Talk:Andrés Bonifacio/Archive 1



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 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the . Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

move. &mdash; Nightst a  llion  (?) 09:47, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Survey
Please add * Support  or  * Oppose  followed by a brief explanation, then sign your vote using "&#126;&#126;&#126;&#126;".
 * Support as nom. David Kernow 19:40, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Support Gryffindor  00:26, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Support Michael David 00:51, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Oppose Common English usage see Discussion --Philip Baird Shearer 14:48, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Oppose Correct Filipino usage. I am Filipino, born and raised in the Philippines. You can check libraries and legal records that prove that we never use 'é' nor 'á' (special characters) in our language.  The only special letters we use are 'ñ', 'ng' and 'll'. Maurice Ycaza 12:17, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Discussion
--Philip Baird Shearer 14:48, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
 * about 56,600 English pages for "Andres Bonifacio" -"Andrés Bonifacio" -wikipedi
 * about 114 English pages for -"Andres Bonifacio" "Andrés Bonifacio" -wikipedia
 * I'm assuming these numbers are results from an internet search engine; the problem with this so-called "Google test" is that it yields popular usage, which is not necessarily the most accurate or informative. At its worst, it yields the lowest (read least accurate, informative, reliable, etc) common denominator. Yours, David Kernow 18:19, 20 May 2006 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Google or not, if you want to be accurate, diacritics are only for accents. It is not official or accurate to use diacritcs in the name of Andres Bonifacio. This discussion and vote is invalid.--Jondel 05:41, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Pieces of evidences of the Real First Philippine President
There are pieces of evidences found by Dr. Pio Valenzuela somewhere in the province of Bulacan pointing to the establishment of a national government for the Philippines. With Andres Bonifacio as its Pangulo (President), he referred to the Philippines as Katagalugan not recognizing the Spanish colonizers' name for the Philippines in honor of the then Spanish King.


 * See Katagalugan. I don't see any mention of A. Bonifacio. --Jondel 03:31, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

The word 'Katagalugan' was only a part of the title of the republic given by Andres Bonifacio with Emilio Jacinto and others, mostly members of the Katipunan. The papers found in Bulacan revealed that the said republic was formed in secret during the Spanish colonization of the Philippines.


 * The entire title is "Ang Haring Bayang Katagalugan" (The Sovereign Tagalog Nation). It may also be noted that in the questionnaires handed out to initiates of the KKK, there is an explanation as to why they chose to call the nation 'Katagalugan'. I cannot translate it verbatim, but it says that it does not refer merely to Tagalogs-- All persons born in the archipelago, whether Visayan, Ilocano, Pampango (and even the mestizos) are all Tagalogs. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nightvisiongoggles (talk • contribs) 19:53, 8 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Based on the note I made above, 'Katagalugan' therefore is an alternative name for the entire archipelago which reflects the desire to discard the colonial yoke. However, this was never actually made explicit, since Bonifacio and the KKK still refer to the country as Filipinas.

As for Bonifacio's disputed presidency, during the Tejeros convention (before the elections were held), arguments were made by the Magdiwang group as well as other members of the KKK that the establishment of a new government was no longer necessary since the KKK already has functioning local councils in Luzon and parts of Visayas, of which Bonifacio was considered head. Also, despite the Magdalo's assertion that the role of the KKK is over, Bonifacio was still given the presiding role over the infamous election at the Tejeros friar estate. Nightvisiongoggles (talk) 15:45, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

I oppose the move. Correct name should be Andres Bonifacio

 * Oppose Correct Filipino usage. I am Filipino, born and raised in the Philippines. You can check libraries and legal records that prove that we never use 'é' nor 'á' (special characters) in our language.  The only special letters we use are 'ñ', 'ng' and 'll'. Maurice Ycaza 12:17, 28 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Spanish is not a Philippine language.


 * More important than that, Bonifacio lived during Spanish times, when people still knew how to use diacritics properly (e.g., José Rizal), well into World War II.


 * Yes but this is the English wikipedia and the official current name in the Philippines should be used which does not have diacritrics.--Jondel 13:24, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

More important than that, this an English written encyclopedia. Almost all books I've seen use Andres. If the only reason was to guide the reader on how to pronounce his name, then make a spoken version of this article. -- Howard  the   Duck  12:56, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I understand where you’re coming from, but this has nothing to do with stress or pronunciation. To add to that, we’ve also seen a lot of books writing names as Hakkinen, Ataturk, or Miguel Lopez de Legaspi (wrong on two counts), or leaving out the ñ in place names such as Las Pinas and Paranaque. I don’t suppose these and numerous other examples justify them being emulated in Wikipedia.

This should resolve this
Click the image on the right and post here how the paper bill spelt Bonifacio's name. -- Howard  the   Duck  15:17, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
 * José Rizal’s name has also been written without diacritics in peso bills and coins since the Marcos era.
 * But it was recommended to use an "é," while the "é" in Andrés was rarely, if ever used. -- Howard  the   Duck  14:59, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Moved again
Consensus hasn't been reached. Why was it moved? -- Howard  the   Duck  05:56, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree. There never was a consensus, even previously on whether to move Andrés Bonifacio to Andres Bonifacio. In fact, that action went against the majority vote.
 * Where was this originally placed, anyway? -- Howard  the   Duck  06:14, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Eh, did we not do a Manual of Style for Philippine articles that addressed this? I was putting it in line with that since Bonifacio is a historical figure. --Chris S. 04:42, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

To Jondel
I see that the article has been renamed, re-renamed, re-re-renamed, then re-re-re-renamed. Personally, I have no qualms about retaining the US-keyboard-inputtable title. (We have such a policy for—even pre-1946—Filipino’s names in the Tagalog Wikipedia.) However, we should be at least consistent with this, dropping as well the diacritic from “Jos é Rizal” if we are to do so with “Andr é s Bonifacio”, or retaining the diacritic in the latter should we retain it in the former.

As for where the Katipunero’s name comes from, the name Andrés (English Andrew) comes from Spain. Consonant clusters (as in the /dr/ in the Katipunero’s name) are not native to Philippine languages; these were imported from none other than Spain.

As for the official name, there was only one way to write one’s Spanish name during the Spanish and (early) American eras, and that was correctly with diacritics.


 * Ok. I do wish I could see his signature or birth certificate to see if there is a diacritic or not. Anyway, I say that his name has diacritics at the US library of congresss (or is it ?) at www.loc.gov. That should be authoritive enough. Maybe Philippine textbooks and need to be corrected. Most of us (Filipinos) are used to seeing the name without diacritics. (I know, this is not the right way to write the name). I probably won't be renaming this but who knows in the future(?) somebody might rename again. --Jondel 22:44, 19 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Birth certificates were not in existence during the Spanish era, they came into existence - and only in Manila - shortly after the arrival of the Americans. However, there are baptismal records. I've had 8 years of experience researching Philippine baptismal records from the 19th century and more often then ever, they are written with accents.  You have to remember that the Philippines was a Spanish colony and Spanish was the official language hence we treat Spanish era just as we would with any contemporary individual from any Spanish-speaking country.


 * Furthermore, even though this is the English Wikipedia, you will find that the biographical articles of people from Spanish-speaking countries are written with accents even if the American press routinely omits them (e.g., Evita Perón vs. Peron & Thalía vs. Thalia); heck even Slobodan Milošević's name is with the usual Serbian diacritics. The compromise I laid out in the Philippine moS is based on the Japanese one. See Manual of Style (Japan-related articles). --Chris S. 05:03, 20 October 2006 (UTC)


 * My take: It's a case-by-case basis. Rizal scholars insist the correct form is with the diacritic. I haven't seen Bonifacio scholars yet. Did Agoncillo in History of the Filipino People use Andrés? -- Howard  the   Duck  06:16, 21 October 2006 (UTC)


 * This wouldn't work due to inconsistent application; in general English-language history books usually do not indicate the diacritics of historical subjects. But yet, despite that these subjects have the diacritics included in their name. The normal Wikipedia convention apparently is to use the name in the context that it appeared for that person at that time as in the aforementioned Perón, Milošević, Simón Bolívar, or even for modern-day subjects like Hugo Chávez and Jean Chrétien. --Chris S. 08:57, 21 October 2006 (UTC)


 * But those people use their name with diacritics, but we don't know how Bonifacio did this. (When did Filipinos drop the use of diacritics, anyway, or did its use is widespread?) -- Howard  the   Duck  14:07, 21 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Being born in the Spanish era, we can safely assume he did since his contemporaries did. Diacritics were dropping during the first half of the 20th century under American rule and long after Bonifacio. Letters written by Bonifacio are available online, however he signed them And. Bonifacio. --Chris S. 17:54, 21 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't know if there are still any disputes, but the book "The Tragedy of the Revolution" by Adrian Cristobal includes some actual-size copies of Bonifacio's letters, and based on memory (I will return to the National Library to verify this) I can recall that he signs his name with a diacritic. Nightvisiongoggles (talk) 17:30, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

Chinese??
this article is connected to the 'Chinese Filipinos' category. Is it a fact that Bonifacio is of partial Chinese ancestry and this can be correctly placed in the article or should the category simply be deleted from connection to this article as not supported by fact? Thanks Hmains 23:00, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Bakata-bakata
Guys, this is the English wikipedia. Please give we non-speakers of Tagalog a break. The following is mostly incomprehensible to most non-Tagalog-speaking readers:

Official letters and one appointment paper of Bonifacio addressed to State Secretary Jacinto reveal Bonifacio's various titles and designations, as follows:[9] Pangulo ng Kataastaasang Kapulungan (President of the Supreme Council) Ang Kataastaasang Pangulo (The Supreme President) Pangulo nang Haring Bayang Katagalugan (President of the Sovereign Nation of Katagalugan) < ang "nang" ay ginagamit para sa pandiwa Note: "Bayan" means both "people" and "country" Ang Pangulo ng Haring Bayan May tayo nang K.K. Katipunan nang mga Anak ng Bayan, Unang nag galaw nang Panghihimagsik (The President Sovereign Nation Founder of the Katipunan, Initiator of the Revolution) Kataastaasang Panguluhan, Pamahalaang Panghihimagsik (Office of the Supreme President, Government of the Revolution).

citing as [9], In [http://www.ncca.gov.ph Sulyap Kultura. National Commission for Culture and the Arts], 1996. NCCA Site.

Please note WP:MOS -- Boracay Bill (talk) 14:35, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

Restored/added stuff badly needed
Just because one may not like it doesn't mean it shouldn't go here. Truth is painful. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 222.127.219.100 (talk) 04:30, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Expand template
Hi, I added the expand template to this article. We know in Philippine history that Bonifacio was a remarkable figure, we should expand his biography here by full length like what we had in Jose Rizal's article. Maybe we should include some entries involving his early life, his life among Tondo streets, his reasons why he created Katipunan (not just by the entry saying "in 1896, he created Katipunan", this may create conflict among readers). We must also emphasized his family life, his involvement in different conventions, his election to Tejeros (if I am not mistaken) which he almost shoot Daniel Tirona, Emilio Aguinaldo's death sentence to him and the letter's supposed agenda, his tragic death, post lives of his wife (I know that his wife Oryang de Jesus re-married another hero in the Revolution), and Bonifacio in popular culture. Also, I may want to point out, where does the accent on e of Andres Bonifacio came from? I do not find any references or books in Philippine history that Bonifacio have that accent. Or maybe he really did but he insisted not to use it. I think maybe we should follow the name which Bonifacio have chosen, not our own preferences of hispanization of his very name. And finally, we should expand this page so that there is an egality among the two main heroes of Philippine history (Rizal and Bonifacio).

Reply to my talk page.--I heart CE! (talk) 14:38, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

BY.....MARY GRACE TAYACTAC —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.177.74.135 (talk) 10:44, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Stuff I changed
This are some factual issues I found with the last revision by 122.104.186.141, who may also be 122.104.185.104:

Andrés Bonifacio y de Castro (November 30, 1863 — May 10, 1897) was a Filipino soldier
 * Possible, but not usually used.

Bonifacio is considered by Filipino historians to be the first president of the Philippines.
 * Only some.

Bonifacio was born to Don Santiago Bonifacio, and Doña Catalina de Castro of Zambales
 * Possible as marks of respect but in his day this was for nobility.

He worked as a almacenero (warehouseman and clerk)
 * He is never called that in Philippine history books. This wrongly replaced bodeguero. Almacenero may be the word used now in modern Spanish, but bodeguero is the term most often found in texts. Found the actual terms.

Bonifacio was a political activist
 * Possible, not often used though, but works in general; Rizal was one too; moved to lead.

..who was known to have read ... Victor Hugo's Les Miserables, Eugène Sue's Le Juif errant and José Rizal's novels Noli Me Tangere (Touch Me Not) and El Filibusterismo (The Reign Of Greed). He was a ... member of the Spanish Grand Lodge (Gran Oriente Español). . In 1892 he joined Rizal's La Liga Filipina (The Philippine League)
 * If Les Miserables and The Wandering Jew are not translated, why give Rizal's titles in English? If La Liga is given first later, why put Spanish Grand Lodge first?

Together with other members, Bonifacio revived the La Liga Filipina and was active in organizing rebel groups.
 * The Liga was not a rebel organization.

Bonifacio established the 'Katipunan and formed a rebel army and government in Manila
 * Army, not yet, government, gradually came into being.

The upper class members, favoring government reforms established the Cuerpo de Compromisarios (Corporation of compromises)
 * The English translation is not found in books I've read

Each province and municipality it governed had a Supreme Council and leaders,
 * No, there was one supreme council and lots of junior councils

Bonifacio wrote several documents for the organization's publication which included the Kalayaan (Freedom) novels.
 * Kalayaan is the name of the newspaper.

There were two rival Katipunan factions in Cavite, the Magdalo (Honour) ...and the Magdiwang (Celebration).
 * Magdalo comes from Mary Magdalene but it probably also means the verb "visit" in Tagalog. Magdiwang is probably the verb "celebrate". No English translations in sources.

In their disputes Aguinaldo and other Magdalo soldiers claim that Bonifacio became the leader of the Magdiwang, receiving the title Hari ng Bayan (Leader of the People) with Álvarez as his second in command.
 * Rather controversial statement as arranged in previous edit is cited by references which in fact rebut it. Stuff about this being discounted was cut and is now restored.

He requested for unity among the army to establish his authority, but these were never provided.
 * Bonifacio requested for minutes of a meeting. Stuff lost in condensing sentences.

Bonifacio ... was voted second on command of the army.
 * No, he wasn't. Stuff lost in condensing again.

The Primera República Filipina (First Philippine Republic) of Aguinaldo's government was inaugurated during the Philippine-American War in 1899.
 * The republic was not yet called the first and it was inaugurated before that war started.

Bonifacio demanded a retraction, and when his statements was ignored by Aguinaldo, he withdrew his gun and shot one of the soldiers.
 * Bonifacio talked to Tirona, who ignored him, and Bonifacio explicitly did not shoot him (but almost did).

I don't intend to offend anyone. Of course, this being Wiki, people are welcome to edit my edits; condense sentences if you like, but don't change the meaning. Uthanc (talk) 08:14, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

K.K.K. Flag
Andres Bonifacio was the founder of the K.K.K maybe the Flag of the K.K.K should be included. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 119.12.76.230 (talk) 14:19, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
 * No. It is enough for a whole section to describe him as the founder of Katipunan. Inserting the image of Katipunan saying he is the founder will give redundancy.-- JL 09 q?c 14:34, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Early life and family background
I see conflicting statements in this section: "He was orphaned in his late teens - his mother died of tuberculosis in 1881 and his father followed a year after.[9]" According to this sentence and the reference, he was 18 (approximately) when his mother died and 19 when his father died.

"Bonifacio’s early education started in the Guillermo Osmena School. But, unfortunately, his parents died when he was 14 years old.[10]" According to this sentence and the reference, he's only 14 when both his parents die.

Which is it? Esaons (talk) 12:42, 30 November 2010 (UTC)


 * I see that this edit added the first assertion, but I was unable to find support for the details in the cited source. I've edited the assertion to reflect what I did find in the cited source and specified the page number. That removed the age 18 and 19 assertions. I've left the age 14 assertion in because the source confirms it, but I've tagged the source verify credibility. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 23:50, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Trial and execution section - lead para
This edit caught my eye because of the typo. I reverted revised it because it seemed to be inserting an expression  of editorial opinion ("therefore") into a description of what historians have asserted in cited sources. I happen to have the Constantino book on my bookshelf, so I looked at pages 190-191, which don't seem to support the article assertion. I saw that the following paragraph began "In contrast, Renato Constantino writes ...", citing pages 190-205 of the same Constantino book seemingly asserting that Constantino contradicts himself in overlapping portions of that book cited for those two positions contrasted in the article.

I looked back in the article history, and see that the initial paragraph of the section initially appeared in this February 2009 edit, which asserted

"Historians have condemned the trial of the Bonifacio brothers as unjust. The jury was entirely composed of Aguinaldo's men; Bonifacio's defense lawyer acted more like a prosecutor as he himself declared Bonifacio's guilt and instead appealed for less punishment; and Bonifacio was not allowed to confront the state witness for the charge of conspiracy on the grounds that the latter had been killed in battle, but later the witness was seen with the prosecutors."

also citing the Constantino book which the current version of the article cites to support the assertion saying

"Historians have described Bonifacio's actions after the Tejeros Convention as counter-revolutionary,therfore the charge of treason justified, and his elimination even necessary to ensure unity of the Filipino revolutionaries."

Considering the contrast between the first two paragraphs of this section re Constantino, I reverted the first portion of the initial paragraph back to the Feb 2009 version, still citing the Constantino book. I added the cite of the Guerrero book which was present in that version back in, though I have not seen that book. I also left the cite of the Villanueva book in place, though I have not seen that book and have no idea what it might say. I've also retained the sentence from the current version which is supported by a cite of an Agoncillo book.

Further improvements, clarifications, or corrections would be welcome. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 01:23, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

Separate article on the trial and execution of Bonifacio
Should there be a separate article on the trial and execution of Bonfiacio, a la Execution of Saddam Hussein where there could be a more extensive discussion of the dispute and the consequences, including cultural references. --Bruce Hall (talk) 05:39, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Date formats
The date formats were in mdy until Bonifacio Day 2011 when it was changed dmy. I had changed it back to mdy as that's the most frequently used date format in the Philippines. – H T  D  02:25, 30 November 2014 (UTC)


 * Also, that also changed the spellings to British English ones for no reason at all. Most had been reverted since then but I'll take care of anything that people had missed out. – H T  D  02:26, 30 November 2014 (UTC)

There's a sentence in the Capture, trial and death section which reads:

I am unable to parse this; it isn't clear to me who the person(s?) referred as "who" are. A rewrite would be useful. There's a supporting cite, but I don't have access to the cited source and cannot verify this there. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 00:57, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

Aguinaldo, the convention, and the battle of Peres Dasmariñas
While making this edit, I noticed an apparent disconnect between this article and the Battle of Perez Dasmariñas article. This article (now, after my edit) says that when the election was held on 22 March, Aguinaldo was "involved in the battle of Perez Dasmariñas, which was then ongoing." However, the article on the battle says, "From March 7 to 24, a stalemated battle between the revolutionary army of Crispulo Aguinaldo, while taking over General Emilio Aguinaldo’s leadership in battle, ...". This apparent disconnect between this article and that other one should be resolved, and Aguinaldo's whereabouts and circumstances on 22 March should be clarified. I would try to do that myself, but I am presently traveling and do not have reference material which might supply relevant details with me. I do see that this source indicates that Emilio Aguinaldo was in Imus, Cavite while his brother Crispin was the on-scene battle commander in Perez Dasmarinas. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 02:44, 24 June 2016 (UTC)

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