man was trying to tell the agents in Tokyo that he was from Taured in Southern France and it wasn't on the map. Directions from Taured to Andorra are available on Google Maps. Wes.ovall (talk) 20:29, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
 * These google maps directions go to a vineyard, not a river. It has a website: http://www.lestauredes.fr/ Marhawkman (talk) 06:11, 16 March 2020 (UTC)

In response to above
Surely then his passport would be issued from France then, but this is not the case as in the story the person states the county as Taured hence his passport should be issued from Taured. (posted by Logic) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 169.0.178.244 (talk) 00:14, 10 July 2018 (UTC)


 * Yes, his passport was in fact real and listed "Taured" as his native country. They put him up in a hotel. The next morning he vanished without a trace. I'm going to assume he was some sort of spy. https://topfoundfootagefilms.com/the-man-from-taured-the-tokyo-incidentAlexflambert (talk) 15:06, 6 November 2019 (UTC)


 * There is no such place as Taured, let alone a United Kingdom of Taured or a Taured that contains a place called Infopolis as asserted on the document in the photo on the web page for which you provided a link. Therefore, the man's passport was in fact fake. Conversely, if there was a United Kingdom of Taured which included a place called Infopolis, then he would have pointed to Taured on a map instead of Andorra, the immigration person would have said, "Oh, I see" and checked whether Taured citizens were permitted to enter Japan without a visa, would have found an answer on the comprehensive list that immigration agents in every country certainly have about all the nations of the world from which people might arrive, and there would have been no mystery. Largoplazo (talk) 16:46, 6 November 2019 (UTC)


 * Anyway, this is an alleged event involving a man with a fake document arriving in Japan and arbitrarily pointing to Andorra on a map when asked where Taured was supposed to be. It tells us nothing about Andorra, has nothing material to do with Andorra, and has no bearing on the content of this article. Therefore, it really isn't a proper topic of discussion for this page. Largoplazo (talk) 16:52, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Wow, you actually assumed the image shown in that link to be the actual passport encountered by Hareda Airport officials in July 1954 (not 1956). If you did any research at all into the case, you'd have learned that the man's personal affects disappeared with him when he vanished from the double-guarded hotel room that night (they had to have first come with him, after all, to be shown to the officials), which means that that image, which is a clear as crystal digital image and certainly not from a passport that's over 65 years old, is necessarily a "stage prop" designed to evoke the image in the reader's mind of personally encountering an official passport from a full nation (the authority to issue passports is held only by sovereign governments) that does not in fact exist ... in our temporal continuity. The data given in the actual lines of the stage prop are nonsense, the same as writing the year "19XX", etc., in movie prop items. Finally, your automatic assumption that a story of a man from an alternate universe is fake seems to be based on the logic of "It can't be, therefore it isn't", which is the exact logic used by some scientists of the early 1800s to explain why rocks, now called meteorites, do not fall from the sky. The idea of alternate realities is on the cutting edge of quantum theory, and is by no means a 'crank' concept. User:Chr.K. (talk) 02:05, 16 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Wow, you actually assumed that just because you've read this story on the Internet, any of this ever happened, and you chose to give greater weight to the possibility that it reflects a real event involving an interdimensional visitor than to the amply demonstrable fact that people make up fantastical stories all the time. Largoplazo (talk) 11:56, 16 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Another possibility has been recently discovered. It could be confused because the name was misspelled from Tuareg.  discussion link:  The more recent retellings seem to be mostly fiction, but there apparently really was someone detained at Haneda airport in Tokyo who had in fact presented a passport listing his nationality as Tuareg. Marhawkman (talk) 22:16, 14 March 2020 (UTC)
 * One person's idle speculation in a discussion by anonymous chit-chatters is not a "discovery". And it doesn't help there's no such country as Tuareg. Largoplazo (talk) 22:51, 14 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Though one weird thing about that discussion is someone's posting of a picture of an article that claims the passport included the name of a city called Tamanrasset&mdash;and then went on to lament that there's no such city either. Except that there is, and it's apparently considered a Tuareg capital&mdash;but, still, it isn't, and wasn't, a passport-issuing nation. And it wouldn't explain how Andorra got involved. Largoplazo (talk) 22:58, 14 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Tuareg may not currently be a country, but it could be used as a nationality regardless of that. Especially in the 50s as the Tuareg people were in the process of attempting to become an independent political entity. Questionable journalism aside, we know Mr. Zegrus was a real person, and that he really did go to Haneda Airport.  When you take the various accounts and arrange them into a time line one thing becomes notable.  The versions of the story in the early 80s were very scant on details.  Andorra is only mentioned in stories AFTER this point.  This suggests that it's inclusion is fiction not based on a real account.Marhawkman (talk) 06:09, 16 March 2020 (UTC)
 * At any rate, the seeming nonsensicality of a passport being issued by the nation of Tuareg is apparently why Mr. Zegrus was detained by customs at Haneda airport. Apparently he DID have such a passport, but the Japanese officials considered it invalid.Marhawkman (talk) 06:22, 16 March 2020 (UTC)

Claim makes no sense
The claim that Andorra is a tax haven makes no sense. Since Sarkozy is the monarch ruler of Andorra and he with Madame Merkel declared a war on tax avoidance, Sarkozy would surely send in the french foreign legion to crush Andorra if the tiny country was indeed be robbing France of much tax income!

Switzerland can help all tax fraudsters and avoid warnings from Germany's Merkel, because it has a powerful military and advanced, domestic weapon manufacturing industry, but Andorra is just a sub-sub-pixel on the map. 91.83.19.117 (talk) 21:57, 4 October 2009 (UTC)


 * You seem to be confusing the meanings of tax avoidance &mdash; legal methods of avoiding paying more than the minimum amount of tax required by law to be paid, and tax evasion &mdash; illegal methods of avoiding paying taxes required by law to be paid. A "tax haven" is a low-tax country or territory, i.e. a place where the people have a government that chooses to have significantly lower levels of taxation than governments do in most other countries. Since mid-2009, the low-tax countries &mdash; Andorra, Monaco, Switzerland, etc &mdash; have begun signing tax information exchange agreements (TIEAs) with the high-tax countries. This will help detect and deter tax evasion in future involving these countries. However, nothing can prevent tax evasion, which can, of course, occur in any country or countries.


 * An example may be helpful. If you live in France, and you happen to have investments in another country such as Denmark &mdash; the country with the world's highest overall levels of taxation &mdash; you might want and be able to move your investments out of Denmark into France, where the taxes you would have to pay are typically lower than in Denmark, and thus you would avoid paying the higher Danish taxes after the move &mdash; that is tax avoidance, which is legal, i.e. anybody is allowed to do it. If it was the other way round &mdash; you live in Denmark, but you have investments in France, where taxes are lower, and you hide the existence of those French investments from the Danish tax authorities, you would pay only French taxes but you would be avoiding paying the higher Danish taxes on those investments &mdash; that is tax evasion, which is illegal, i.e. nobody is allowed to do it. Tax avoidance is all about legally putting investments into a form that has lower taxes. Tax evasion is all about hiding the fact that there are any investments at all. 85.94.166.25 (talk) 11:02, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

If the article is correct, and Andorra has added a sales tax and an income tax to it's import tax and has joined tax reporting groups, how is it a "tax haven" MORE than any other country and deserving of that description? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.23.115.90 (talk) 20:31, 21 July 2018 (UTC)

I don't know who wrote this article, but the Head of State of France is JOINT monarch of Andorra with the Head of State of Spain. As such, the French Head of State would not be able to take unilateral action - such as sending in the French Foreign Legion - without consultation with the Spanish Head of State. Additionally, Switzerland does NOT have a powerful military. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.16.238.112 (talk) 03:23, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 17:50, 31 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Caldea des de dins.JPG

First World War
I have removed the claim that Andorra declared war in 1914, as the reference used directly contradicted this. See Talk:World War I for further discussion of this. DuncanHill (talk) 13:01, 12 March 2021 (UTC)

Official languages
In the "facts and figures" area, to the right (pardon my English, I'm Italian), the section "Official languages" reads: "Catalan and Spanish", and note 1 provided as evidence leads to the the Constitution of the Principality of Andorra. However, the latter says something else (art. 2: "Catalan is the official language of the State"), and this page too (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_Andorra) says the same. It doesn't make any sense to me.--WikiBathor (talk) 10:51, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Yes, that was a very recent change made by an IP editor who didn't cite any sources. It's been reverted, thanks! Hqb (talk) 11:34, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Co-principality
This article says that Andorra is a co-principality, but that link redirects to coregency, which specifically excludes Andorra in its definition. Can this contradiction be resolved? blameless 20:00, 13 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Andorra has been described as a co-principality for as long as I can remember. I've just posted an objection at Talk:Coregency. Largoplazo (talk) 21:06, 13 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your comment there. I did some research and I believe I've addressed this. blameless  00:05, 19 March 2022 (UTC)