Talk:Aniconism in Judaism

Second Commandment
I think I can answer number 5, the second commandment reads "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand {generations} of those who love me and keep my commandments." In the NIV, the contemporary english version, and a few others. Some other versions say graven image, like the KJV. But if you look at the Wikipedia definition of "graven", it says graven is literally anything created by man in the image of something. Words are created by man to be in the image of letters that we can understand. Therefore, if it meant that you can't make images of anything at all, then it would seem to me that handwriting would be illegal, and since God himself was telling Moses what to write down for the Torah, you can see how there would be a problem. Most likely, what the KJV and a couple other writers meant was that you shouldn't make special objects in the image of something or things that you worship to, and I get the feeling that the literal definition of that Hebrew meaning isn't exactly meaning the image of anything. The English standard version also renders it as a "carved image", so that might be representing how the definition of that hebrew might not mean exactly "graven". To get this information I used Biblegateway.com, you can look them up yourself if you like, just look for Exodus 20 in the search thing. As for why not making any images probably died out, it's probably because back then it was hard to make things like paintings in the first place, and back then, nobody really needed to see nice renditions of Christ or things to get a better idea of the Lord's sacrifice for us all, but then again, that's just my opinion :/.Homestarmy 02:22, 2 February 2006 (UTC) There's probably some apologetist sites out there who have probably examined this in more detail though.


 * The Hebrew root פסל unambiguously means "to carve" or some variant thereof. The NIV translates it as "to chisel" in Exodus 34:1, 4 and Deuteronomy 10:1, 3; I can't find any other uses of the root as a verb in the Hebrew Bible, but all translations that I know of are in agreement on the meaning of the root. &mdash;Simetrical (talk • contribs) 04:34, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Ah, well then, there you have it, it certainly doesn't mean simply to make, you don't have to carve something to make an image, and one would hope then you wouldn't start praying to it or something. Homestarmy 13:38, 2 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Oh how helpful it is to actually ask an Orthodox Jew.   In Jewish law, it applies to sculpture, and to specific sculptures carved in specific positions which are common to idols.  It does not apply to secular art, photography, etc. I shall add a summary of this info from the Code of Jewish Law.  Rooster613 14:27, 6 February 2006 (UTC)Rooster613


 * Rooster613 here again...I made a few changes, saved them, and then when I came back with a lot more info and sources, the page would not let me save my new edits. ???  Has it been frozen temporarily?  I have the additional info on my hard drive if and when I can put it up there... Rooster613 15:32, 6 February 2006 (UTC)Rooster613.

Footnoting in Judaism section
The footnote numbering in the Judaism section is messed up due to new notes being added, resulting in duplicate numbers. In several cases I changed it to using parentheses for this reason. In one case incorrect coding blanked out the quote being quoted -- I fixed that. But I suggest putting refs. in parentheses instead of note links until the edits on this page die down somewhat and we reach some sort of consensus on the text. Then somebody can go through and number the notes consecutively. For Bible refs. and Shulchan Arukh, I think it is easier for people to follow if you just put chapter and verse in parentheses. Opinions? Rooster613 18:22, 7 February 2006 (UTC)Rooster613
 * I thought the tags auto-numbered? &mdash;Simetrical (talk • contribs) 02:46, 10 February 2006 (UTC)


 * The should have, but they weren't, due to syntax errors. Rooster613 14:55, 27 February 2006 (UTC)Rooster613

Basic error
There appears to be a basic error here. There are two separate prohibitions in Judaism.


 * Creating an Idol
 * Creating certain other images

The first is in the so-called "Ten Commandments", ans refers only to figures made for worship, but the second is a completely different prohibition, derived from a few verses later, based on the fact that there is an etnachta (a semi-colon, more or less), so that the verse reads as follows - Do not make that which is with me (Lo/Ta'asun/Iti); gods of silver and gods of gold do not make for yourselves. This latter prohibition is subject to a wide variety of opinions as to where it applies. See Rashi ad. loc. and the lists of commandments by Maimonides and others.Mzk1 (talk) 20:07, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

Also, I do not understand all of the surprise at finding two-dimensional pictures. There are plenty of examples of illustrated Haggadot and Megilot throughout the middle ages and later. On the other hand, both ancient and modern Jewish coins do not contain raised images of the rulers. This whole article makes no sense.Mzk1 (talk) 20:16, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

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