Talk:Andriy Shtoharenko

Spelling of the name
I created the page Andrei Shtogarenko. Then Bandurist comes along and changes it to Andreiy Shtoharenko.

1. Nowhere is Shtogarenko's name transliterated Shtoharenko. This is a patent error. In the New Grove and other references, including the Ukrainian musicians website (www.ukrainianmuscians.com) is his name transliterated as Shtoharenko.

2. Andrei for Andriy. Although the New Grove uses this transliteration they are the only ones to use this unacceptably transliteration. The Ukrainians themeselves do not use it. The Russians have long transliterated the name Andrei (q.v. Andrei Gromiko etc etc). It is far and away the prefered transliteration in English for this name.

3. I was unable to change the heading back to the correct transliteration despite trying. I guess I do not know enough about editiong to do it. But hopefully someone like Schissel will do it.


 * No problem. Google has many MANY more hits using Shtogarenko.  I just reversed the redirect.  Note that there ARE some who are using Shtoharenko.  So, the redirect is necessary. -- Kainaw (what?) 18:54, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

I had him as a teacher at the Kyiv conservatory back in 1979. He is a Ukrainian composer and his name should be transliterated directly from the Ukrainian rather than being mangled through the intermediatory language of Russian. --Bandurist 13:37, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

That's great that you had him for a teacher. However, it seems very few have transliterated his name in English the way you have. Authoritative sources ranging from the New Grove Dictionary to Melodyia records to the Lissenko String Quartet of the Ukraine, who worked with him for many years, have all transliterated his name as SHTOGARENKO NOT SHTOHARENKO.

Transliteration is the act of putting sounds from one language into another. In English it makes absolutely no sense to transliterate his first name as Andreiy. "iy" is not a sound in English that has any pronunciation meaning for a native English speaker which apparently you are not. If a listing for Tchaikovsky appeared as Tchaikovskiy no native English speaker would search for it, whether or not it was correct. Even if the transliteration of Shtogarenko is incorrect--and I do not think it is---, it is how his name was regularly transliterated in English while he was alive. And, he had to know about it because records and articles from the Ukraine and the Soviet Union almost always transliterated into English as SHTOGARENKO. If you Google the two spellings you will find 453 listing for Shtogarenko and 57 for Shtoharenko. (As of July 18, 2007) Nearly 10 times more entries. Obviously, the fact that there is more than one transliteration means that there is no exact sound in English for his name in Ukrainian.

It is sad that this deserving composer and his music are so little known to English audience. And I believe that if you pedantically insist on this little used transliteration, it will only hinder whatever chance he may have to become better known to native English speakers. I do not want to see this happen. I would ask you to change it back but am also going to ask an administrator to solve this. Santo Neuenwelt--July 18, 2007 1:54 am CDT.

Regarding my English - I was born and grew up in Australia (They speak English there). I currently live in Canada (They also speak English her). I studied at the Kyiv Conservatory in Ukraine. I am currently completing my doctorate in Music in Kharkiv, Ukraine (at the same music institute where Shtoharenko studied and taught for many years).

Shtoharenko is an ethnically Ukrainian composer who lived and worked all his life in Ukraine. The sources that you quote, rather than transcribe his name directly from Ukrainian transcribe it via a third language i.e. Russian. Russian does not have the sound "h". Ukrainian however has both "h" and "g". When Ukrainian is transcribed into Russian, because of the lack of the sound "h" in Russian, it is transcribed as a "G". This gives rise to many comic and perplexing examples. As a result the German surname "Hitler" is pronounced "Gitler" in Russian. Last week I saw the latest harry Potter movie in Russian in Kharkiv. Harry is translated into Russian as "Garry" Potter. Hermaine Grainger Harry's girl friend comes out as Germaine Graindzher.

Andriy is his name in Ukrainian. The Russian equivalent is Andrei. The English equivalent is Andrew.

Previously, information from the USSR (including from Eastern Ukraine) came to the West via the Russian language (just as Western Ukraine info often came to the West via Polish or German). During the period of the existence of the Soviet Union, names of composers from many of the Republics were transcribed via Russian. This led to many mistakes and inaccuracies, particularly with names from the Baltic countries and Moldova where a Latin based script was used. Today, when Ukraine is now an independent country, and where Ukrainian is the state language, there is no need to transcribe a persons name via a neighbouring language into English. There is a Ukrainian government standard with recomendations regarding transcription of Ukrainian names into English. I also understand that this is the policy which is current in Wikipedia, and it is also one of the strengths of Wikipedia, where such changes can be immediately intergrated into contemporary scholarship.--Bandurist 12:27, 25 July 2007 (UTC)


 * That's a good explanation by Bandurist, with which I concur. I also doubt that that the use of Shtoharenko over Shtogarenko is going to affect the composer's chances of fame among English audiences.  If anything, the h makes him stand out from the rest.  Lastly, Andrei and Andriy despite both meaning Andrew are dinstinct enough to warrant the usage of proper variant for those where it applies (for acceptance of Andriy transliteration, please see Andriy Shevchenko the footballer).--Riurik(discuss) 21:20, 26 July 2007 (UTC)