Talk:Anglo-Saxon Federation of America

Founding date and other faulty data
I changed the founding date on this page from 1933 to 1930. I have not found any reliable sources that indicate a 1933 founding date. However, Barkun (who is one of the most cited sources on BI and CI topics) indicates a 1930 date. Barkun does not specifically state "founded in 1930," but he does say that it held its first convention in Detroit in May 1930. That would have been a significant feat if they founded in 1933! The Oregon branch was founded in 1931, and the second convention was in Chicago in 1931. It was at Chicago that Rand announced the Federation had acquired Totten's works.

I believe the 1933 date stems from a misreading of a paragraph here: https://www.encyclopedia.com/religion/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/british-israelism-0. Interestingly, this article's statements, although not specifically referenced as a source, are nearly identical to what was on this page, so I assume this was the original source here. I say "misreading" because as near as I can tell, there is no "Anglo-Saxon Federation" separate from the "Anglo-Saxon Federation of America." The encyclopedia.com entry is shorthanding the title of the referenced group (they are the same) and the sentence is stating that William Cameron became president of the group by 1933. The assumption that this sentence references a separate group comes from the next sentence ("unable to unite the two groups"), which is more likely referring to the Federation and Rand's original group he started in his home in 1928. I believe this is where the faulty founding date originated.


 * Certainly, I am human and prone to error. However, I can find no reliable source data that indicates a 1933 founding date. If you disagree, please provide sources for this claim. Butlerblog (talk) 14:18, 23 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Barkun lists in his bibliography, among several other sources, the "Business Report of the Federation,” Bulletin (AngloSaxon Federation of America) 2 (October 1931). He later lists several other "Bulletin" editions. So if Bulletin 2 was in 1931, that would indicate 1933 as an erroneous founding date. A search on WorldCat indicates the earliest published work attributed to the Federation as 1930 (http://worldcat.org/identities/lccn-n94024184/). WorldCat also lists "The Anglo-Saxon Federation of America" as the publisher of Rand's book "The Two Witnesses: the Eleventh Chapter of Revelation", published in 1931. Butlerblog (talk) 18:05, 23 April 2020 (UTC)


 * The source of the original date I called into question appears to be James Lewis' "The Encyclopedia of Cults, Sects, and New Religions". The original edition of the page which included the quote I questioned is quoting Lewis' work almost vertabim. Based on the data I outlined above, and considering the Barkun's work is far more in depth, I suggest the 1933 date is erroneous and a 1930 date is more likely accurate. Butlerblog (talk) 19:08, 23 April 2020 (UTC)

Information on Cameron, additional sources
It seems the best source by far is Michael Barkun's detailed work on Christian Identity. There are some other good sources out there. Does anyone know of any reliable academic sources beyond Barkun or Charles Roberts, especially sources with more information about William J. Cameron? Also, much of the initial article weighted Rand very heavily as the source of anti-Semitism as a bridge to Christian Identity. But Cameron's influence should not be discounted. As Barkun writes, Cameron played a significant role (if not the primary role) in the shift in the ASWF from the more philo-Semitic views of the BIWF. Interestingly, there is no Cameron page (yet) and Cameron himself seems to have attempted to downplay his involvement in Ford's anti-Semitic "International Jew" publication. There needs to be some more information on that, if not here, then on his own page. And speaking of "his own page," the bio info on this page regarding Rand is a little heavy (and essentially the same as what is on his own page). I realize he was an influence, but the page is about the ASWF, not Rand. Butlerblog (talk) 15:16, 24 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I added a source - Ralph Lord Roy's Apostles of Discord. Barkun refers to this as the only history of CI until "the last few years." This work definitely ties Cameron to Rand and the original founding in Detroit 1930. Butlerblog (talk) 15:32, 30 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Another seemingly good source on Cameron's involvement in the founding (along with better dates, names, and locations) is Neil Baldwin's Henry Ford and the Jews: The Mass Production of Hate. Although Baldwin reference's Barkun's work (doesn't everyone?), he gives additional color that Barkun did not. Both went back to Reminiscences, a series of archival taped interviews done by the Ford Motor Company.Butlerblog (talk) 21:37, 2 May 2020 (UTC)

Roberts as a source
I did some cleanup of citations, and in so doing, the Charles Roberts reference (Race Over Grace: The Racialist Religion of the Christian Identity Movement) was identified as self published (iUniverse). I'm just noting it here for anyone that might want to comment on it as to reliability as a source. The information referenced here does not seem to conflict with academic sources (such as Barkun), and it does give some additional sourcing that is not Barkun. I'll research it some more and may post an addendum to this, but in the meantime if anyone has an issue or supports Roberts as a source, speak up. Butlerblog (talk) 14:05, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I did find Roberts' work referenced in at least one other book (Pentecostal Modernism: Lovecraft, Los Angeles, and World-Systems Culture by Stephen Shapiro and Philip Barnard from Bloomsbury Publishing). Butlerblog (talk) 15:44, 30 April 2020 (UTC)