Talk:Anesthesiologist

Get rid of complaint boxes
The boxes on the top and bottom off the page no longer apply. How can you get rid of them? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.84.142.86 (talk) 21:41, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I removed the globalize tag, but the article only references one source (which is hardly adequate). So the other tag stays for now unless anyone disagrees. Aaron mcd (talk) 02:41, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

Statement needs valid reference
The statement "According to the Society of Anesthesiologists, Anesthesiologists provide or participate in more than 90 percent of the 40 million anesthetics delivered in the USA annually." is referenced with a marketing type web page that only provides this same statement without documented research. Was this a poll, research study, ASA member survey? This leaves a lot of room for questions and bias.

The number today is closer to 50 million anesthetics. There is limited availability to the public about the number of cases that anesthesiologists perform soley. The majority participate along side a Certified Registered Nurse Anesthetists (CRNA) who provide the vast majority of anesthesia in the United States. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 104.180.28.13 (talk) 03:21, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

Statement makes no sense
"In certain areas of the country there has been a shortage of anesthesiologists for several years. ... In many of these underserved areas, physicians supervise ACTs...." Interesting statement, in that there are CRNAs in practically every city in the nation. For example Philadelphia, Houston, Dallas, etc. has CRNAs in every major hospital - are these major cities underserved??? Also, there has been a shortage of anesthesiologist for the last 100 years, that's why there are CRNAs and AAs. Eclipse Anesthesia 21:10, 24 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Yup, just like nurse practitioners and PAs. Most MD/DOs supervise 2-4 rooms, and only begin and end, but not sit, their own cases. They also have significant roles outside the OR, but you are right, the focus on rural I think probably refers to the other mid level providers more so than CRNAs.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.176.151.10 (talk) 03:38, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

Also, in Role in Healthcare Delivery: JAQUILA MATTHEWS WANTS TO BE AN ANESTHESIOLOGIST. Is this factual? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.66.105.102 (talk) 19:02, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

ANZCA
In Australia/NZ Anaethetists are required to first sit a standard medical degree... and the training is about 7 years also... it's over 12 years all up before you enter a most junior position. 4-6 years med school, 2 years internship, 5 years minimum training in anaesthesia.

Most NZ anaethetists sit the exam in Australia under their medical board, however the "doctorate" is recognised in NZ as equivilency.
 * This is not true. It is a combined Australian_and_New_Zealand_College_of_Anaesthetists. The qualification is not a doctorate it is a fellowship (FANZCA)

Definition
I don't know

I think that the definition of an anaesthesiology needs some work. The scope is far too narrow and lacking in depth. Discussion needs to include the role of anaesthetists in managing pain and medical emergencies in addition to intraoperative sedation and traditional anaesthesia. Further, anaesthesiologists have roles in intensive care settings in some countries (like Australia). They do not simply put people to sleep, keep them asleep and wake them up, like the current defition implies. They are experts in physiology (particularly cardiorespiratory) and pharmacology, as well as being proficient saviours in the art of IV cannulation - a skill that many junior medical staff often have to fall back on for difficult veins. Finally, they act as patient representatives in the operation theatre and are great exponents of highly controlled and coordinated practice.

Perhaps some review should be taken of the definition as provided by a number of Anaesthetics Training College websites?

Since about 1988, the American Board of Anesthesiology has required 4 years of training after achieving a doctorate in order to be "Board Certified".

"Gold, et. al"
Is that an acceptible citation?

Anesthesiologists are the most likely physicians to become addicted to prescription medications.
Citation needed.

JasonBourne2007 03:58, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Why has this piece of information been given a headline in the discussion page and a citation in the main page? -- Copperman 15:53, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

No difference in outcomes link
This article is about anesthesiologists, and does not require this reference or resource. This resource should be added to an article about Nurse Anesthetist if such a page exists, or you should create the article. --Copperman 06:59, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Title: Anesthetists vs Anesthesiologist
I think that the title of the article should be Anesthetist. Anesthesiologist is only used in north america (I think Canada uses both for doctor practioners). The rest of the world uses Anesthetist. It is a little US-centric and possibly racist. In the interests of clarity, NPOV, understanding and global harmony, perhaps it might be changed.

This also means the first line in misleading. It gives the impression that Anesthetist is used only in Britain, but it is used in India (lots of doctors there), Australia, Singapore, Hong Kong, Ireland, New Zealand, South Africa, Botswana and so on.... 58.107.87.183 04:38, 24 June 2006 (UTC)


 * The style of spelling the article is first written in is the one it should stay with, according to Wikipedia policy. Don't worry - I'm sure "global harmony" isn't jeopardized because some people don't spell "Color" with a 'u'. - 68.33.120.32 00:40, 7 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I disagree with User:68.33.120.32; if only north america uses the term "-ologist" then I would support moving the name of the article to Anaesthetist. If the wiki policy on this matter described above is regarding spelling then this may not apply - this is a different word, not a different spelling of the same word. Does anyone disagree before I proceed with a name change? k1-UK-Global 14:30, 11 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Agree with Kayvan, the field is Anaesthesia, therefore Anesthesiologist is clearly incorrect, further, I have only seen Anesthesiologist in North Americal spelling, so I support the move --Varnis (talk) 11:58, 28 September 2009 (UTC)


 * However, in north america (yes, including canada), anaesthsist means something entirely different (i.e. CRNA). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.176.151.10 (talk) 03:40, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

THERE IS NO ARGUMENT. An anesthesiologist is a physician that has specialty training in the field of anesthesia and either supervises or personally delivers an anesthetic. the term anesthetist refers to a person that delivers an anesthetic. The reason for confusion is that in a lot of areas throughout the world anesthetics are administered by physicians and therefore the distinction between anesthetist and anesthesiologist is not necessary or does not exist. However in some areas of the world anesthetics are delivered by anesthetists that are not necessarily anesthesiologists (physicians) and therefore the distinction between the two is necessary.

Please feel free to see the Merriam-Webster definition of the word Anesthesiologist. Still American-centric; For definitive definitions in the english language reference Oxford English Dictionary, you will find no entry for anesthesiologist

This portion of the article needs to be re-written in order to accurately reflect the subject or the title should be changed to that of anesthetist which is the broader more inclusive term. It is not only important for this to be accurate for the article, but to maintain the validity of the overall site. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nnedeff (talk • contribs) 14:14, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

Need information on anesthesia subspecialties
I think the various subspecialties deserve more elucidation / own pages. In particular, there is precious little Wiki information on Pediatric Anesthesia. I am interested in different anesthesia approaches to neonates vs. older children, and pretty much struck out here. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by PedEye1 (talk • contribs) 15:24, 14 March 2007 (UTC).

Sweeping Edits
Not sure why the sweeping edits were made describing an Anesthesiologists work, but not only were they inappropriate, they were replaced with inaccurate data regarding the malpractice and salary issues facing Anesthesiologists. Returning to previous version. 72.185.204.89 13:18, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Anesthesiologists are "board certified" as peri-operative physicians, and the removal thereof is unnecessary. If one is not board certified, then they do not fall under the category of "board certified anesthesiologist". Furthermore, nothing was implied that AA/CRNA care was new or limited, and this article is talking about Anesthesiologists, not mid-level occupations within the medical field. The shortage of Anesthesiologists in rural areas is the primary argument for augmentation of mid-level providers, up to and including the Medicare opt-out. As such, edits will be reversed, unless said edits are reasonably discussed in this talk page. Thank you. ICUDocMD 16:37, 23 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Note to 71.233.29.56: I appreciate your enthusiasm to adding to this article, but please keep in mind wiki rules regarding edits. ICUDocMD 23:01, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Two vs. Four year premedical education
I do not see the value in bringing up 6 year medical education programs, I believe there are only 1-2 in the US out of over one hundred medical schools, the vast majority of Anesthesiologist have completed 12 years of post high school education and bringing up 10-12 seems to be superfluous. I have not edited the main page, but wonder if this has been discussed before


 * Its part of the CRNA attempt to cover up that they are nurses with 2 years extra training, compared to docs with 12-16 years of training.129.176.151.10 (talk) 03:41, 5 October 2009 (UTC).

Surge of vandalism on this page
There's been quite a bit of vandalism on this page in the past 2 days, is that an indication for locking this page down? Also, I'm not sure how to tag the users/IPs as vandals, and I can't find the help page on that. Anyone knows how to? Squiggle 15:36, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

To be straightforward, someone who is editing this page is an idiot. The section under training that describes a shortage of Anesthesiologists is under the heading- "Anesthesiologists are the best". What does that even mean? And the assertion that "jeremy stock is awsome!!" under the references convinces me that someone intentionally ruined this page.

I would say that tagging an IP won't keep a vandal from vandalizing. Lock it down until the Vandal gets bored.Seiken66 (talk) 02:04, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Globalization tag
I have removed the generic globalization tag from this article. If you think the tag is deserved, please feel free to restore it -- but please also add a clear explanation right here on this talk page. Your actual concerns are much more likely to be adequately addressed if you identify them. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:51, 4 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Restored the tag. The main body of the article is essentially "Anesthesiologists in the US" - I count eight references to the US in that section and no other countries. It needs to be more generalised, and US specific information should be in a section down the bottom with the other country specific information. Don't have knowledge of the field to fix this myself, but I think the problem is quite blatant! Nick Fel (talk) 12:28, 5 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Concur, it's very US-centric, especially the first two sections. Touchdown Turnaround (talk) 21:39, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

First three sentences make no sense.
I can tell this article has clearly been chopped and edited numerous times due to individuals with motives other than clearly defining a term on wikipedia for the uninformed, but seriously...this entry is completely unreadable now. What do the first three sentences even mean? They don't make sense.

"An anesthesiologist (US English) or anaesthetist (British English) is a physician trained in anesthesia and peri-operative medicine. However, in the United Kingdom,[clarification needed] the term anaesthetist has a broader context, to include both[clarification needed] types of practitioners. The source further defines an anesthesiologist as a physician who completes an accredited residency program in anesthesiology, usually four years following medical school."

What are "both types of practitioners"? This makes a reference that hasn't been defined.

What "source" further defines an anesthesiologist?

This whole article should be scrapped, written from scratch to define the term without all the garbage arguments between provider groups, and locked. As is it's rather useless. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.8.28.80 (talk) 16:44, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Summary:

There is merit in a complete re-write. There is a lot of ill feeling, esp in the USA I understand about the respective merits of physician and non-physician anaesthetists. In the UK the latter are no longer really developing with a few dozen such colleagues in a modest number of hospitals. This is such a bone of contention, esp in the USA that there is something to be said for an effort to edit this page and lock it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Skinner doc (talk • contribs) 20:47, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

THERE IS NO ARGUMENT. An anesthesiologist is a physician that has specialty training in the field of anesthesia and either supervises or personally delivers an anesthetic. the term anesthetist refers to a person that delivers an anesthetic. The reason for confusion is that in a lot of areas throughout the world anesthetics are administered by physicians and therefore the distinction between anesthetist and anesthesiologist is not necessary or does not exist. However in some areas of the world anesthetics are delivered by anesthetists that are not necessarily anesthesiologists (physicians) and therefore the distinction between the two is necessary. Please feel free to see the Merriam-Webster definition of the word Anesthesiologist. This portion of the article needs to be re-written in order to accurately reflect the subject or the title should be changed to that of anesthetist which is the broader more inclusive term. It is not only important for this to be accurate for the article, but to maintain the validity of the overall site.Nnedeff (talk) 14:22, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 10 August 2012
The opening section of this article should be changed. currently it states the following: "An anesthesiologist (US English) or anaesthetist (British English) is a nurse or physician trained in anesthesia and perioperative medicine."

This is a slightly inaccurate and potentially misleading statement.

"An anesthesiologist is a physician that specializes in anesthesiology. An anaesthetist (UK) or anesthetist (US) is a person that administers or provides an anesthetic, this person can be a physician (anesthesiologist) or nurse or other mid-level provider, such as an anesthesia assistant.  In many areas of the world anesthetics are administered or provided exclusively by physicians, in these cases referring to a physician or anesthesiologist as an anaesthetist or anesthetist is accurate."

Source: Merriam-Webster dictionary definition of anesthesiologist.

Regarding the confusion and the distinction between the two: The term anaesthetist or anesthetist is a broader term that encompasses anesthesiologists, which are a particular type of anaesthetist or anesthetist. So while anesthesiologists are anesthetists, not all anesthetists are anesthesiologists. This is analogous to the idea that all men are humans, but not all humans are men.

Nnedeff (talk) 15:11, 10 August 2012 (UTC)


 * While I agree with what your saying and have found a few sources to verify this, I'm unsure how to word it other than just deleting 'anaesthetist' and leave the reference to anaesthesiologists. Could you perhaps make the request in 'Change X to Y' format as the template suggests, or indicate how you think the lead sentence should read? Cheers &mdash; Deontalk 07:46, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Irrelevant trivia
This is pretty much the definition of trivia. Articles are not made up of indiscriminate facts. -- Neil N  talk to me  11:22, 1 January 2014 (UTC)

External links modified
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20070928014513/http://www.dgai.de/downloads/MuensteranerErklaerung_Parallelnarkose11-04.pdf to http://www.dgai.de/downloads/MuensteranerErklaerung_Parallelnarkose11-04.pdf

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Copy Editing going on
I am copy editing this article under GOCE Back-log Elimination Drive click here to know Work is still in progress. for any suggestions on CE work tell me here or on my talk page. Red Pen (talk) 22:11, 22 July 2017 (UTC)

Addition of "Nurse anesthesiologist"
Regarding this edit by User:Mmackinnon - this edit seems to redefine the article to deal with all providers of anesthesia (in particular, nurse anesthetists), and not just anesthesiologists. This edit removed several verifiable, published sources making reference to anesthesiologists being physicians, and added a number of links to unpublished material shared via a Dropbox account proposing "nurse anesthesiologist" as a term, chiefly appearing to be correspondence to the American Association of Nurse Anesthetists. The article did not mention non-physicians in the lede until May 2018 when Mmackinnon made this unreferenced edit. From looking at the Dropbox content, Mmackinnon appears to be its major contributor and as such this may breach WP:COI and WP:OR, and despite multiple references to the AANA, a search on the AANA website returns no results for "nurse anesthesiologist". --Kwekubo (talk) 07:58, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

First, Anesthesiologist is NOT a title. Why you keep suggesting it is i have no idea. It is a DESCRIPTOR and it describes 3 professions who are experts in the field of "Anesthesiology". The entomology of the word is clear. Anesthesia (study or practice of anesthesia) and "ology", an expert in said study. There is only ONE title for Physicians who perform anesthesia in the USA and that is PHYSICIAN. That is a title. The dropbox links show evidence that this is, in fact true.


 * 1) 1) The AANA as an association recently recognized Nurse Anesthesiologist as a descriptor. It is RIGHT in the email press release I added.


 * 1) 2) The original articles of the AANA in the late 1800s clearly state "Anesthesiology".


 * 1) 3) Dentist Anesthesiologists have existed for over 50 years. Clearly the descriptor is NOT owned by physicians.


 * 1) 4) The ASA has changed the terms to PHYSICIAN Anesthesiologist because their own research which I could post here showed that 60% of people in the USA DID NOT associate Anesthesiologist with a physician.

If you want a page about physicians then what you need to do is make one entitled PHYSICIAN ANESTHESIOLOGISTS. Not attempt to change the entire page to be about ONE of THREE professions who are experts in Anestheisa delivery and none of them are technicians. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mmackinnon (talk • contribs) 14:09, 3 September 2018 (UTC) Mmackinnon (talk) 16:12, 3 September 2018 (UTC)


 * This page is about anesthesia doctors - from the time this page was created in 2004 right up until this edit by Mmackinnon in May 2018, the article dealt solely with the medical specialty of anesthesiology and with physicians specialised in it. I note that since 2009, you have only edited the articles nurse anesthetist, anesthesiologist and anesthesia, and from your username, it appears that you are in fact a principal author of the website https://nurseanesthesiologistdescriptor.com/, as well as the unpublished document titled "Issue Brief" that you yourself added to the article as a reference via Dropbox at . There is an obvious conflict of interest here, and adding material that has not been previously published elsewhere and cannot be verified externally likely constitutes original research. I would recommend that you familiarise yourself with the Wikipedia guidelines WP:COI and WP:V, and disclose any conflicts of interest that you might have with regard to the AANA. I appreciate that in North America there does seem to be controversy regarding the names of different anesthesia providers, and it may be appropriate to mention this in an appropriate section of the article (such as the existence of dental anesthesiology residencies for dentists in the US and Canada). However, from a neutral global standpoint, the word "anesthesiologist" clearly denotes a physician! See . A Google search for "nurse anesthesiologist" reveals very little evidence that the phrase exists, other than as a mistaken form of "nurse anesthetist" - and apart from the website you authored. --Kwekubo (talk) 20:48, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

I see that this edit redefines the content of the article to include non-physician providers of anesthesia in the definition, and uses several documents shared via a Dropbox account which cannot be externally verified. As per the Wikipedia verifiability policy, "verifiability means that other people using the encyclopedia can check that the information comes from a reliable source. Wikipedia does not publish original research. Its content is determined by previously published information rather than the beliefs or experiences of its editors. Even if you're sure something is true, it must be verifiable before you can add it." I have found several reliable external sources define anesthesiology as a medical specialty and anesthesiologists as medical practitioners, including the Merriam Webster, the World Federation of Societies of Anaesthesiologists, Oxford Dictionaries, the US National Institutes of Health, theAmerican Heritage Dictionary, and Collins' Dictionary. --Kwekubo (talk) 18:07, 6 September 2018 (UTC)

The edits and the references are direct from the AANA particularly the email with the policy change recognizing Nurse Anesthesiologist. the existence of Veterinary Anesthesiologists and Dentist Anesthesiologist AND the entomology of the root "ologist" makes it clear this is NOT a term owned by physicians. The ASA data shows this to be the case. This is RIGHT from the ASA research data. https://www.dropbox.com/s/d8srsutoi4xdmul/Slide%206%20MDAs%20are%20Physicians%20VOTERS.png?dl=0 Its already in the packet i postged but clearly you did not read it. Your primary issue seems to be that you are a physician and do not want to accept it but that does not change the facts.Mmackinnon (talk) 22:11, 6 September 2018 (UTC)


 * I do see that there dental anesthesiologists (particularly in the US) and veterinary anesthesiologists do both exist, and it would be appropriate to include some mention of these in the article - but these are separate specialties of separate professions and would deserve their their own articles at dental anesthesiology and veterinary anesthesiology. This would not change the fact that the primary meaning of "anesthesiology" is the medical specialty. By comparison - even though veterinary pathologists and veterinary oncologists exist, the Pathology and Oncology articles at Wikipedia deal solely with the medical specialties of human pathology and human oncology, and there are separate articles for the veterinary specialties Veterinary pathology and Veterinary oncology. A Google search for "nurse anesthesiologist" reveals very little evidence that the phrase exists, other than as a mistaken form of "nurse anesthetist" - quite frankly, readers of Wikipedia articles must be able to check that any of the information within Wikipedia articles is not just made up! Anyone can create a personal web page or Dropbox account to share a document - for that reason, self-published media are largely not acceptable (see WP:RSSELF). Can you provide references to external, verifiable, reliable sources showing that the phrase "nurse anesthesiologist" is actually in use? Thanks --Kwekubo (talk) 23:09, 6 September 2018 (UTC)

I've asked twice that you please discuss this matter. I'm going to go ahead and make the changes I've described above. If you revert without responding here, then I'm going to have to file a complaint against you at ANI for disruptive editing by reverting without discussing.— Kwekubo (talk) 22:07, 16 September 2018 (UTC).

@kwekubo I have replied, the evidence is clear and i stand by what i said. The only reason you want to change the article is because you have a vested interest in it. However, the etymology of the work "anesthesiologist" has not changed no matter how much YOU want it to. Nurse Anesthesiologist has been accepted as a descriptive term just as dentist and vet anesthesiologists has been. This is nothing new. The article is "anesthesiologist" not PHYSICIANS. And there are 3 types here in the USA.Mmackinnon (talk) 23:36, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

What "evidence" are you talking about? When you "stand by what [you] said" that is a statement of opinion not fact. Fake sources and logical fallacies abound. Unfortunately another example of militant CRNA tactics. Claim to be something you are not, and then accuse others of impropriety when called out for it. So because many patients do not realize their anesthesiologist is a physician, you've decided to latch on to that term? In other words, instead of increasing patient awareness of Anesthesiologists and CRNAs, you try to muddy the waters and spread disinformation. I don't call myself a "physician anesthesiologist", I call myself an anesthesiologist. This is a term that has been used since its inception to denote a PHYSICIAN. I suspect if you had it your way you wouldn't call yourself a "nurse anesthesiologist", you would abbreviate it to just anesthesiologist. Also, it does not take full time 7-8 years to train to be a CRNA with a DNP. Look up the curriculum. Eikenhein (talk) 00:15, 10 October 2018 (UTC)

Request for comment on definition of anesthesiologist

 * The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Dispute over whether the word "anesthesiologist" denotes a medical doctor, or whether the word can be applied to various types of professional involved in providing anesthesia. 07:11, 17 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Badly formed RfC - Please indicate in RfC's what content is actually being debated. Asking random questions like "Is an Anesthesiologist a doctor?" (they are BTW), isn't an effective way of doing RfC's. NickCT (talk) 13:44, 17 September 2018 (UTC)
 * My apologies. This RfC relates to a series of edits starting in May 2018 by User:Mmackinnon, rewriting the article to state that anesthesiologists may be any of doctors, nurses, dentists or veterinary surgeons. I came across the article in late August and added several sources making reference to anesthesiologists being doctors; this was reverted, with a number of links being added to unpublished material shared via a Dropbox account proposing the term "nurse anesthesiologist". There seems to be a conflict of interest, as User:Mmackinnon is co-author of at least one of the articles he has shared via his Dropbox account, and appears to have been involved in efforts earlier this year to coin the term "nurse anesthesiologist" and to promote its use instead of "nurse anesthetist". I edited the article on two occasions to remove these links, but they were reverted; I began discussion at Talk:Anesthesiologist, but this has stalled and seems to have run as far as it can without seeking the opinion of other editors. -Kwekubo (talk) 17:21, 17 September 2018 (UTC)
 * - Ok. This seems like a pretty clear WP:PRIMARYTOPIC issue. I haven't tested this, but I'm pretty confident that in English language sources the primary topic for "Anesthesiologist" is for medical doctors called anesthesiologists. If there are other peoeple called anesthesiologists, those people should be indicated on a disambig page. NickCT (talk) 17:59, 17 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Nick is probably correct. This dictionary entry specifies that an anesthesiologist is a physician.  WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:24, 17 September 2018 (UTC)
 * See Nurse anesthetist. The disambig page from here should lead there. NickCT (talk) 18:01, 17 September 2018 (UTC)
 * comment agree w/ NickCT--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 17:54, 17 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Concur with NickCT that 'anaesthesiologist' denotes someone who holds an MD and specializes in anaesthesiology. The accepted generic for non-MDs practicing anaesthesiology, at least in the US, is 'anaesthetist'. Vaticidalprophet (talk) 08:33, 23 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Agree with NickCT and Vaticidalprophet et al. JonRichfield (talk) 14:44, 24 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Comment - Summoned by bot. Agree with above users. An anesthesiologist is a doctor. Meatsgains (talk) 02:25, 8 October 2018 (UTC)
 * An anesthesiologist is a doctor. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 23:40, 14 October 2018 (UTC)


 * The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Protected
I have fully protected this page for a week to allow consensus to be formed on the talk page. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 05:54, 26 September 2018 (UTC)