Talk:André Messager

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This article was automatically assessed because at least one article was rated and this bot brought all the other ratings up to at least that level. BetacommandBot 02:16, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Messager's recordings
I only have the Saint-Saens prelude and the two Delibes pieces (on CD VG 665 001) but looking at the Holoman link, my understanding is that all the pieces recorded (including those not issued) lasted four and a half minutes (to fit on one side) but that the length of the Rimsky piece and Rouet d'Omphale meant that only extracts of these could be recorded to fit a side. Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 21:29, 19 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks. I think it should say this more clearly.  I'll let Tim give it a shot.   -- Ssilvers (talk) 03:04, 20 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I concur. Will do — Tim riley (talk) 07:18, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

Done. I have also added dates where available in the following paragraphs, as suggested by Ssilvers. For the early 78 individual numbers I cannot find the original dates, and it would be misleading to give the dates of their CD reissues. Dates are given for all the recordings of the LP and CD eras. — Tim riley (talk) 09:47, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

Recent UK productions
Despite his succession of English hits, his English wife and his Covent Garden post, I am concerned not to overload this article with British references. I hesitate, therefore, to mention the following UK productions of recent years, and would be grateful for comment on whether to do so or not. Fortunio was given at Grange Park Opera in 2001; L'Amour Masque: the French company Opera de Tours brought it to the Edinburgh Festival in 2005; Véronique was done at the Buxton Festival in 2009. — Tim riley (talk) 08:38, 20 August 2010 (UTC)


 * I don't mind mentioning them. I believe that the correct remedy to "too much x" is to add some "y", not to deprive the reader of "x", so long as x is notable.  -- Ssilvers (talk) 14:35, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

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Second marriage
At the peer review of this article, one reviewer asked if we knew how long Messager's second marriage lasted, as one source merely said the couple later separated. I still haven't found the answer in any source, but I just note here that in her memoirs, Mary Garden recalled that Madame Messager was present when Debussy played through Pelléas et Mélisande for the cast before rehearsals for the premiere began in 1902. (Mary Garden: Mary Garden's Story, 1951, p. 62)  Tim riley  talk    12:39, 11 April 2018 (UTC)


 * This states that they were still married in 1908. What does the 1911 census say?  Can you have "Jack" access it? -- Ssilvers (talk) 18:39, 11 April 2018 (UTC)


 * Her NYT obit calls her his "widow". I bet she has a Times obit too. -- Ssilvers (talk) 18:42, 11 April 2018 (UTC)


 * Here is a photo of her. ... and more photos -- Ssilvers (talk) 18:44, 11 April 2018 (UTC)


 * Do you have access to this biography of her? -- Ssilvers (talk) 18:53, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

This is about their daughter Madeleine (nicknamed "Bibi") and says that she was the first wife of Jacques Henri Lartigue. -- Ssilvers (talk) 18:46, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Never crossed my mind she might have her own article in Grove, but I've checked it out and it doesn't help. I'm fairly sure she and AM were never divorced – merely separated, whether formally or not – so "widow" would be right. She is listed as AM's wife in Who's Who right up to the end of his life. Good point about the 1911 census. I have access via the Wellcome Library and will look her up there. If she is listed and AM isn't it would surely be of significance in this context.  Tim riley  talk    19:03, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
 * I've checked the obits in The NYT, The Times and Le Figaro, and there's nothing in there about her separating from Messager. (Not the sort of thing obits mentioned in 1938, so not a great surprise.) No trace of her in the 1911 UK census. That doesn't prove she was still living with Messager, or that she didn't have a house in England: she could have been abroad on holiday, Still, the fact that their 12-year-old daughter is also not found in the census does slightly suggest that they were living abroad, whether with Messager or not one cannot say. I leave this on this talk page as reference (such as it is) until such time as anything more definite comes to light.  Tim riley  talk    20:39, 12 April 2018 (UTC)

The website of the Association l'Art Lyrique Français reproduces a 1925 picture of Messager and a wifely-looking woman (scroll down to near the bottom of the page). I can't decide if I think she does or doesn't look like a middle-aged version of the young woman in the People Maven and National Portrait Gallery photos, mentioned earlier in this talk-page thread. But I think she probably is. Though Messager had affairs, I've seen nothing in any biography to suggest he had a live-in mistress, and this quite formal picture does rather convey respectable domesticity.  Tim riley  talk    08:56, 16 April 2018 (UTC)
 * my guess would be a daughter or niece - she looks young. Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 19:35, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

Split content to List of compositions by André Messager
The comprehensive work list and its footnotes can be shown in List of compositions by André Messager, only selected works in the main article.Myomyomyomyon (talk) 10:28, 4 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Two things: first, the list in the Messager article is much more detailed than that on the 'list of works' page, and the former should replace the latter if we want two separate articles, though why we need two articles is not obvious to me. Secondly, if we do move the list from the present page to the list page we most definitely don't need a "selected works" remnant on the original page: selected by whom, on what criteria? – highly unencyclopedic. I can't think of a single FA on a composer where we have such a thing.  Tim riley  talk   11:10, 4 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Support I guess. Would agree with Tim above that the best approach would be to just replace the composition list with the list in this article and not leave a "selected works" section. Having a "selected works" section is an extremely old and now virtually unused practice. Aza24 (talk) 09:14, 5 November 2020 (UTC)
 * I think it's probably time to remove that tag and move on. Thoughts?  Tim riley  talk   21:03, 30 January 2021 (UTC)
 * I agree with removal of the tag. If the List of compositions article is not more detailed, it should be deleted and redirected to this section. -- Ssilvers (talk) 03:03, 31 January 2021 (UTC)
 * I've been (somewhat) bold and both removed the tag and redirected the page in question. Aza24 (talk) 10:21, 13 March 2021 (UTC)

Conducting
The article already quotes Hahn, but I found an interesting bit in: Bernard Gavoty. Reynaldo Hahn – Le musicien de la Belle Epoque. Éditions Buchet / Chastel, Paris, 1976, p59. It says that according to Hahn, as quoted by Gavoty, [re L'Île de Rêve, 1898] Messager was the first theatre conductor to break with the tradition of "conducting within" a pit orchestra, to standing fully at the front of the orchestra facing all the musicians and singers. I wondered if this was worth weaving in somehow? Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 21:10, 28 June 2023 (UTC)


 * This sounds very dubious to me. Worldwide?  ? -- Ssilvers (talk) 04:35, 29 June 2023 (UTC)


 * I didn't know about this "conducting within" tradition. Now I look into the matter I find that an engraving of the première of Lully's Alceste (1674) shows a man, possibly Lully himself, standing among the instrumentalists, facing the stage and beating time, and an engraving from the Illustrated London News, 8 December 1856, p. 563, shows the conductor at Covent Garden standing between the orchestra and the stage, with his back to the orchestra and audience. On the other hand, I think I have seen sketches of Verdi, Wagner and Sullivan in the pit, conducting from what is now the usual position, facing all the players and singers. If "conducting within" remained the general practice in French opera houses until Messager's day I'd feel more comfortable if we had another source to back up what Gavoty says Hahn said. I've just found online a 900+ page tome on the history of conducting, and will look through it when I have time and report back here. –  Tim riley  talk   07:42, 29 June 2023 (UTC)
 * One piece of corroborative detail: in his treatise on conducting, Berlioz, noting that in the opera house (as opposed to the concert hall) the conductor did not face the orchestra, objected that "This way has the disadvantage . . . when the conductor turns his back to the orchestra, as in theatres . . . of permitting only a small number of musicians to perceive the very important indication of the second beat". I'm reasonably persuaded that putting the conductor in the middle of the orchestra, or between the orchestra and the stage, was at one time the done thing, and I have no reason to suppose that Hahn erred in saying that Messager was the first chef d'orchestre to abandon it in French opera pits, but I should feel happier if we could have it unequivocally confirmed from another source. If we can, then I should say it's worth a succinct mention in the article. –  Tim riley  talk   11:48, 29 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your very comprehensive reply, and yes it would be good to have corroboration from somewhere else. Photos and engravings might also help. I might try to locate that book next time I am at 35 St Martin's Street. Anyway, I thought I would just mention it.Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 21:59, 29 June 2023 (UTC) (I should add that Gavoty/Hahn claim on that page that it was at this time that choristers began to move, and wear make-up; presumably they did not up to then... interesting stuff) Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 22:02, 29 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Ah, the Westminster reference library! I used to work five minutes away, at 16 Carlton House Terrace, overlooking The Mall. A much loved Italian restaurant, Val Taro (where Ssilvers and I have dined when he was in London), right opposite was an additional attraction, but the owners retired at about the time I did, and it is now a workspace for the National Gallery. Heigh ho!  Tim riley  talk   14:00, 30 June 2023 (UTC)
 * The second floor keeps me out of mischief, sort of. Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 21:31, 30 June 2023 (UTC)