Talk:Angeles City/Archive 2

POV and Factual accuracy Dispute
From the comments on this page and the content of the article in question, as well as some research of my own, I have tagged this page as potentially POV and nonfactual. I would ask that this tag not be removed until a more thorough evaluation can be done. -- Sir Escher talk 21:58, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Are the sources "Statistics and the State of the Philippines" by Gabriela and "Trafficking in Women and Prostitution in the Asia Pacific" by CATW - Asia Pacific available anywhere? Given the missourcing of some statements, I would like to check that they back up what the statements citing them say. --Sam Blanning(talk) 22:03, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Not that I can find. If they don't show up in a couple days, these statements should probably be removed. -- Sir Escher talk 22:50, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

I have removed the sentence: "However, the census is misleading as it did not include the slum areas which may hold up to a population of 300,000. As well the census did not include women and children held captive in the brutal sex slavery trade in Angeles with figures ranging of in excess of 200,000. ref" as the reference cited does not have this information. The closest it has is It is estimated that over 100,000 girls under the age of 18 work as prostitutes in the Philippines., which is not at all the same. -- Sir Escher talk 22:24, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Here is the link to establish the sources..."Statistics and the State of the Philippines" by Gabriela and "Trafficking in Women and Prostitution in the Asia Pacific" by CATW - Asia Pacific. ....http://www.uri.edu/artsci/wms/hughes/philippi.htm, if needed I can get both these agencies to contact the moderators directly to verify.

I believe the angeles article should also link to this page on wikipedia about Apple Tours which was involded in the sex tourism in angeles....http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Apple_Oriental_Tours

Here is the link that gives information about Apple Tours operations in Angeles....http://www.preda.org/archives/research/st/enow040301.html ,

I feel the section on sex slavery in Angeles should stay, but as the moderators have pointed out, it needs to be sourced and referenced better, and I will do this over the next few days. I feel the link..http://www.preda.org/archives/research/cpr/stribune060924.html... should be added to the article to highlight the varying figures on child prostitution in Angeles, with a mention that the trade is transient in that the sex slaves are shifted from different parts of the country, and very often trafficked to other countries....if you need a source on that ill get one. As i said, im new here, but if the mods can guide me, ill get back with the referenced spources to establish the article....

thankyouSusanbryce 13:00, 27 December 2006 (UTC)Susan Bryce, 11.00 27 december, 2006.


 * First, you have not actually provided the sources for "Statistics and the State of the Philippines" by Gabriela and "Trafficking in Women and Prostitution in the Asia Pacific" by CATW - Asia Pacific, you have only provided a link that cites them. But from that link, it is apparent that those two sources are between 10 and 15 years old, and may not even be relevant anymore. Furthermore, the page you cited does not support the two statements (which I have removed here). It does not say anything about the Yakuza being in Angeles City, and it only mentions one case of a police officer assaulting anyone in Angeles. While this could possibly go in the article (although I don't think it is noteworthy), it is not the same as "many police officers and government officials are involved in the sex slavery trade and also have sexually assaulted or exploited girls".


 * As for Big Apple Oriental Tours, I have added a note on how Angeles City was a destination during the 90's, but I have seen nothing to indicate that it is still ongoing.


 * The last link you have given would maybe be acceptable as further reading, but as it is a news article written to persuade, and gives no sources, I would not think it is acceptable as a valid source. It should definitely not be added to "highlight" anything, as it is not NPOV. If you can get proper sources for those statements, we can see about putting them into the article, but for the moment, they should stay where they are. -- Sir Escher talk 21:50, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

The more I look at this article, and the sources "supporting" the section on human slavery and trafficking, the more I think this whole section should be removed, and a paragraph added to the history section about how in the 90's, Angeles City was a common destination for sex tours, and how many of the prostitutes were children. Most of the information I have been given pertains more to the Philippines than to Angeles City specifically, and is being taken out of context to defame the city. I would like the opinions of other editors on this, if anyone is following this. -- Sir Escher talk 22:04, 27 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree. We could reduce that information down to a paragraph or so, with citations, but to actually have a larger section devoted to this we need more (and more recent) verification than provided. -- Kesh 22:12, 27 December 2006 (UTC)


 * That seems fair. If some discussion of Angeles City as a current "adult tourist" destination is appropriate, I suggest that whom ever writes it be familiar with how the associated bars and businesses really operate.  One might start with these websites:
 * http://www.balibago.com/
 * http://www.sexwork.com/philippines/legalprost.html
 * --Mlshanks 11:33, 28 December 2006 (UTC)


 * While Mlshanks removing the notes from the article and placing them here (below) was ill advised, given the current discussion and the state it left the article in, I accept the move for the time being. The consensus seems to be to permanently remove that section, and instead add a paragraph to the history section. -- Sir Escher talk 12:48, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

For the new paragraph to replace the removed notes on the sex trade industry, I propose the following text. It can be cited properly once the wording is agreed upon. Note that it is only a draft, and should not be put on the article page until it is agreed upon and cited properly. "In the early 1990s, Angeles City was known as a 'Sex Capital' with tourists traveling to the city to visit sex workers, many of whom were underage. It was said that there were 'sex tours' operating within Angeles City at the time, climaxing in a tour organization, Big Apple Oriental Tours, being charged in United States court with supporting the prostitution industry, though the allegations were never proven. In 1997 there was a police crackdown to clean up the nightclubs in the city. Little has been documented about the sex industry in Angeles City since that time, which may imply that the cleanup was successful." -- Sir Escher talk 12:48, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

''Moved from above. It is more pertinent to the current discussion, and was not all by Susan Bryce. -- Sir Escher talk 11:53, 28 December 2006 (UTC)''

Additional problematic text removed:

In 1997, it was estimated that of the 500 sex workers in Angeles City, 75% were children.

Not only is this material dated,; but it is mis-characterized, as the original article does not seem to apply to all of Angeles City's adult entertainment industry (which includes many MORE than 500 sex workers, albeit almost none under 18) but rather a specific area of town since cleaned up by the local government. see: http://www.sexwork.com/philippines/legalprost.html

"The child welfare organization Preda works to oppose the child sex slavery trade in Angeles. Working undercover, volunteers with hidden cameras have uncovered child brothels in Angeles."

As above, dated material... (same source) No evidence of current issue.

The United States, "State Department watch list of Asia Pacific countries", has placed the Philippines on the "Tier 2 Watch List". The report stated that the Philippine government did "not fully comply with the minimum standards for the elimination of trafficking."

The quote does not directly address Angeles City...and while *dubiously* relevant to the article on the nation of the Philippines, is pretty much a "guilt by association" red herring.

In the mid 1990s, Angeles City was a popular destination for Big Apple Oriental Tours, where customers could "select [their] companion upon arrival in Angeles City.”

The problem is, this implies that Big Apple Oriental Tours was in some way involved in "Human slavery and trafficking in Angeles," which has NEVER been demonstrated. Quite the contrary, when NY state twice attempted to charge the business with "promoting prostitution," the charges were twice dismissed. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Apple_Oriental_Tours) --Mlshanks 11:31, 28 December 2006 (UTC)


 * With these notes removed, the section on sex trade in Angeles City has no real support. For the time being (and probably permanently), I have removed the rest of it, see here. Please see the discussion above about rewriting this information into a paragraph. -- Sir Escher talk 12:05, 28 December 2006 (UTC)


 * make only a real story about angeles city,i'm also from angeles city sapang bato... susan if u make a story about angeles, make it real o.k.. 208.52.112.70 03:46, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
 * who said than angeles city has a killing fields prove it pls.. we only asking???69.46.143.116 00:04, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm honestly not sure who you're asking. Your question isn't very clear. Also, please put your signature at the end of your comment, instead of the beginning! -- Kesh 00:42, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Cleanup here
I've tried to clean up this talk page by making section breaks where appropriate, adding the Unsigned template to user comments where I could, and moving one user's comments out of the middle of someone else's. Hopefully this will make a little more sense now.

Please, folks, remember to sign your comments by putting four tildes at the end of your reply, or clicking on the "Sign your name" link below the "Save Page" button. --Kesh 04:41, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks for doing that. It was quite a confusing read. -- Sir Escher talk 06:22, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

One main problem with most of the reports about underage entertainers is the fact that the average Filippina looks about ten years younger a girl her age in the States or Europe. No girl is allowed to work without a Mayors Permit. To obtain a mayors permit it must be proven via the National Statistics Office in Manila that the individual is actually of legal age. Very stringent controls are established to ensure that no underage children are working in the various entertainment business's in Angeles. Oddly enough, a lot of girls enjoy pulling the customers leg so to speak and like to lead him to believe they are younger than they really are. It is a shame that reporters arrive here in Angeles City and believe everything they are told without actually researching the true facts of ages etc. One way that will usually let you know the true age of a girl is by talking about her children and how old they are. Then all of a sudden when you find out that the girl has children eight years old and up you realize that she is definately a lot older than 18. Daddyo2 16:19, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

A Comment from Resident of Angeles City
I have lived in Angeles City for more than twenty five years. The statements pertaining to killing fields could possibly have came originally from an an area on Clark AB where the local Aetna's would kill trespassers on Clark with blowguns and leave them. This was discovered when the base had the grass all mowed down. Any statements about child prostitution is extremely invalid as pointed out by another poster. Using lies put out by certain feminist organizations as a reference is totally invalid. Prostitution is illegal in the Philippines and it is not correct to say that Angeles City is filled with Prostitution. What is actually the case is that because the Philippines is a very poor english speaking country, many girls from all over the country have came to Angeles city and work in various clubs where they have a chance to go out with and associate with tourists. No girl is ever required to sleep with any tourist. It is very common as a result for long term relationships and marriages to develop. As a direct result of this, certain feminist organizations are strongly against Angeles City.

As stated recently by the Mayor of Angeles City, anyone calling a girl in Angeles City a whore with out proof will be criminally charged under Philippine law.

We do not want you putting this type of false information out about Angeles City as it will only result in an influx of Pedophiles which we don't want.

Pertaining to the quoted legal case about an Australian pedophile, the individual concerned has been found not guilty by the legal system in the Philippines and using that as a reference is improper.

The statement about the census is way off base. Every shack in the slums is registered with the local barangay for purposes of ownership. While the people living in the slums may not own the land, they own the improvements they make on the land and are very well protected by law. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Daddyo2 (talk • contribs) 21:44, 26 December 2006 (UTC)


 * angeles city is not like cambodia or vietnam have a killings fields, who are to said than about the killings fields in angeles where did u get than story.. u insult the people of angeles city, we the kapampangang we don't have a killings fields here in angeles city. go to angeles check yourselffffff o.k isulat lang ang katotohanan samahan kapampangang!!!! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 208.52.112.70 (talk • contribs) 23:05, December 26, 2006 (UTC)

Comment From Susan Bryce, also born in Angeles: I was born in Angeles and spent most of my childhood there. I lived not far from the base, in those days the roads were all dirst, the base was surrounded by razor wire, and thousands of bars providing women and child prostitutes to the military off the base. When the base closed, the government gave an undertaking to the people of Angeles that there would be no more sex slavery, but when Manila mayor took on the organized crime gangs in the ermita area and shut them down, they shifted their operations to angeles, From here they easily paid off corrupt government officials and have grown their sex slavery business to be a multi-billion dollar empire. No matter who you talk to in Angeles, they are sick of this sex slavery trade and what is happening to Filipino children. The churches constantly condemn the sex slavery trade and there are constant protests against what is happening. Pedophiles in angeles are a well oragized and highly financed group that will stop at nothing to keep this dirty business going. One thing they dont want is International attention, as such they want no mention of this sex slavery trade anywhere on the article about angelesSusanbryce 13:12, 27 December 2006 (UTC)Susan Bryce, 27 december, 2006.208.52.112.70 14:06, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
 * visit holy angel university. visit kapampangang center, you can see the story about the angeles city in his people living in angeles o.k susan visit yourself!!!!! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 208.52.112.70 (talk • contribs) 09:06, January 4, 2007 (UTC)