Talk:Andrea Reimer

Removal of citations
I have attempted to contact User:Andreareimer via her talk page here to ask for further details about the repeated deletion of multiple cited articles saying that they are inaccurate. It would be helpful if there would be some discussion as to what may be inaccurate as there are multiple reliable sources stating many of the claims that have been deleted. I am unclear why the multiple sources are being deleted. I would like to work towards making this the most accurate article possible, but it is difficult to understand the concerns of another editor unless they are explained in a bit more detail - particularly when the portions deleted come from multiple sources reliable sources. Thank you. ConcernedVancouverite (talk) 14:38, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Since these references have been deleted again, I have preserved them below along with additional commentary here. ConcernedVancouverite (talk) 19:17, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Page Editted to Be Accurate & Comply with the Wikipedia Policy on Biographies of Living Persons
Edits made:

Introduction section Corrected language that inaccurately reflects citation in last sentence. This has been removed repeatedly by other editor -- perhaps they didn't read the cited material? -- although it is properly referenced in the political "career" section so this seems unlikely.
 * The change you propose here is acceptable and clarifies the language further. ConcernedVancouverite (talk) 18:56, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Background Removed all references to Linda Solomon article, which is erroneously cited by an editor as multiple reference presumably because the same article appears in more than one place on the internet. Material in the Solomon article is inaccurate and/or use of it violates Wikipedia policy on biographies of living person which states that material which is poorly sourced, does not have multiple sources, is irrelevant to the subject's inclusion on Wikipedia and/or violates the privacy of living persons (relatives of the subject in this case) should not be used.
 * This change does not appear to be acceptable to me for the reasons stated below. I have placed my response to this point below as it is lengthy. ConcernedVancouverite (talk) 18:58, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Verifiable background material is added, including accurate information about employment and community volunteer activities. These have been repeated deleted by other editor for unclear reasons, although they comply with both the spirit and the letter of Wikipedia policies.


 * These were deleted because they were not cited to a reliable source. Please provide in-line citations to support these claims.  Thank you. ConcernedVancouverite (talk) 18:59, 12 October 2009 (UTC)  I have placed fact tags in the article to clarify which claims do not currently have adequate citations.  ConcernedVancouverite (talk) 19:20, 12 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Citations are added. Of note, the summaries you've written for other city councillors contain this type of information but it is not cited by you. Interested to know why you don't think it's important in your entries for others but is in this one?
 * Thank you for adding citations. If you find any other articles that require additional citations please feel free to add fact tags appropriately.  But what goes on in another article is not relevant when discussing this article.  ConcernedVancouverite (talk) 23:50, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Political Career Corrected inaccuracies in timeline.
 * I am not clear which changes you are referring to here, so I am unclear what you mean. Can you provide some diffs please? ConcernedVancouverite (talk) 19:02, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

> Date joined GPBC, dates related to "spokesperson" status for GPBC and GPV respectively.

Corrected language that inaccurately reflect various citations (carbon tax, Olympics).
 * I am not clear which changes you are referring to here, so I am unclear what you mean. Can you provide some diffs please? ConcernedVancouverite (talk) 19:02, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

> Material from Winnipeg Free Press and Courier not characterized accurately. Corrected to accurately reflect.

Organized material for ease of reading.

Moved the section on the Wilderness Committee to background as it is not a political organization.

Re-inserted material removed for unclear reasons by other editor

Family Removed reference to husband's country of origin as irrelevant and an invasion of privacy. Also removed reference to the timeline of child's birth relative to marriage as, having checked several other council members biographies, sexual activity timeline seems not to be commonly cited or particularly relevant to city council. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Andreareimer (talk • contribs) 18:35, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
 * The country of origin and profession of the the husband was reported in multiple cited sources. This appears relevant politically as well, since some of the deleted sources referred to the article's subject actively campaigning in the U.S. presidential election for American candidates as well.ConcernedVancouverite (talk)


 * Under Canadian law spouse's actions are taken as independent actions (ie. not under the control of one spouse or another) and thus in the context of the wikipedia policy on the biographies of living persons would be considered both irrelevant to an individual and an invasion of privacy for the spouse. Interestingly no other city councillor's spousal occupation or country of origin are listed in wikipedia entries, although these all appear to be edited by you as well and most of that information is also publicly available.
 * If you find additions that should be made to any other articles, please do feel free to make them. But what is listed or not listed in other articles is not relevant for the discussion of this article.  In this particular case since Andrea Reimer, as a Canadian politician, campaigned actively for an American politician it appears it is relevant.  Additionally it has been mentioned in multiple reliable sources. ConcernedVancouverite (talk) 23:52, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Background section
Information in the background section was cited to multiple sources as follows. It was not from a single article. The majority of the claims in the Solomon article were also confirmed in the Vancouver Courier article by Naoibh O'Connor. "Street smarts", Vancouver Courier, July 25, 2004, Page 1. which was also removed. Since the councilor ran by positioning the campaign as a "reformed street kid" this appears to be an integral part of the background story. This was reported in multiple locations, and appeared on the campaign website of both Reimer and Geoff Meggs as well as others. I have placed the deleted text below, with all of the citations, and will request a third opinion on this so we can improve the article and make it as accurate as possible. To make it easier to re-read the references, here are links to online versions of the primary Solomon and O'Connor pieces: "Solomon piece", "O'Connor piece"  There were other articles cited below, but these are the two larger ones. I have included all of the original references below for reference.

Reimer grew up with adversity, a background she shares openly to inspire others, and prompt concern about homeless people.

Reimer was born in Saskatoon and put into foster care. When she was 8 months old she was adopted by a couple from Vancouver who subsequently relocated to Calgary prior to her starting school. Her adoptive parents both came from backgrounds of abuse. Her father, an agronomist, grew up in poverty in a Mennonite community in Manitoba, and was beaten and tied up outdoors regularly. Her mother is a geophysicist. Her maternal grandfather was an alcoholic that regularly beat her mother and maternal grandmother. Eventually her maternal grandmother took her to Vancouver to continue raising her. Reimer's adoptive parents divorced when she was a pre-teen.

Reimer smoked her first cigarette and took her first drink at the age of 10, and started to experiment with illicit drugs at the age of 11, and LSD at the age of 12. She drifted into a life on the streets from the ages of 14-19 which included extensive worldwide travel to places throughout Canada, the United States, Asia, Central America, Europe and North Africa. During this period she dumpster-dived, got arrested several times,  got involved in hard drugs and developed addictions. When she was 18, Reimer worked in El Salvador at a low income housing project, which she later cited as the catalyst for her environmental awareness.

Although an atheist, at 19 Reimer enrolled at Concordia University to major in religious studies. She subsequently dropped out during her first year, after six weeks of classes, and moved to Vancouver with her boyfriend at the time, who was a cocaine addict. He kicked the habit after arriving in Vancouver. In Vancouver Reimer joined a government sponsored job training program and started working with Gordon Neighbourhood House Youth Works. She was then sent for a practicum to the Western Canada Wilderness Committee. After Reimer started working her boyfriend fell back into the cocaine addiction and they broke up.

Reimer eventually worked her way up to become the executive director of the Western Canada Wilderness Committee,  where she was paid approximately $2000 a month. In 2007, she was chosen by Al Gore to deliver the Inconvenient Truth presentation to local audiences, which she delivered to over 10,000 people.

ConcernedVancouverite (talk) 18:50, 12 October 2009 (UTC)


 * First, the article referenced in citations 1, 2 and 4 is the same article and thus does not count as multiple citations. The reporter did not use a tape recorder and much of the material is inaccurate, inaccurately quoted or given on background with the understanding that it would not be used. Particularly egregious are inaccurate and libellous comments relating to family members both living and deceased.


 * Second, and since you've cited it as relevant, there is nothing on my campaign website that referenced the Solomon article nor has there ever been any attempt by me to position myself as a "reformed street kid". In thirteen years of political involvement I have submitted to two interviews on this subject and then only under duress to "share" my story to inspire those living on the street, not those voting for me.


 * Personally, I believe elected officials should be judged by their merits, abilities and choices made that are relevant to their current position, not activities they participated in 20-25 years ago, and certainly not on their parents upbringing, how much money they make in their job, husband's country of origin or whether or not they had sex before marriage. Thankfully no other councillor seems to be subject to this treatment by you but if they were I would argue as vehemently that basic standards and ethics were upheld to ensure the privacy of their family and relevance of the information to their position. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Andreareimer (talk • contribs) 00:00, 13 October 2009 (UTC)


 * I was unaware that you were claiming that the authors of the Solomon and O'Connor articles were not in fact accurate in their writing. I should stress that the Wikipedia policy on well-known public figures does state that, "In the case of significant public figures, there will be a multitude of reliable, third-party published sources to take material from, and Wikipedia biographies should simply document what these sources say. If an allegation or incident is notable, relevant, and well-documented by reliable published sources, it belongs in the article—even if it's negative and the subject dislikes all mention of it. If it is not documented by reliable third-party sources, leave it out."  Is it correct for me to understand from your statements that the claims by the articles that state Andrea Reimer had a life of adversity are not factually correct?  Are the coverage of drug usage by Andrea Reimer mentioned both in the 2004 article and the 2008 article also not accurate?  Are the coverage of a period of Andrea Reimer living on the streets in both the 2004 article and the 2008 article not accurate?  If so, then by all means they should be dropped from the article, and you have my deepest apology for believing what I read in the Vancouver Observer and the Vancouver Courier and the reprint in Today's Vancouver Woman magazine of the Vancouver Observer article.  If however those claims are accurate, then considering that Vision Vancouver (Andrea Reimer's current political party) has solving the homelessness issues and the drug abuse issues Vancouver is facing as key platform positions that a city councilor from that party will have direct influence over policy decisions on, I think the background is extremely relevant.  Can you please clarify if those claims in those articles were not accurate?  Thank you.  ConcernedVancouverite (talk) 00:50, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Outside Opinion
I thank all involved editors for their efforts. If you would be so kind, please concisely summarize the nature of the discussion, and what the differing points of view are. I will then be able to render an informed opinion in a timely manner. Thanks again! — Finn Casey   02:48, 13 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Thank you for offering an outside opinion, Finn Casey.  There was a section on portions of the politician Andrea Reimer's background, which was sourced primarily from two in-depth published interviews in local news outlets.  The content in the article was deleted by an editor claiming to be the politician.  The two main articles cited both made claims about a background of drug usage, arrests, and a period of homelessness and attributed the claims to quotes from the politician during the two separate interviews.  Those claims in the Wikipedia article were deleted by the editor claiming to be the politician.  To make it easier to re-read the cited references, here are links to online versions of the two cited references:  "Solomon piece", "O'Connor piece"  There were other references deleted by the editor claiming to be the politician, but these are the two larger ones.


 * The editor is now claiming that at least one of the two cited articles is not accurate (the exact claim is above for you to read in full). I want to make sure we get an appropriate level of coverage of notable background items (homelessness and drug abuse are major issues facing the city council), as guided by WP:WELLKNOWN but want to make sure we are staying true to the WP:BLP guidelines as well.  So an outside opinion looking over the issue, and some suggestions for how best to proceed, would be most appreciated.  Thank you for your time in helping to improve the article. ConcernedVancouverite (talk) 14:10, 13 October 2009 (UTC)


 * I agree that BLP concerns can be difficult to determine. However, I am generally in agreement with the viewpoint of ConcernedVancouverite regarding the necessity of including properly sourced and significant information, even if it is negative.  —Finn Casey * * * 22:23, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your thoughts on the matter, Finn. I propose we add the following language back into the page then.  I have attempted to address concerns about reliable sources raised on this talk page by editor Andreareimer.  I would appreciate any further comments from both you, editor Andreareimer, and any other editors as well. ConcernedVancouverite (talk) 14:37, 16 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Reimer grew up with adversity, a background she shares openly to inspire others, and prompt concern about homeless people.


 * Reimer was born in Saskatoon and put into foster care.   When she was 8 months old she was adopted by a couple from Vancouver who subsequently relocated to Calgary prior to her starting school.   Reimer's adoptive parents divorced when she was a pre-teen.


 * Reimer smoked her first cigarette and took her first drink at the age of 10, and started to experiment with illicit drugs at the age of 11, and LSD at the age of 12. She drifted into a life on the streets  from the ages of 14-19 which included extensive worldwide travel to places throughout Canada, the United States, Asia, Central America, Europe and North Africa.   During this period she dumpster-dived,  got arrested several times,  got involved in hard drugs and developed addictions.  When she was 18, Reimer worked in El Salvador at a low income housing project, which she later cited as the catalyst for her environmental awareness.


 * Although an atheist, at 19 Reimer enrolled at Concordia University to major in religious studies. She subsequently dropped out during her first year , after six weeks of classes, and moved to Vancouver with her boyfriend at the time, who was a cocaine addict.   He kicked the habit after arriving in Vancouver.  In Vancouver Reimer joined a government sponsored job training program and started working with Gordon Neighbourhood House Youth Works.  She was then sent for a practicum to the Western Canada Wilderness Committee.   After Reimer started working her boyfriend fell back into the cocaine addiction and they broke up.


 * Reimer eventually worked her way up to become the executive director of the Western Canada Wilderness Committee,  where she was paid approximately $2000 a month.  In 2007, she was chosen by Al Gore to deliver the Inconvenient Truth presentation to local audiences,  which she delivered to over 10,000 people.

Recommended for Insertion (Pending Further Comment)
Sounds good to me! I am rather busy today, but if you go ahead and put in the material, I may make minor copyedits later. Thanks for the good work! —Finn Casey * * * 21:25, 16 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Thank you for your reply, Finn. I'd like to wait at least a day or two to give editor Andreareimer a chance to comment prior to insertion, if that is ok.  ConcernedVancouverite (talk) 22:33, 16 October 2009 (UTC)


 * I agree that it would be proper to wait a reasonable length of time for further comments by other editors! —Finn Casey * * * 23:27, 16 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Since there has been no further comment, after several days, I have gone ahead and placed the agreed upon text back into the article. Thank you both for your assistance on improving the article.  ConcernedVancouverite (talk) 15:45, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

TMI (Too Much Information)
I don't care whether or not the information in this article is perceived by readers to be positive or negative, but it's too detailed. In other words, it's not encyclopedic. While one side of the coin is that unsourced information is removed, it doesn't stand to reason that every piece of sourced information should be included. IMO the surfeit of minutiae about this relatively young, relatively obscure public servant points to one or both of the following possibilities: a) She hasn't had enough of general interest happen in her life to flesh our her article, or b) She has obsessive followers (either positive or negative) determined to record every sourced fact about her.

While I am NOT saying that just because some articles are short others are too long, in this case I believe the article is long because it's unnecessarily detailed. For some examples of comparable public servants with more appropriately general articles, please check out:


 * Jim Green, former Vancouver City Councillor and Mayoral candidate
 * Tim Stevenson, fellow Vancouver City Councillor with Ms Reimer
 * Raymond Louie, former Vancouver City Councillor
 * Jamie Lee Hamilton, former Vancouver city Council candidate and local activist —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.116.59.48 (talk) 05:45, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Further to my previous post... this is how the "Background" section would go

 * For reference, here's the version in place when I suggested these edits: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Andrea_Reimer&oldid=323282611 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.116.59.48 (talk) 06:15, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Reimer was born in Saskatoon and put into foster care until she was adopted by a couple from Vancouver who subsequently relocated to Calgary. Reimer's adoptive parents divorced when she was a pre-teen.

Reimer began experimenting with drugs and alcohol at age 10, and drifted into a life on the streets from the ages of 14-19 which included world travel. When she was 18, Reimer worked in El Salvador at a low income housing project, which she later cited as the catalyst for her environmental awareness.

At age 19, Reimer enrolled at Concordia University to major in religious studies. She subsequently dropped out during her first year and moved to Vancouver,   where she worked with Gordon Neighbourhood House Youth Works and, later, the Western Canada Wilderness Committee.

Reimer eventually worked her way up to become the executive director of the Western Canada Wilderness Committee. While executive director of the Wilderness Committee, Reimer supported the creation of a carbon tax by the BC Provincial Government. It was subsequently passed. In 2007, she was chosen by Al Gore to deliver the Inconvenient Truth presentation to local audiences. .

Reimer has volunteered with many community organizations including serving as:
 * Past President of the CCEC Credit Union
 * Past President Canadian Women’s Voters Congress
 * former Vice-Chair of Your Local Farmer’s Market Society
 * former Co-Chair of the City of Vancouver’s Food Policy Council
 * Director of Toxic Free Canada

She currently serves as a Director of Environmental Education Action Project, and sits on the Vancouver Foundation’s Health and Social Development Advisory Committee. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.116.59.48 (talk) 06:12, 2 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Welcome to Wikipedia, and thank you for your thoughtful suggestions to improve the article. Some of your suggestions seem to delete important notable facts that are well sourced.  For instance, a history of arrests, illicit hard drug usage, drug addiction, dumpster diving, etc. seems rather notable and relevant for an elected official that has the power to change city policy directly related to those issues.  Since it is well sourced I do not think those should be dropped. ConcernedVancouverite (talk) 17:19, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the reply. If you check my post above this one, you'll see my rationale for removal. I believe that the facts I am not including aren't encyclopedic. If those particular issues of her personal life are relevant to her relationship with public policy, then that connection will be made by reputable third-party publications, which can then be cited not as proof of the facts themselves, but as proof of their encyclopedic value.


 * Not to trivialise your concern or Right Hon. PM, I could find a citation to prove that Stephen Harper farted under the sheets, putting it in his article wouldn't be encyclopedic in and of itself, despite his fractious relationship with climate change activists. However, if its importance as an element of his policy on global warming is recognised and noted by reliable third-party sources, then noting the fact that that connection was made would be encyclopedic. I don't think dumpster diving is encyclopedic in this case. I also don't think it's relevant to explicitly and repeatedly detail the exact extent and nature of her relationship with drugs. Simply saying that she began to experiment with drugs at a young age and lived on the street for several years is sufficient. 206.116.59.48 (talk) 03:27, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your reply. As has been noted extensively upthread, and through the consensus building process that led to the current article, there was reporting in multiple reliable sources that deemed it relevant enough to discuss during her campaign for public office.  I'd suggest if you would like to re-open the discussion that already occurred that it would be best to take it to the Biography of Living Persons Noticeboard. ConcernedVancouverite (talk) 15:38, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your comments. From your reply it doesn't seem that you've really comprehended my arguments in favour of the changes, but no biggie. I've said my piece, it's not an issue I will be pursuing any further, so making my views known here on the talkpage of the article is sufficient. You clearly have an intense interest in this subject; best wishes continuing to caretake it. 206.116.59.48 (talk) 03:00, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

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