Talk:Andrei Rublev (film)

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Title
Why is the title of the film here given as Rublev, whereas Rublyov would give the accurate pronunciation? Note that transliteration would be Rublёv, i.e not with e. E.J. 13:54, 4 June 2007 (UTC)


 * The American Title |Title according to IMDB is Andrei Rublev. I have a DVD from Artificial Eye which also has that title, so I assume it is the common English title. Every country seems to deal differently with the title issue. In German for example it is Andrei Rubljow. So I guess if the standard of film article titles in Wikipedia is to use the English title, we should change it again to Andrei Rublev and maybe add the correct transliteration in the original title section. See also Naming conventions (films) Zora11 17:57, 26 July 2007 (UTC)


 * That is exactly what we should do. Cop 663 01:33, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Successful good article nomination
I am glad to report that this article nomination for good article status has been promoted. This is how the article, as of January 3, 2008, compares against the six good article criteria:


 * 1. Well written?: There were some MOS issues, but they were small enough so I've fixed them myself. For example, you shouldn't create links to the same link multiple times, per WP:CONTEXT.
 * 2. Factually accurate?: Pass
 * 3. Broad in coverage?: Pass
 * 4. Neutral point of view?: Pass
 * 5. Article stability? Pass
 * 6. Images?: Pass

If you feel that this review is in error, feel free to take it to Good article reassessment. Thank you to all of the editors who worked hard to bring it to this status, and congratulations. — BorgQueen (talk) 13:19, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Blinding of masons.
He has a flashback during which he remembers his time working for the Grand Prince, who put out the eyes of artisans who had displeased the prince.

This is not correct. It is obvious from some cues that he does so to prevent them from building an even better house for his rival brother that they are already engaged for -- a fact leading eventually to a war. In fact this is a quote from a known legend, though unrelated to the historical situation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.85.28.101 (talk) 15:17, 16 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I added a reference to this in the "political protest" section. Tarkovky's historic reference source was the Taj Majal, but his contemporary reference was to the Soviet government itself, one of the reasons the government both loved Tarkovsky as exemplifying the superiority of Soviet artists, and at the same time hated him.  (Note also that the guy in Solaris  complaining about the need to cut off funds for Burton wasting money by "just filming clouds", and whom is criticised by Burton for having no appreciation for beauty and the real reason to live, is sitting next to a rack of Vodka.  He is supposed to represent Breshnev.  Similarly, Ivan's Childhoodstarts off with a "coo-coo" sound over the Communist icons of the Mosfilm logo.  The three allusions are similarly brave poitical stunts.)  Tautologist (talk) 18:22, 1 October 2008 (UTC)


 * On a slightly related note, I was wondering if anyone could say if these twin-brothers were based on a real pair of princes. It would seem that one brother seized power and humiliated the other, leading the other to eventually make a deal with the Tatars to take Moscow so that he could be restored to power as a vassal. (The sacking shown in the film is of Vladimir, however.) I can't find any such actual scenario here on Wikipedia when I look through the Princes of Moscow and such. Is this all just fiction? 216.254.163.22 (talk) 19:07, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Category: Films with animal cruelty
User:BlueSalo deleted a contrib by an unsigned user who added a category of "Category:Films with animal cruelty". While I am about the biggest Tarkovsky fan I have ever met (and I have met quite a few), I have read and heard in many places discussion by animal rights activists citing Andrei Rublev as the prime example of animal cruelty. This is also a typical conversation topic in the various groups of viewers in the lobby following the film, which is difficult to source, but should not be controversial among anyone who has stuck around in the lobby in one of the groups after a screening. Tautologist (talk) 18:28, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
 * The category is not existent, that is why I deleted this category. And if it would exist, a category of this type would be probably be deleted as then it would be possible to create hundreds of categories for Andrei Rublev alone (Films depicting balloons, Films depicting casting of bells and so on). See Categorization and Overcategorization, categories are for defining characteristics (That is why a category Films about animal cruelty would be appropriate), and animal-cruelty is not a defining characteristic of Andrei Rublev, albeit there is animal cruelty in the film, as is discussed in the article. Голубое сало/Blue Salo (talk) 18:39, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
 * My own category mistake, sorry Голубое сало. (Another frequent post-film-screening mini-group topic is Tarkovsky's sexism expressed in his films.)  I note that you have made a Tarkovsky-joke, since the depth of his films would likely place them in as many potential categories as any filmmaker!  Tautologist (talk) 18:45, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Producer
For those who put Tamara Ogorodnikova's name as a producer into infobox. Even with further comments. Let me reassure that producer institution did not exist in USSR. Tamara Ogorodnikova so called директор фильма. That may be loosely translated as film administrator. I do have only Russian sources, and that for example memoir of War and peace film administrator Nikolay Ivanov 1. Film administrator role in USSR movie making process was quite routine like establish water and electricity supply, meal for film crew or find exotic animals.

That’s why I propose to remove producer data from infobox of major part of the soviet movies from ~1925 to ~1987. In case any opposite sources will not be provided I’ll undo related changes in article. Saidaziz eng (talk) 06:01, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
 * No opposition? I remove data about producer. Saidaziz eng (talk) 17:38, 4 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Yeah, but isnt that exactly what the footnote said? "in the Soviet Union the role of a producer was different from that in Western countries and more similar to the role of a line producer or a unit production manager" So I reintroduced it. With the footnote it is clear what the role of Tamara was, and that it was different from what a producer is in Western countries. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.117.1.254 (talk) 01:32, 7 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I disagree. Why don’t you say that film director is producer? His role and input much more close to producer responsibility (in English meaning). During soviet times producer role has been partially played by Ministry of Culture of USSR, by management of the studio (Mosfilm) or sometimes by film director. Tatyana Ogorodnikova’s responsibility does not correspond to ordinary producer responsibility. Saidaziz eng (talk) 13:24, 10 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I hear you, but your point that she had no producer responsibilities in the Western sense is reflected in the footnote. Maybe one can argue that her role in the film was simply not important enough to warrant inclusion in the infobox. But then, her inclusion plus the clarifying footnote serves the purpose of clearing up all confusion that could stem from the fact that virtually all English-language sources say that she was the producer, without any qualifications. Note that the credit of the film (I looked at the Criterion Collection edition) say that she was the "direktor kartiny", i.e. associate producer or as translated by Criterion simply producer. Of course this translation is a bit misleading, but it shows that it is a very common mistake. 76.117.1.254 (talk) 16:12, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

Languages
In the article I noticed,


 * All foreign languages, that is Tatar and Italian, are spoken in the original. Tarkovsky’s love of the Renaissance and Italy gets a tongue-in-cheek reference with the presence of Italian ambassadors in the scene showing the casting of the bell.

Just re-saw the movie. As to Italian I can't say, though it didn't sound like Russian. My Russian isn't the best, but I thought the Tatars speaking Russian, could pick out good parts. Is Tatar so close to Russian as to be mistaken?

dino (talk) 18:42, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
 * no not really close-- ♫Greatorangepumpkin♫ T 20:13, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

"Historical accuracy" and "Historical and political context" sections
These two sections were recently blanked as part of this article's Good article reassessment because they were poorly cited and rather speculative. The information in these sections might be useful for any editor working to build up the article, since these sections would be welcome in a comprehensive article about this film.  Them From  Space  06:50, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Good point. The book "Andrei Rublev" by Robert Bird in the BFI section has actually lots of material on the historical background and context. Maybe I will do it, but at the moment I do not feel that contributing anything to this project is worth my time and patience. But by all means if any other editors feel up to it, do it. Демоны Врубеля/Vrubel&#39;s Demons (talk) 07:49, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

Release Date
This article is unclear about the release date. It says that it was shown at the Cannes Film Festival in 1969, and that it was released in the Soviet Union in 1971. Furthermore, IMDB lists the release date as 1966. I don't know which is right, but surely the infobox should list the earliest release date. 70.71.190.51 (talk) 01:11, 15 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Production was finished in 1966, but it was censored and not released in the USSR before 1971, in a heavily edited version. But it was seen at Cannes in 1969. Hence I think it's more smart to talk about a "1966 movie". IMDB is not reliable when it comes to the main year, as we don't know if it's the production or the release year. A better guideline for presenting a film would be welcome. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Historienne2012 (talk • contribs) 13:47, 10 March 2013 (UTC)


 * WP:FILMLEAD does say "release". It's when the film is first able to be seen by the pubic. Should we count Cannes at the first release? Probably, if no one else has any objections. We'd need to make sure that the infobox and article text clarify why that date is being used. We aren't necessarily trying to be "most right" in the lead sentence, but rather "best for our readers". The second sentence should clarify. Perhaps "Although production was complete in 1966, ...". That way the reader doesn't have to get to deep into the article for a clarification. If they only read the first sentence, 1969 is going to lead them less astray than either 1966 or 1971. Yworo (talk) 11:47, 13 March 2013 (UTC)


 * At least somewhere in the lead section, the 1966 production date should be mentioned, perhaps in the way as suggested by Yworo. I wonder if "a single screening at the Dom Kino in Moscow in 1966 for film professionals" could count for a public release  It seems there are also some contradictions between the lead and [Andrei_Rublev_(film)#Distribution|Distibution]] sections. The lead suggests that the version shown in 1971 was 'censored' and the version shown in 1969 was not; but according to the Distibution section, the version of the film shown in 1966 was the same 186 minute version as the version shown in Cannes and that same version "was released on December 24, 1971" for public in its home country. This version seems to have been endorsed by Tarkovsky, although I wonder if the Soviet censorship also influenced his words in the 1969 interview in which he did this. The words "heavily edited version" would, I suppose, better apply to the 101-minute version shown on Soviet television in 1973. BTW Columbia Pictures apparently also did some censoring in the international release...   Another contradiction is the note '[citation needed]' after the lead sentence about the 1969 screening, while this is referenced in the Distribution section.   WP:FILMLEAD asks for an opening sentence which "should identify the title of the film, the year of its public release, and the major genre(s) under which it is normally classified." However I think, in a case like this, an opening sentence which defines this film as "a 1971 Russian film directed by Andrei Tarkovsky" gives a wrong impression. Which is a 1971 film? Is 1971 a defining element of the film in this case? I think, if one does not want to explain the release problems in the opening sentence, one should not follow the guidelines literally here, but either replace 1971 with an earlier year or remove the year from the opening sentence. (Also possible IMHO would be, '...a 1966-1971 film'.) Best regards, Bever (talk) 04:38, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

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Balancing the Summary Article
I can almost guarantee no Russian person that watched Andrei Rublev saw "Christianity as an axiom of Russia’s historical identity" if they even pretended to understand what "axiom" means in this case (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axiom). J. Hoberman is a critic, his essay is appropriately cited and should be included in the relevant sub-section of the article, but I heavily disagree that a particular critics opinion should be included in the Article Summary, especially prefacing a critics opinion with "Tarkovsky sought.." is incorrect and should be explicitly qualified e.g. "According to J. Hoberman Tarkovsky sought.."

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