Talk:Andrew Cunanan/Archive 1

Testerone doesn't cause 'homicidal rages'
This is an unscientific and baseless part of the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 152.163.101.13 (talk) 00:15, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Motive?
Does anyone know why he committed these murders?

This is unproven but I have heard he had a mental break after one of his relationships ended. ShadowWriter 03:25, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Wrong
The FBI were looking for someone in drag because of a rumour not because they assumed all gay men were transvestites.

Agreed, this section's strange. The FBI is accused of bungling by stereotyping but the article says he had little history of transvestism. A little history would be enough for the FBI to consider it not improbably that a wanted killer could attempt this disguise. Seeing as no source is given I'd say this should be reworked or stricken.

I agree. I haven't been able to get my cousin (who's rather high up in the FBI) to confirm nor deny this. Sad, I know. :) Ryanjcole 09:02, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Sealand passport
The sealand article says he had a Sealand passport. --Gbleem 04:45, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Where? If it ever was there, it was removed. You cannot site another Wiki entry as a source, and I seriously doubt that this micronation, which is no more than an abandoned British naval platform off the coast of England, has any capacity to make any passports- nor would it get anyone past customs, as it is not recognized as a sovereign state by any nation.

Sealand has made passports and illegal counterfeits were well known. Cunanan's possession of one has nothing to do with whether or not it would get anyone past customs as the fact is he had one counterfeit or otherwise

The Sealand website says:

http://www.sealandnews.com/history/
 * Fake Sealand Passports 
 * In 1997, forged passports of the Principality of Sealand started turning up all around the world.
 * Fake Sealand passports were used by criminals to open bank accounts or to travel under false names. Passports seized in a Slovenian caper had entry and exit stamps from at least 10 countries, including Romania, Bulgaria, Iraq, Iran and Libya. Almost five thousand forged Sealand passports were sold at around £ 1,000 each to Hong Kong citizens before the handover to China. Torsten Reineck, on whose houseboat Andrew Cunanan committed suicide after the murder of famous fashion designer Gianni Versace, carried a Sealand passport. Reineck drove around Beverly Hills in a car with Sealand “diplomatic plates”.
 * Prince Roy stated that these passports were not issued by the Principality of Sealand. “Each and every country in the world has problems like this. The world is awash with forged passports. I’m just angry they’re faking mine and using them for criminal purposes.”
 * The Royal Family revoked all Sealand Passports

So I think it was a mistake that Cunnan himself had a passport. I'm deleting this until we find a source that says otherwise. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 23:30, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Article vandalized
It appears that someone has vandalized this article. There are non-sensical sentences written in bold at the end of the "Motives" and "Personal Life" sections. --ChezChas (talk) 23:05, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Conflicting data
Cunanun's place of birth is mentioned twice on this page. Unfortunately, the are not the same. 64.207.54.89 (talk) 20:45, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Dead links
Don't know how to add a dead link note, but the CNN link has wandered the way of the dodo. Maladroitmortal (talk) 04:37, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Guilty?
Is it appropriate to baldly state that this man murdered the five people in question, seeing that he was never tried and convicted? Should it not be stated as an accusation, along with the (OK, very compelling) evidence?
 * Yes, in the event that a perpetrator dies before being brought before a court then the determination of a coroners report would be considered sufficient in cases such as these. Parsival74 (talk) 20:47, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

I disagree, the man remains merely a suspect as things stand, end of story.

If this 'coroners report' nonsense was to be accepted as 'proof' of guilt then the whole process of law would be deeply flawed - as this presumes no necessity for a trial by judge and jury, and as this would never apply to living suspects it therefore most certainly cannot apply to dead suspects for obvious reasons. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.232.100.225 (talk) 17:40, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Actual number of victims?
I made a slight change in the text, from "five murders", to "at least five murders". The reason is I suspect that he may have killed a bunch of other folk.

Why? Take a look at the victims. Most of them are high profile people. Only a couple are "Joe and Jane Six Packs" (and one of those was only tied in to this because of the circumstances - he was killed in a car jacking). There are a lot more "everybodies" around than high class types, leading me to a nagging suspicion that there are other victims who just weren't given enough police attention.

No actual proof of this, of course. But I think the small edit I made ("at least", and "known") is worth keeping in place.

wiki-ny-2007 (talk) 03:25, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
 * thank you 220.245.253.81 (talk) 07:03, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Image
Hi, I added an image to the article! --Torsrthidesen (talk) 02:29, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
 * thank you 220.245.253.81 (talk) 07:03, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Not a serial killer
Andrew Cunanan was not a serial killer, he was a spree killer. The main difference between the two being that serial killers commit their murders over a very long period of time with the intervals between killings generally becoming shorter as time goes on. Cunanan committed his murders over a span of a couple of weeks. By definition the man is a spree killer.
 * Great. Can we have a wikipedia article that defines "spree killer", since we have a definition, but dead links in the article. 64.252.5.119 (talk) 23:23, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
 * This is incorrect, according to the Wikipedia article Serial killer a serial killer is defined as "someone who murders two (some experts say three) or more people in two or more separate events over a period of time", a definition which is referenced. Similarly at the article Spree killer the definition given is "defines a spree killing as "killings at two or more locations with almost no time break between murders.""  It seems to me that in order to be consistent with both of these articles that Cunanan should be classed as a serial killer.  Parsival74 (talk) 20:32, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
 * This isn't the first time people have changed the article back and forth between "spree" and "serial", and I've seen other references to disagreements over which term applies (e.g., Gary Indiana in talking about his Cunanan book). I'd suggest that the text of the article reflect this uncertainty, rather than simply coming down on one side or the other. SethTisue (talk) 05:55, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I noted a few ambiguous comments on various web pages regarding Cunanan's status, however until someone provides solid citations to the contrary it seems sensible to classify him within the definitions provided by the relevant articles on Wikipedia. I think part of the confusion is that there is a difference between 'going on a killing spree' and being classified officially as a spree killer. Unfortunately serial killers are not my particular area of interest and so my resources to fully flesh out this article are insufficient, if you have good resources maybe you could edit the article to reflect the confusion that exists?  Also does anyone know what the FBI's official classification of Cunanan was?  Their categorisation would be the most definitive to my mind.  Parsival74 (talk) 18:56, 29 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Cunanan was homosexual, as was Versace. What about Cunanan's other victims?  Was he killing his former clients?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.197.15.138 (talk) 08:54, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

Film
http://robertjohnford.com/andrew.html Did anyone know about "My Dinner With Andrew"?

Seemed like it should be added to the article but in a new category? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rossidor (talk • contribs) 06:27, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

Cell phone
I don't have a reference here, but wasn't this one of the frst cases when law enforcement used a cell phone signal to track a suspect's movements?

RDV 26March2007


 * Wasn't there Dudaev in 1996? 95.24.116.62 (talk) 19:40, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

Technology just wasn't capable of tracking closer than 10-15 miles. They could ID a phone on a grid but not much better. Ryanjcole (talk) 18:57, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

For what it's worth, i was working in the mobile phone industry from around 1997-99, and triangulation was most definitely possible. I don't know with what accuracy a signal could be triangulated, but considering that the range of a cell site at that time was less than 20 miles, especially near cities, and that in and around major cities there were cell sites spaced just a couple miles apart at the farthest (even then), i would guess that a mobile phone could be triangulated to within a city block at the very, very least - and that's assuming you've got an orangutan actually working the geometry. Of course, none of this matters, since i can't find a source dated to that time period :/ ~transmothra (talk) 05:37, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

What is the relevancy of his ethnicity?
His mixture of ethnicity's is very American common bringing in the curious "everyman" theme that is so quintessentially American. This has intrigue for readers who, just as the experts, are trying to puzzle out just what drove this person to do what he did. Astute readers are going to want to sift every clue available to them as their desire to correctly understand his motives, his personality drives their efforts. To simply gloss over and erase out information to make him appear ethnically neutral would be both dishonest and a disservice to readers putting in some real effort to understand him. Trying to understand a serial killer, and the social fabric they navigate through is complex as it gets and any clues are appreciated. 209.101.236.168 00:12, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Is it relevant to mention he was of Italian and Filipino descent? He was born in California which makes him American.Rustbelt 17:06, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
 * His looks were such that he tended to blend in everywhere and anywhere, so yes, it is relevant. Speciate 18:01, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
 * However, feel free to move that information deeper into the article. Speciate 18:03, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

I don't understand how readers are supposed to draw the conclusion that being of Italian/ Filipino descent makes it easier to blend in. The way the information is presented seems to form an impression that his ethnicity had something to do with his criminal actions. My conclusion is that it is irrelevant and should be deleted.Rustbelt 14:43, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
 * No, it made it easier for him to blend in in Miami. Speciate 21:20, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

The following section, "Since he was of mixed race (his mother was white, and his father, Filipino), he blended in well in the diverse Miami Beach scene", all looks to me like original research. Are there any references to support that this is a published conclusion? Parsival74 (talk) 21:45, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Just to clarify, I don't mean the part about his parents ethnicity in and of itself (that is documented), I'm referring to the idea that it had some special advantage which helped him fit in. From my readings on this subject his ability to fit into the Miami scene was due to his gay lifestyle more than any other factor. Parsival74 (talk) 21:51, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
 * As there are no citations supporting this, and I can't even find a hint of a suggestion to support the conclusion I am deleting the sentence. Parsival74 (talk) 19:14, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I remember the Cunanan saga vividly when it was going on in 1997, and my impression on the media emphasis on his Italian/Filipino descent was to stress that Cunanan's exotic good looks. Lampenstein (talk) 04:47, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

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Prostitute?
Someone added an assertion that he was a prostitute to the article, but I don't think it is well supported. Seems more like he just partnered up with men long term who would support him, see 1 Klaun (talk) 01:39, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

Corrected date of death
F.I, I corrected the date (from July 24) to July 23. I found a reference here were it states his body was found "Wednesday". July 23 1997 was a Wednesday. Kind regards Saschaporsche (talk) 08:24, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

Death
Andrew Cunanan died on a houseboat in Miami Beach, not in "Miami." Would an editor who knows how to fix this reference please do so? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.186.26.70 (talk) 01:11, 22 January 2018 (UTC)

Murders
In the last paragraph of the Murders section, the mansion was in, and remains in, Miami Beach, it was never in "Miami." Would a registered editor kindly make this correction? Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.96.91.102 (talk) 04:37, 13 February 2018 (UTC) N.B., Mr. Versace was shot on the steps of his mansion, Casa Casuarina, which was and is located on Ocean Drive in the City of Miami Beach, Florida. Casa Casuarina is not now, nor was it ever, located in the City of Miami, Florida. Miami and Miami Beach are two entirely different cities seperated by a large body of water known as Biscayne Bay. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.96.91.102 (talk) 17:24, 14 February 2018 (UTC) It might be worthwhile to place a link to the Wiki article on Casa Casuarina in this paragraph, as the article has many photos of the mansion.

Andrew Cunanan's Death
Wikipedia says that Andrew Cunanan committed suicide in an upstairs bedroom. I remember when this was actually happening. On live TV they showed them on a house boat pulling a body out of the water. Why is this not mentioned or addressed here or in the made for TV movie? Was that a bogus TV spot at that time? It shocked me when I saw it and that image has stayed with me all this time. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.145.40.80 (talk) 22:47, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

missing word in § Early life and education
"In 1988, when Cunanan was 19, [...] and his deeply religious Mary Anne learned that Cunanan was gay."

I take it Mary Anne was his mother, so that word is missing. Article is protected, so i can't add it myself. 92.224.123.98 (talk) 22:17, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

Houseboat findings
Hello,

We now have access to the complete FBI file on Andrew Cunanan, in it you can find the actual list of objects found in the boathouse where AC killed himself. So the rumour, backed up by this Wikipedia article that “a fairly extensive collection of fiction by C.S. Lewis” was found at the scene contradicts with the actual list released by the FBI.

For the sake of accuracy, I think it should be edited and backed up with the files I cite above, but as the article is locked, I can't update the Motive section myself, maybe some of you could. Thanks! Tangdenaranja (talk) 13:38, 1 April 2018 (UTC)Tangdenaranja
 * Please refer to No original research. The findings are sourced and referenced. Wikipedia editors are supposed to cite 3rd party sources, not analyze the raw data. If you can find a referenced source stating no such objects were found, by all means, cite it. 97.68.156.197 (talk) 00:01, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

The prior meeting w/Versace is disputed - why is it here as Fact?
As far as I can find via any legitimate sources, the supposed "prior meeting with Gianna Versace" and subsequent conversation is still disputed and totally unproven, yet it currently appears in the article.....with a cited reference for further support.

I feel this is incorrect and very misleading. The source article linked is just a series of statements with no independent sources or any corroboration whatsoever and it has been a long-held belief by first-person associates of Cunanan that the story of the Versace encounter was just that.....a story. Cunanan’s skill and ease in slick prevarication was on constant display and inventing an ego-boosting, envy-inducing encounter with a celebrity such as Versace was par for the course. Of course, Cunanan may have actually been in the same room with Versace, made eye contact, or even spoken with him, only to greatly embellish the entire experience when regaling friends.

The point is we don’t know, to date no proof has been found, and it should not be listed as a fact — especially with a source article that is just a series of statements culled from a mix of facts, opinions, and speculations which have no cited sources nor independent support.

I do not want to merely edit the article and correct this myself because someone will just put it back, so I am looking for an agreement here (no matter what one believes about the truth of the Versace-Cunanan prior encounter) that citing it in this article as a FACT, particularly with an inappropriate/inadequate reference, is improper, misleading, and is creating facts rather than reporting them.

Thoughts? BeachyBlonde (talk) 09:11, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
 * That item looks like it's well-sourced in the article. Are you saying that that source is not a reliable one? --SergeWoodzing (talk) 14:08, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
 * I see the problem: the source is a reliable one, but the problem is where the source is getting its information: from Cunanan's friends. And where did they get it? From Cunanan himself. And he is a well-known liar and fabricator. So we should not say it in Wikipedia's voice. We should say something like "Cunanan claimed". I'll work on that.
 * I see no reliable source for those claims & questions. That means that without out a new source we cannot attack the source already given for that item in the article's text and just change it the way we'd like to see it. In short: new source or no change. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 04:53, 14 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Let’s talk about this revert. You said “not in source given”. What I had done was to attribute the information about meeting Versace to Cunanan himself rather than in Wikipedia’s voice. It’s true that the source states this meeting as fact, without saying where they got the information. (Actually they don’t say where they got any of their information.) But it’s obvious that they must have gotten this report from Cunanan’s friends after his death; it's not as if their meeting was reported contemporaneously in some source. And it’s equally obvious that they must have heard it from Cunanan himself, a known confabulator. So I changed it to “Cunanan told friends that…” But I admit that was an assumption on my part.


 * It is factual that Versace was in San Francisco in 1990. It is also factual that Cunanan was in SF in 1990. It's not impossible that they might have met during that time. But I object to stating as fact that they met. If your objection is that we have no evidence that the source is Cunanan's own boasting, I would accept “Cunanan reportedly met …” or something similar. I do not accept our simple statement of fact that Cunanan met Versace when the latter was in San Francisco in 1990. -- MelanieN (talk) 17:31, 14 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Well, I take it back. Apparently the story comes from a source who interviewed "multiple witnesses to the interaction." So I will add that source to our article, instead of the current weak source, and leave it as a sourced statement of fact that they met. -- MelanieN (talk) 17:46, 14 February 2019 (UTC)