Talk:Andrea Bocelli/Archive 2

Criticism section etc
It is quite clear that something needs to be done on this article. The criticism section could do with being expanded so that it not only covers the criticism but also expands upon it and explains why the criticism exists and from where it comes. Having just had a read through one of the sources used from the Sydney Morning Herald (n the lead), there seems to be plenty of information in that article which can be used, as well as information taken from one of the other sources from the criticism section. In addition the source templates could well do with being used rather than just a link to the URL. I have already inserted the "news" template for the source in the Lead.

It is also quite clear that there is differing opinion about how to describe Bocelli. For a long time the article lead called him something like an Operatic tenor classical crossover singer (or something like that as I haven't gone back and checked for the exact phrase used). However recent edits have changed to read "popera". Initially this was added unsourced and was removed by different users and added back in (again unsourced) by other users. Now a source has been added which has the "popera" title. Fair enough it would seem. However, that same source also describes Bocelli as an "Operatic tenor". So firstly the source used to back up calling him an Operatic pop (the compromise from popera) tenor rather than Operatic tenor isn't as clear cut as it would seem. I have no view one way or the other about what Bocelli should be called and no strong opinion about him as a singer. Is there perhaps another source somewhere which would clearly show one way or the other (and not peoples opinions about what he should be called)? I do though intend later adding the "in use" tag shortly and working on improving the article so that it has more sources for verifiability, so that all content is either sourced or at least the "fact" tag is added and so on. ♦Tangerines♦ · Talk 20:57, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I'd take a lead from the Mario Lanza article and describe him as a popular singer who has performed in opera. Whatever views may be expressed on the quality of his singing he is a Tenor.

As for criticism, just remember that you need to differentiate between fact and opinion and recognise that this is a multi-million selling artist. Some serious music critics may not like his work and it may be easy to find sources for that, but their opinions shouldn't be given undue weight. I seem to recollect that many serious music critics didn't like Maria Callas either. Mighty Antar (talk) 23:26, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

It was especially bizarre for critics to attempt to prove Bocelli's lack of singing skills by comparing him to Pavarotti. There are very few tenors in the world who could be compared, to their advantage, to Pavarotti. There was even a complaint that Bocelli didn't have Pavarotti's "brightness" of tone. They must be referring to his famous "ping", which is unique. Almost no one has it.

The harsh, relentless tone of criticism toward Bocelli's singing is peculia. It's really only explainable as a strategy for punishing him: some critics can't bear that he is so successful and so adored inspite of his imperfect (but very pleasant and definitely listenable) tenor. Younggoldchip (talk) 21:08, 29 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks for that, I am in the middle of redoing it all and will start adding edits soon. I will have a read of the Mario Lanza article as you suggest. What I am trying to do though is to expand upon recent edits and also to add more sources as at present there are too few sources. I do intend on balancing out the criticism section as at present I don't believe it does seem balanced, nor present to people who know little of the subject any background to this criticism. Once I've finished of course then it can be checked for accuracy etc and see if I get it anywhere near right. ♦Tangerines♦ · Talk 23:32, 19 January 2008 (UTC)


 * OK all done. If I have made mistakes then perhaps someone could amend them. It has been a pretty big job and I have also spent time sourcing much of the content. I think (if I recall correctly) there was only the one piece this - "A spin-off single to Time to Say Goodbye called "Time to Say Hello" has been rumoured to be in the works for a 2008 release" which I wasn't sure about though I have left it in but with a tag. I have also amended the criticism section so that it is a lot more explanatory and also so that it is as NPOV as I can possibly get it. I have for instance explained where some criticism came from (a review) what it was about (which performance) who was criticising etc. ♦Tangerines♦ · Talk 00:24, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Bocelli features on the Classicalx crossover singers site and, as I understand it, is one of the most hated of popera singers by the classical purists. I was under the impression that he had never performed in an opera, which is quite different from appearing on a recording of an opera's music. Quite apart from anything else, his blindness would make it extraodinarily difficult. Not being able to see the conductor may not be an insuperable problem, but when it comes to an opera with much acting, it would surely be difficult. I thought he was usually referred to as "popera", but will search for sources. Stunz (talk) 01:09, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

The Boheme listed was not an opera, just a recording of the opera's music. Werther was: http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9A0DE5D7173BF932A35752C1A96F958260&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all Stunz (talk) 01:45, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Operatic pop and Popera is the same thing, and bocelli has preformed in many operas and yes it is hard for a blind person to act but he still did, and does, cause he is preforming in a new one in march and for more information watching his bio done by the BBC in 2007 on youtube will be more then enough —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ahmad123987 (talk • contribs) 06:54, 28 February 2009 (UTC)


 * I have a question. But at first I want to tell you that I am from Germany and that I cannot speak English very well. So if I express myself in a strange way please tell me. Now my question: How is it possible that a person like Bocelli just earns negaitve critics? I am a very big fan of him and so you can say that I just watch for his honor and do not have eyes for bad sides of his singing. Moreover, I am not an expert in music but I think I have enough shrewdness to say that he is a good singer and so it seems to be impossble for me that in the english Wikipedia I just can read negative critics. But sadly I did not find pages which deal with content like this. So is there anyone who can support me? If you want to correspond with me about this topic visit [|this page]. This is my german account. I hope there is someone becuase I do not want to get despaired about this. Thanks 80.132.105.122 (talk) 21:00, 23 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I made a mistake. You are not able to visit my account with the link I gave. Just go to the german Wikipedia and then to the name "Abberline". 80.132.96.30 (talk) 13:03, 24 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I agree the person who added the criticism paragraph did it so this page wouldn't be uniquely from the point of view of Bocelli's fans. However because of that, he wrote an extremely negative paragraph lacking balance. I think the paragraph should be divided in 2 parts, the first being the paragraph it self (since it is all negative), and the second containing positive reviews, and trust me there are many, especially reviews that are more recent, I mean most of the quotes used are from the beginning of Bocelli's carrier, plus people like Pavarotti, Domingo, Carerras, Fleming, and many extremely respected conductors have praised him and his contribution to opera and to classical music; I think their opinions should be mentioned in the criticism category, since the public cares more about their views then that of some unknown critic who thinks he speaks for them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ahmad123987 (talk • contribs) 22:35, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Translate
This English version of the article is missing some information. Couldn't someone translate the Spanish version of the article? I would have said Italian version of the article, but I took a look at it, and it was even smaller than the English version.

Fair use rationale for Image:MIDG AUDIO hi.ogg
Image:MIDG AUDIO hi.ogg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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BetacommandBot (talk) 12:52, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

buna
sunt un admirator al tau di romania si imi place muzica ta si efortul dar si pasiunea pentru muzica si pentru ceva placul sufletului —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.36.220.30 (talk) 17:30, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

paul
sunt un admirator al tau di romania si imi place muzica ta si efortul dar si pasiunea pentru muzica si pentru ceva placul sufletului —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.36.220.30 (talk) 17:32, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Rap?
Honestly? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fanofspeed (talk • contribs) 04:46, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Dr. Bocelli
Bocelli is a doctor of law therefor adding Dr to his name is completly correct.

Image copyright problem with File:Andrea Bocelli - The Power of Love.ogg
The image File:Andrea Bocelli - The Power of Love.ogg is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check


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The following images also have this problem:


 * File:Time To Say Goodbye.jpg

This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Media copyright questions. --14:54, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Cause of blindness
Bocelli became totaly blind according to him,, every biography Ive ever read of him (and Ive read all) and his Biography, that can be seen on youtube, done by the BBC, at the age of 12, so please who ever keeps changing the age stop cause u r wrong! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.92.230.29 (talk) 03:12, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

About the Images
I used the images because they were covers of albums of bocelli so when i say for exemple the Bocelli album was released in 1995, i show the image next to it so people can see it and click on it for more information about the album, When i talk about time to say goodbye i add the audio of it so people can listen to some of it after reading about it; as for Power of love, its a song from the Bocelli album so they can sample it and listen to a part of a song of that particuler album. Thats why i used all of of the images, they are placed every time in the right sections according to year and content like Bocelli's picture with his fiance in his personnel life section for exemple or the picture of Teatro del Silenzio, in his early life section to show where he grew up since its in Lajatico, his home town. You are asking me to explan something or add something to the discription of the article, Im sorry if i don't understand what you want me to do but if I did I would have no problem adding any information just not sure what you are asking of me sorry. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ahmad123987 (talk • contribs) 02:00, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Noncritical Hagiography
I am amazed this article has not been flagged for a) its appearance as a lengthy resume, b) its generally uncritical and hagiographic tone. There is one buried comment alluding to negative response from the "press." I would contend that a major aspect of AB's career is the wide gap between his adoring fans and his many detracting critics (journalistic, academic, and otherwise). The article should be edited for length and tone, and should be substantially edited to avoid its current appearance as a fan site list of concert tours, engagements and events by year. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bwv1052 (talk • contribs) 14:16, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
 * there use to be a critic section, but it was removed for some raison, if u feel like in needs to be on this page, feel free to add one.
 * complete agreement. the phrase "standing ovation" occurs three times in the article.  nothing wrong with the phrase itself but this get quite ridiculous... e.g. "Bocelli and Bryn Terfel presented the duet "Au fond du temple saint", from George Bizet's Les pêcheurs de perles, and they received a standing ovation."  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tonalone (talk • contribs) 04:50, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

The article has turned into the unofficial Andrea Bocelli fan club
This is really quite embarrassing.--Tonalone (talk) 19:22, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

True, how would everyone like to proceed to rectify this? --Joshuaselig (talk) 20:00, 10 May 2009 (UTC)


 * The year-by-year, blow-by-blow, of what looks like his each-and-every appearance is not only a little much, it's all stuck under "Early life," even though it runs all the way to 2009. It probably belongs in a separate article with the "Discography" section, which BTW appears to be redundant with the table at the bottom. For now, I'm just going to do a little rearranging, and we'll see what people think. ô ¿ ô  21:49, 8 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Nah, the rearranging I had in mind ain't gonna work. So I just added a "Career" section to correct the glaring error. The section still needs to be shortened via summary IMHCO, and the blow-by-blow and discography moved to a separate article. I'd do it but I have to go water my cat. ô ¿ ô  22:09, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

Audio file and "commentary" by "Midgette"
I'm not sure who "Midgette" is exactly, or how she got her weak attempt at being a critic into Bocelli's Wikipedia article, but I think it's inclusion could use some review. The rationale behind her amateur critique as stated by herself at the end of the media file is "It may sound pretty, but I bet you wouldn't hear it if you were singing it in an opera house". How does that even make sense? I felt it necessary to critique the "critic" in this regard, but her conclusion is nonsensical, and her qualifications unstated (and notably lacking). Granted the media file in and of itself is useful and representative of the general criticisms listed, but it does not come across well. At least to me. 24.57.17.252 (talk) 09:30, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Is Anne Midgette an "amateur" because you do not know her name? How many music critics do you know by name?  She has her own wikipedia page for god's sake! She happens to be a leading authority in classical music, educated at Yale, and currently works for the New York Times. I give her words more weight than yours. Next time write based on facts instead of your own bias.- — Preceding unsigned comment added by Scondilo (talk • contribs) 19:45, 16 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Strangely you seem to have more information on her than her page does. Perhaps someone should also review the basis for a Wikipedia entry existing for Midgette at all.  Nothing I see on the Wikipedia page warrants, in my estimation, her inclusion. Perhaps it should be flagged.24.57.53.30 (talk) 05:30, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

Criticism
A well meaning user removed this section and left a note in the main article that it would be better to compare him to his contemporaries than criticize. However the criticism was well sourced and fit within policies so I have restored it. Just because another article does not have criticism does not mean this one cannot, as long as it falls within policy. Merely having criticism is not a bad thing either. On the other hand I would like to see a well-sourced comparison between him and his contemporaries and would encourage the inclusion of that. --BHC (talk) 01:51, 7 January 2010 (UTC)


 * I changed the section to Voice cause that way the title is at least not bias. However it needs to be balanced with positive information about Bocelli's voice. All critics don't agree...his voice has been compared to god's by Celine dion, and to angels by many other celebraties. He is often described as the best or one of the best singers in the world by media personalities and by people in general, the masses. All of that should be included with citations. Classical misic critics aren't the only music critics, and Bocelli doesn't only sing opera.--Ahmad123987 (talk) 00:09, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I added "Criticism" as an under title, but "Praise" should be added and sourced as well, in order to balance the article.--Ahmad123987 (talk) 23:45, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I balanced the Voice section of the article a little bit, but it still need to be improved--Ahmad123987 (talk) 10:59, 20 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I added quotes and opinions of notable people who have a positive view about Bocelli's voice to balance the "Voice" section.--Ahmad123987 (talk) 12:55, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

Editing the Introduction of this article
The introduction of thsi article is too small compared to the introductions of articles about other singers on wikipedia. I think part of the introductions of the "Andrea Bocelli discography" or the "List of Andrea Bocelli awards" should be imported to this main article. Any thoughts?--Ahmad123987 (talk) 09:34, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Since the intro was too short compared to the intros of articles about other artists like Madonna, Michael Jackson, Lady Gaga, Beyonce, and Pavarotti, I imported an edited version of the intros of the"Andrea Bocelli discography' and "List of Awards received by Andrea Bocelli" articles.--Ahmad123987 (talk) 13:13, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

The front page on Daylife from where I linked to this page says: "About This Topic Wikipedia.Dr. Andrea Bocelli, GO OMRI., LL.D. (born September 22, 1958) is an Italian operatic pop tenor and a classical crossover singer who has also performed in operas." Somebody, please, write to Daylife and complain about the phrase "Italian operatic pop tenor" because it is incorrect to say that. Andrea Bocelli is a classical crossover singer, but he is not a "pop tenor"; there is no such thing as a "pop tenor". This was made up to ridicule Bocelli as a tenor, from people who disliked him. We should not allow this to be perpetuated. Please notice that is being said under the title of "Wikipedia", but the actual Wikipedia article does not contain such a mention. Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 186.80.251.167 (talk) 02:56, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

Suggestion
Per our guidelines on ledes, we don't need footnotes for not-likely-to-be-controversial info that is referenced in the body of the article. Our lede here has a great number of footnotes. It would likely be easier to read if someone were to trim it of footnotes, with the aforementioned in mind.--Epeefleche (talk) 04:46, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

Image
Surely this image is better than the current painting? -- chinneeb - talk 16:33, 4 May 2011 (UTC)


 * Indeed, and it was in fact the infobox image until December of 2010. To have a WP editor's painting used in the infobox when there is a fully adequate photograph (in fact a pretty good one!) is inappropriate. -Joshuapaquin (talk) 06:20, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

I love it! Leave it in! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Spekman303 (talk • contribs) 23:12, 6 May 2011 (UTC)


 * I also feel that it would be more appropriate to use a photograph of a person, as there are many available, instead of a seemingly non-notable artist's interpretation of his appearance. TubularWorld (talk) 20:15, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

Image
Why is a wikipedian's painting preferable to a free, perfectly good photograph as an infobox image? -- chinneeb - talk 18:52, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Looks like an advertisement
So Bocelli's article is longer than any other tenor that has ever lived? This is not an encyclopedia article and it looks like an advertisement. It seems more like a summary of his schedule in the last 20 years. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.89.21.232 (talk) 18:43, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

Summary
Jesus, it looks like the citation fairy took a crap on the summary. I can barely read it with all the footnote markers. Are they really necessary? 1 and 17 are repeated about a million times, and don't get me started on the embedded wiki links. It looks like not so much an encyclopedia article as a product of a linkbot on meth. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.177.12.204 (talk) 10:12, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

Article length
Does anyone else think this article is too long? The 2010 section in particular is not something I would want to read due to the length. Melonkelon (talk) 22:22, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

Yes, much too long. We do not need to know Bocelli canceled the third of three performances of Romeo and Juliet one year due to vocal strain. That much detail is excessive.--Forgotmyold.onehere (talk) 21:36, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

Criticism of voice section
Why does poor old Bocelli get such a bad rap, with a fairly long criticism subsection to the part about his vocal technique? This is practically unheard of for Wikipedia articles about msuical artists, and quite frankly I think there's an agenda behind it. It this type of thing is allowed, at least start off with the most talentless of them all, like Britney Spears and Nicki Minaj. Not Bocelli.--Coin945 (talk) 07:22, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

This logic is flawed. I agreed that this amount of criticism is unheard of in Wikipedia pages on musical artists, but for the simple fact that there are fewer reviews of their vocal performance, not their personal life, by music critics and established individuals in the industry. If any are found, by all means feel free to reference them in B.Spears' and N.Minaj's Wiki articles. --Forgotmyold.onehere (talk) 21:48, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

Early UK TV appearances
One of Andrea's first appearances in the UK was at the BBC Television Centre when he sung with Lesley Garrett at the recording of "Lesley Garrett Tonight". I was in the audience. It was on either 11 March 2000, 25 March 2000 or 8 April 2000. The whole series was recorded on those dates I forget which session he was in. Robert Steel — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.106.239.113 (talk) 16:27, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

Wrong year of birth?
Hello to you all, I've noticed that in Wiki-articels in other languages the year of birth is 1958. In the english article it is 1948. Best regards. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2003:65:6D6E:1E00:4835:FADB:F585:DD1E (talk) 04:35, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

Fan page or legit article?
Is it just me or does this wikipedia article read more like a fan website? There is a lot unnecessary detail, trivia and the like, as well as some shoddy work that would make any self-respecting scholar blush. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Curomei (talk • contribs) 00:41, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

Oh a lot of these PBS wizzes like Charlotte Church and Josh Brogan get huge articles, while the rest of us wonder what in thwe world is going on. Most of these people seem to be more hype than anything else.. Williamb (talk) 14:16, 15 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Josh Brogan&mdash;no article. Koro Neil (talk) 04:35, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

Fan site cannot be used as a reference citation
There are 48 footnotes cited to a German fan site that says right on it, "Assurances for the complete accuracy of some of the details cannot be given." This is non-WP:RS, and since fan sites aren't journalistic sites doing original reporting, that means the information in them came from somewhere else, which is what we should be citing.

Before removing these cites, I'm asking other editors to help properly cite the information. In the meantime, I am immediately removing an personal-life claims cited to this fan site in contradiction of the policy WP:BLP. --Tenebrae (talk) 15:11, 27 May 2020 (UTC)