Talk:Anime/Archive 9

Sectioning
Notes regarding the sectioning of this article: KyuuA4 18:38, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Influence on Western Culture
This section seems to slowly be getting off topic. Instead of having separate sections for conventions and japanophilia, maybe this should all be combined into one paragraph stating that these are all examples of anime's influence.

Also, the section right abov--Opacic (talk) 03:02, 19 January 2008 (UTC)e, Anime and the Internet, seems a bit unnecessary. Perhaps that should just be combined under fansubs saying something like, With the expansion of the internet, the fansub community has exploded with the new ease of distribution and ability to coordinate groups from distant areas, etc. Regardless, the current wording of that section needs to be reworked and / or given a citation that confirms that anime distrubution has increase due to the internet and that anime distribution was limited before the internet, as is suggested in the current wording. I'm not sure if I completely agree with that.

If I don't see any discussion one way or the other, I'll start overhauling those sections. Djfinn 17:43, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, I've been dividing parts into sections for organizational purposes. Plus, they are distinct topics with relation to anime.  If necessary, yes.  They'll be collapsed into one.  If length is an issue, other sections are needing attention in that regard, particularly Television. EDIT: And I just realized, nothing mentioning AMV's. KyuuA4 16:37, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Also, the Internet's role can later be incorporated over to Fansubbing because it's very directly related. OR, fansubbing can be incorporated under Internet.  Nevertheless, the fandom growth can be greatly attributed to the Internet. KyuuA4 18:03, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Distribution
The same principle can be applied to the distribution section, particularly when Fansubbing and the Internet are directly related; yet, fansubbing has been around well before the popularity of the Internet via distribution through VHS tapes. KyuuA4 18:38, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Anime Style Section -- Visual Characteristics
This is by far the most difficult thing to describe about anime, especially when production outside Japan is starting to resemble more and more like anime. This effect is more prominent over in the manga article. For neutrality, it is best to look at the basic characteristics of anime and try to "quantify" them. KyuuA4 04:23, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

That might be hard to do. I've been watching Anime a long time and it's really difficult for me to explain the diffrence between American Anime and Japanese Anime. --ShortShadow 02:14, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
 * A common answer is the "feel" of it. Of course, the question from that -- where does that feel come from?  Well, taking the "style" section, it's possible to examine a few series and simply break it down to identify a few traits. KyuuA4 16:34, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Eyes
Request image of an anime eye with direct comparison to an actual human eye. KyuuA4 17:10, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Try Image:Anime eye.svg. Ppk01 16:52, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Backgrounds
Unfortunately, Google searches for "anime backgrounds" produces desktop wallpapers. Searches for "anime settings" produces nothing relevant. Inquiring regarding the background of designing anime scenery. How to Draw Manga has a series on backgrounds, but I do not have access to that material at this time. KyuuA4 17:15, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

As far as western appearenace vs japanese appearance i would say that japanese anime is often much more colorful and bright, and often focuses on humor and sexual themes moreso that americanized anime which is often darker in color schemes and has more even more adult style themes and charecters. anyone agree?Kou Nurasaka (talk) 16:23, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Image for Anime Setting or Background
Request a sample image depicting the typical anime setting or background. If you can include such an example, that would be much appreciated. Thank you. KyuuA4 01:50, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

United States
I removed this and brought it here because it explicitly talks about the United States. However, some of this is still good enough for use. "Beyond Japan" is simply not just the United States. KyuuA4 16:01, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Current reception in the United States
AnimeNation’s John Oppliger had this to say on the matter:

"The support for anime among American anime fans is very strong. The availability of anime in America is truly impressive, especially within the anime fan community. Awareness of Japanese animation in America is at an all time high. However, mainstream acceptance of anime in America lags far behind the advances anime has made in other respects. A close examination of the support for anime on American television may provide a revealing and realistic gauge of the actual penetration of anime into America and American culture. Anime may seem like it's tremendously successful in America because its high profile, but the facts tell another story.

According to AC Nielsen, Pixar's The Incredibles sold 16 million copies on DVD in America last year. Shark Tale sold nearly 10 million copies. Even the DVD release of Bambi sold 6 million copies in 2005. In comparison, all four Inuyasha movies combined have sold just over 1 million copies in the past year and a half. Evidently, the success of anime in America is very relative. American anime fans are very devoted. Through underground means hardcore American fans now have access to brand new Japanese anime before even many Japanese residents do. America's anime fan community is influential because it's affluent and highly motivated; but not very large."

Despite assessments like that, and its rare and limited release in American theaters, anime's legitimacy and respect in North America has grown well enough to garner major native artistic awards such as the Academy Award for Best Animated Feature in 2002 for Spirited Away by Hayao Miyazaki. Anime has a dedicated fan following in English speaking countries, particularly active on the internet, and at conventions regularly held throughout the US and UK.

Sections needing citations
Here are the sections removed for being un-sourced for too long. We can work on them here on the talk page till they're ready to be put back in the article. I'm bumping each section up another = so they stay within this talk heading, so they will each need to have one removed before they are put back in. -- Ned Scott 06:30, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
 * How about we put the sections back in for now, rip out the Template:Unreferencedsects and stick a Template:Citations missing or Template:Pagenumbers in there? --Ppk01 17:46, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Music
Just like movie soundtracks, music to anime can be sold as Anime soundtracks. They are oftentimes met with similar demand as chart topping pop albums. It is for this reason that anime music is often composed and performed by 'A-list' musicians, stars, and composers. Anime series with opening credits use the opening theme song as a quick introduction to the show. The most frequent use of music in Anime is background music or BGM. BGM is used to set the tone of a given scene, for example Neon Genesis Evangelion's "Decisive Battle" is played when the characters are making battle preparations and it features heavy drum beats and a militaristic style which highlights the tension of the scene and hints at the action to follow.

The theme song (also referred to as the Opening song or abbreviated as OP) usually matches the overall tone of the show, and serves to get the viewer excited about the upcoming program. Insert songs and ending songs (abbreviated ED) often make commentary about the plot or the program as a whole, and are oftentimes used to highlight a particularly important scene. Opening and ending themes, as well as insert songs, are frequently performed by popular musicians or Japanese idols, so in this way, songs become a very important component of an anime program. In addition to the themes, the seiyū (Japanese term for voice actors) for a specific anime also frequently releases CD for their character, called Image Albums. Despite the word "image" in the CD's name, it only contains music and/or "voice messages" (where the seiyū talks with the audience or about herself), making the listener think that the character him/herself is singing. Another type of Anime CD release are Drama CDs, featuring songs and tracks which makes use of the seiyū to tell a story, often not included in the main anime.

Techniques
The basics of anime is based on traditional animation. While anime is considered separate from cartoons, anime still uses multiple still images in rapid succession to produce the animated visual effect. Like all animation, the production processes of storyboarding, voice acting, character design, cel production, etc. still apply. With improvements in computer technology, computer animation increased the efficiency of the whole production process.

Most anime drawing styles used for television is counter-productive to the animation process. The anime style emphasizes detail which subsequently creates difficulty with meeting production schedules and budgets. This is in contrast to animation styles with design ethics stressing simplicity. Thus, the anime style has a philosophy of applying more effort into each of a few drawings than less effort into one of many.

Osamu Tezuka adapted and simplified many Disney animation precepts to reduce the budget costs and number of frames in the production. This was intended to be a temporary measure to allow him to produce one episode every week with an inexperienced animation staff. Some animators in Japan overcome production budgets by utilizing different techniques than the Disney or the old Tezuka/Otsuka methods of animating anime. Due to reduced frame rate, several still shots and scrolling backgrounds, more time can be spent on detail in each drawing. Animator Yasuo Ōtsuka was a pioneer of this technique. Directors such as Hiroyuki Imaishi (Cutey Honey, Dead Leaves) simplify backgrounds so that more attention can be paid to character animation. Other animators like Tatsuyuki Tanaka (in Koji Minamoto's Eternal Family in particular) use squash and stretch, an animation technique not often used by Japanese animators; Tanaka makes other shortcuts to compensate for this. Anime studios use techniques to draw as little new animation as possible such as using dialogue that involves only animating mouths while the rest of the screen remains absolutely unchanged, a technique familiar to Western animation styles.

Some higher-budgeted television and OVA (Original Video Animation) series are made without resorting to the shortcuts found in most other anime. Classic films, such as those produced by Toei Animation up until the mid 1960s, and recent big budget films, such as those produced by the enormously successful Studio Ghibli have much higher production budgets, due to their anticipated success at the box office.

Some anime titles lack a directorial system. Animation productions tend to keep to a set style by the director or animation director, but animation director Yoshinori Kanada dispensed with this and allowed each animator to bring their own individual style to the work. An example of this is the The Hakkenden that showed constantly shifting styles of animation from episode to episode, based upon the key animator that worked on that particular episode.

Some non-Japanese animations are starting to incorporate mainstream anime shortcuts and symbols in an attempt to appeal to existing anime fans, cut costs, and sometimes simply because of creators' own interest in anime.

Companies
Anime is produced by Anime companies. It is common for several companies to collaborate on different aspects of an anime to produce the finished product. Profits are gained by television and box office release and also by retail release, commonly through the sale of DVDs. Merchandise is also a source of substantial income.

Production types of anime
Most anime can be categorized as one of three types:
 * Films, which are generally released in theaters, represent the highest budgets and generally the highest video quality. Anime movies that have broken profit earning records include Akira, Ghost in the Shell, Spirited Away, and Fullmetal Alchemist the Movie: Conqueror of Shamballa. Some anime films are only released at film or animation festivals and are shorter and sometimes lower in production values. Some examples of these are Winter Days and Osamu Tezuka's Legend of the Forest. Other types of films include compilation movies, which are television episodes edited together and presented in theaters for various reasons, and are hence a concentrated form of a television serial. These may, however, be longer than the average movie. There are also theatrical shorts derived from existing televisions series and billed in Japanese theaters together to form feature-length showing.
 * Television series anime is syndicated and broadcast on television on a regular schedule. Television series are generally low quality compared to OVA (Original Video Animation) and film titles, because the production budget is spread out over many episodes rather than a single film or a short series. Most episodes are about 23 minutes in length, to fill a typical thirty-minute time slot with added commercials. One full season is 26 episodes, and many titles run half seasons, or 13 episodes. Most TV series anime episodes will have opening credits, closing credits, and often an "eyecatch", a very short scene, often humorous or silly, that is used to signal the start or end of the commercial break (as "bumpers" in the United States are used in a similar fashion). "Eyecatch" scenes are often found in TV series anime and are generally similar throughout the series. The ending credits are often followed by a preview of the next episode.
 * OVA (Original Video Animation; sometimes OAV, or Original Animated Video) anime is often similar to a television miniseries. OVAs can be any number of episodes in length; one-shots are particularly short, usually less than film-length. They are most commonly released directly to video. As a general rule, OVA anime tends to be of higher production quality than that of TV episodes, approaching that of films. Titles tend to have a continuing plot, as opposed to episodic conclusions. Opening credits, closing credits, and eyecatches may sometimes be found in OVA releases, but not universally.

Franchising
It is common for one title to spawn several different releases. A title that starts as a popular television series, for example, may have a movie adapted from it at a later date. An example is the Tenchi Muyo! series; originally an OVA, it spawned three movies, three television series, and several spin-off titles and specials. Not all successors to an anime are a sequel to the original story; prequels and alternate stories (sometimes known as gaiden (外伝)) are commonly adapted from the original.

Vandalism
Y'know, the anime page has been getting a lot of vandalism lately... maybe we should consider semi-protecting it? --Ppk01 09:10, 30 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, I come here this morning only to find the article with nothing more than "ANIME SUCKS". Perhaps, vandalism protection could be considered. KyuuA4 16:22, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

" The lack of Western-looking actors, for example, made it next to impossible to shoot films set in Europe, America, or fantasy worlds that do not naturally involve Japan. The varied use of animation allowed artists to create any characters and settings. Even today, anime continues to be only for a limited audience, namely, fags. [3]"

^that needs to change... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.164.123.163 (talk) 02:10, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Yet again the article has been vandalised. The section on anime directors has been partially deleted and a badly spelled comment added.

Things like that is happening at youtube I think odmachine is the ringleader

Revert any Vandalism. If anyone arrives to this article and notices some vandalism, just revert the article. Thanks. KyuuA4 07:52, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Well i have added a specific link named Anime-Realm [ http://www.anime-realm.net ] i thought this is a great resource of information on latest anime series that are coming to hit the stage and i added the link, posting here to get users authorization in doing so. — Preceding unsigned comment added by NinyaEvu (talk • contribs)


 * The link doesn't add anything to the article and is a violation of WP:C since the site allows people to illegally download copyrighted material. --Farix (Talk) 11:49, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree with the original comment by Pbk01, article should be protected because such vandalism will not stop over time.--FranzSS 03:29, 24 August 2007 (UTC)


 * For the moment, it's not been that big of a problem. However, it comes in waves. So when the next wave of vandalism hits, just go to WP:RFPP. --Farix (Talk) 18:15, 26 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Is it time to send this back to WP:RFPP for protection? --Farix (Talk) 11:26, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

3D anime
Post Pet Momobin is a 3D anime... I thought it might be worth a mention somewhere... But I'm not quite sure what to do with it.--Hitsuji Kinno 19:51, 6 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Maybe as an example of 3D anime. But right now, there isn't enough sourced information on 3D anime to right a section on it. --Farix (Talk) 21:46, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Wikipe-tan
Is the use of Wikipe-tan on the article a self-reference to Wikipedia? hateless 01:05, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Wikipe-tan has been the mascot for the Anime and Manga Wikiproject since June 2006. --Etatoby 10:28, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Realism
From the current article: ''«[Anime] is usually designed to look as realistic as possible. […] Anime fantasy creatures [may] have exaggerated facial and physical features, but they will always be designed to look as realistic as possible, and bright colours would be rarely used unless needed.»'' As realistic as possible? Bright colors rarely used? Gimme a break! What manner of vandalism/fanboyism is this? --Etatoby 10:36, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
 * There are some anime which that description does apply to. Ergo Proxy is a good example.  However, I agree that on the whole, the statement is very inaccurate. Xenofan 29A 03:51, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Evangelion Genre
I don't think that Neon Genesis Evangelion can be categorized as "shonen-ai," because a single relationship between two characters, one of whom is not human, is implied as amorous in a single episode of the series. It doesn't help classification at all. Xenofan 29A 03:51, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

HD Anime
It would be a good idea to add a section of HD anime releases so far, and the future of HD productions. Ergo Proxy is good example of a good HD anime in my opinion. --T0rek 09:23, 29 August 2007 (UTC)


 * It's really not that relevant or notable, unless you are talking about the first wave of anime that was broadcast in HD. --Farix (Talk) 12:00, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
 * We won't be able to fit that kind of a list here. So, a separate "List of" article can be used.  As far as notability, I don't see any relevance either. KyuuA4 21:04, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Collage of Anime Imagery
Good thing that the Bebop image was removed from the very top right of the article. Instead, it should be replaced by a collage of various images from anime - including 1 or 2 from randomly selected series, 1 fan art image, and one last example, perhaps a cosplay photo. KyuuA4 06:10, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I suspect that would run afoul of fair use guidelines. Fair use is unfortunately very restrictive a legal doctrine...
 * What we could do is have a section on general categories of anime styles, and have single screenshots of particular anime to illustrate; which would probably be defensible under WP's fair use guidelines - but it'd be hard to come up with descriptions and specific anime meeting them without wandering off into OR. --Gwern (contribs) 18:52 26 August 2007 (GMT)
 * I think this was already addressed above, but I don't think you can really cite any fair use rationales for using random anime series to identify anime as a whole. The image would have to be created by a Wikipedian, most likely.  Leebo  T / C  21:09, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
 * And then the debate would be if the anime image is created by a non-Japanese... if it's really anime. ^_^ It probably would be better to leave it wikilinked and use those to show the range of anime rather than say this makes all anime. It's like trying to define American literature by one book. If I remember right a collage has it's own copyright problems too... I doubt wikipedia would allow it as fair use..--Hitsuji Kinno —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.102.211.115 (talk) 19:31, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Anime Ambassador Program
This is just a footnote noted in this source. Program still non-existent, but worth noting later on. KyuuA4 01:22, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Frames per Second
Partly a curiousity. Anime is an animation. We all know that. However, how many frames per second do anime normally have, particularly newer series? In comparison, how about cartoons and/or Disney animation? KyuuA4 04:45, 3 September 2007 (UTC)


 * This is from the top of my head, unsourced, but I have it on faith from someone who has worked inthe animation industry for a few years. First of all all animation comes in threes, that means the frame rate will always be in multiples of Three (if I understood right). This creates a kind of inorganic/uniformity to the work. If you do it on 2's then it looks werid, as it does on eany other number...


 * Anime is limited animation though. This means it's the Trompe-l'œil of the animation business. A lot of animation heads see anime as kind of a black sheep that came from limited animation. Limited animation is often looked down upon because it has tight budgets and doesn't actually have as much "movement." So what anime does in frame count is limit the amount of threes it does. It has instead panning shots, recycled footage, and so on. This means for the "important" scenes the amount of frames will go up proportional to the amount of alloted budget.


 * So for example, Spirited Away, while limited animation still will have a higher frame count on *average* than say Dragon Ball Z. Also the longer a series is supposed to run or without a definite finish date the more limited the frame count will be. Thius in your example, the amount of frames really depends on hthe amount of budget for individual productions. If you want to see Limited Animation American-style (or roughly so) The 1970's Spider-man cartoon and UPA animations are classic examples of this.


 * Thus pegging a frame count highly depends on the amount of money given for any particular production--and this is true of American animation as well. (though on average the American studios seem to have 3 times the budget of Japanese ones, from what I gathered by the hanging mouths of the people from a Japanese studio talking to the aforementioned friend. They couldn't imagine having three crews, extra people, etc.)


 * I would say if you take non-limited animation and tallied all of the animation of a particular typical budget range with the typical budget range for Japanese animation, that by far the frame count for the american productions would be higher. However, on the limited animation American/Canadaian/Australian side I saw, the same budget given to a Japanese crew versus that of the equivalent in cost of living of the other counterparts, that I would say that Japanese would still produce a higher quality product, and maybe even get away with better frame management in some parts than it's Western equivalent. It's because anime has it's own tricks its developed over that of the Western Limited typical animation to make the eye think it's seeing tons of movement. I hope that makes some sense... In another words, it comes down to budget and expenses. --Hitsuji Kinno


 * Thanks. From this, I'll be digging along the lines of Limited animation then.  Sometimes, it is easy to forget the constraint of the budget, even if the statement "money makes the world go round" apply to anything and everything. However, I take interest in the techniques used by Japanese animators that are not used by Western counterparts.  KyuuA4 18:59, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Cut phrasing
"The anime drawing style can be learned, particularly with the aid of books such as How to Draw Manga. Such books come complete with information and instructions on the styles used in anime." I cut this from the article since it sounds like an advertisement. Like "You too can learn the power of a Hoover Vaccuum cleaner." being posted in the vacuum section. It shouldn't matter if one can or cannot learn the style, plus it *is* under debate to some effect as well. It doesn't really add anything in the way of information to the article too. It's like posting in an art section, You too can learn how to draw art by taking classes at X college. So it's also unnecessarily repetitive as well... --Hitsuji Kinno
 * Agreed. Having been engaged in the "What is anime" debate on/off for a good year now - I was prompted to add that text months ago.  Yet, this explanation of the un-necessity of such a statement is logical. KyuuA4 18:56, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Needs Editing
"Eventually, anime conventions are held annually in various cities across the United States, Canada, Asia, and Europe."

The "Eventually" throws off the sentence, but I'm not sure how to proceed to edit. Does it mean that after 1992, the Anime conventions began to be held internationally in such places as.... (plug in), or does it mean that they are held in X places. Also Asia and Europe are not countries... for the sake of parallelism, the sentence should be fixed. To me, it reads something like, white, green, squares and circles. So fix it...--Hitsuji Kinno 20:24, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Anime? Whose anime?
Anime styles and techniques vary considerably and have done so ever since Tezuka. No universal claims can be made for "anime" as a single, unitary art form that has one or only a few characteristics. That goes for every aspect of anime from the use of color (Mighty Atom was originally in black & white) through eye shape, body shape, depictions of heroes, women, girls, dragons, animals...

As it stands, this article strikes me as a mixture of casual observations about certain anime series, cliches, and some actual knowledge of the complexity of anime styles associated with different directors. As far as I can tell, no effort has been made to describe how the work of Miyazaki (say) differs from that of Oshii or Kon; how film anime (like Innosenzu) differs from television anime; and how animators achieve the effects they obtain (for example, the use of multiplanarity versus superflat).

So, **whose** anime are we talking about? When the article says that the girl in the illustrations is drawn in anime style, does that mean she appeared in "Grave of the Fireflies"?

This article needs some serious thought to prevent it from sinking into original research and just plain opinionated NON VERIFIABILITY. Can we do better than this?

Timothy Perper 20:37, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
 * This article is indeed about anime in general. Regarding styles, it does prove to be rather difficult "quantifying" it as a general art form.  Yet, it is clear that anime is distinct from other animation forms, from that of cartoons and Disney animation.  Therefore, the task of describing anime as an art form is doable - but not easy.  A description for the anime style requires breaking down various characteristics, particularly within the visuals.  As for individual styles, that should be best handled in individual articles, particularly Miyazaki whose style distinct compared to other anime counterparts.


 * Regardless, there exist some techniques towards the production of this visual style, namely in the form of tutorials. Information regarding (or from) anime studios themselves would be a great help as well.


 * The girl showed under Visual Styles is Wikipe-tan. If you notice, she's the mascot for the anime and manga project; and due to WP:SELF, she cannot be referenced, yet can still be used as an example.  She is designed under the style of anime, as opposed to the style of a cartoon.


 * More info on how animators achieve the effects they obtain would indeed be useful. Hitsuji Kinno gave a bit of a hint.


 * As for Verifiability, this article was in far worse shape 6 months ago. That can be taken care of with many Google searches and citing reference books. KyuuA4 19:49, 11 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I added some citations--however I couldn't add more to the article because while there is plenty of anime and "anime books" no one from the animation industry in the US has done an extensive study of anime as an art form. There are only pieces here and there. What we would need is a professional US animator to write a book on anime.


 * Despite this, anime does have marks that make it anime, in small things that most people don't think about. There are conventions of anime, used in what animators call cheats and how they utilize those cheats, that make it different from other types of animation. Because there are unique cheats to anime, that the US does not employ when making it "anime style" this makes the sensibility between anime and American animation very different. (I didn't spend all this time studying it for nothing.) There are many cheats that American animators would call unacceptable. One animation student told me if she did half the things anime did she would have failed class. Some of these include panning shots. (This is basically taking the same *large* background and moving it across the screen. This means no new drawings...it's the same drawing.) back of head talking shots (you can see this in Evagelion, apparently--this was a gripe I saw..) The three mouth positions of anime. Closed, a little open and wider. This is generally frown upon in the American animation. (But this has to do with each country's dubbing system... I can get to this later.) Japanese also like to manage their budgets towards complex backgrounds, and season changes. (I think Trish Ledoux said it... and also Gilles Poitres(sp?)?) This is illustrated by mainly shoujo Anime. Lovely Complex right now is a good example of this. The animation is limited, but most of the budget seems to be going into showing complex backgrounds. Other cheats, are holding a shot for a long time. Like a mouth gaping... The lack of movement in American animation is thought to lose the viewer's interest. the SD figures, and frame repetition in Japanese animation can be done to ad nauseum. Many comedic effects are done by repeating the same three frames 3-4 times. Sometimes the recycling is blatantly obvious. While American animation does this, it doesn't do this in such an obvious fashion. Americans are more likely to recycle props for other productions. And Manhwa-yeonghwa is also showing its differences too. You may not think it, but half of animation (since it's so damned expensive with very little wiggle room to change things) is money management and budget. How each production spends its money really makes a different product and since each culture has different sensibilities on what the money should and should not be spent on this makes a load of difference. Also how its produced, as in order of production and staff size, etc... which brings me to VA versus Seiyuu.


 * American animation has people phone in their voices sometimes. People can be in a separate booth, come in at separate times, and it's done *before* the drawings are done. This means lip syncing is done post. ( can see traces of this from an old TV guide on the Simpsons). This means that the voice actors are allowed to play in the studio, adjust the script, etc. The control goes away from the storyboarders and the original intent. You can shift around a whole scene in this fashion. That means the voicing can effect the pictures--there are smaller influences from this, but the person I knew from the industry noted small changes here and there done to animation because of the voicing. Now Japanese voicing is done the *other* way. That is voicing is done *post* (Han Keiko made reference to this and you can see it in Animation Runner Kurumi.). There is a person on the staff that counts the mouth positions and is responsible for it, puts it into the animation, and then the voice actors have to make t match. (this is often why it doesn't always sync.) And most of all, all voicings *must* be done together. That means the voice actors play off against each other, and are encouraged to do so. Most voices from Japan can't imagine doing it without their boothmates. Han Keiko said it was lonely voicing Luna for PGSM without the other people with her and it was in fact harder to do so. Japanese view the advantage of this system as that the control stays with the animators, and also being together means that the level of emotion can be more "real". Ogata Megumi while doing voices for, I think Evangelion was said to be too intense sometimes that the other voice actor was afraid, but then that seiyuu said because Ogata-san was there, it added to the performance. (Ogata Megumi tends to get umm... physical sometimes...) Also Japanese VAs sometimes act it out in the booth. American counterparts can, but usually not together...


 * That's pretty much a quick run down. It's not to say all anime use these techniques, it's to say they are there at their disposal in such a way American animation would view it as "crude". But as I said it's all in the budget and management thereof.--Hitsuji Kinno 17:15, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Wow, this is a good read. By any chance, do you happen to know if the French are (or starting to) employ some of the techniques of Japanese animators?
 * As far as "quantifying" the anime style, yes, it's best to view from a "not all" construct with a focus on the most common traits and techniques. It's mathematically impossible as there will always be exceptions; and the styles naturally evolve. This is art, after all. Since there are no publications by professional US animators regarding anime as an art form, then it is best to simply work with what is available.
 * I just realized this article has absolutely nothing on voice-acting. KyuuA4 18:01, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Anime History
Should there be expansion of Anime History? While it has its own separate article, it looks a bit short. Can't think of it now, but that summary is certainly lacking something. KyuuA4 19:53, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
 * A brief overview wouldn't hurt--like a launcher that links to the other article.--Hitsuji Kinno 16:46, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Etymology and pronunciation
Can someone fix this section please? For example I don't see how ja:animēshon can be borrowed from fr:l'animé ? Kappa 17:32, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, it's referenced; but I do not have access to that book. Here is the etymology to "animation". KyuuA4 03:22, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Coining Anime
I have to wonder. When did the term "anime" first coined? Unlike "manga", "anime" is a recently borrowed word. KyuuA4 03:23, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Anime Etymology KyuuA4 03:37, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

From Visual Characteristics
Taken from Visual Characteristics. Written by MightyOtaKing. Paragraph needs clean up. Run-ons. Unsourced. Can be sub-divided. Too many specific examples. KyuuA4 03:30, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

"Classic" and "Modern" anime art styles
One topic of heated debate is that of the drastic change in anime artwork between the 1980s and the present day. Though styles vary depending upon character designer, budgetary constraints and theme of the series/movie/OVA, the basic observation is that "classic" anime artwork (particularly during Japan's economic boom years in the 1980s) is hand-drawn, animated and painted on physical sheets of transparent acetate called cels, utilises relatively no computer graphics, and is highly detailed and shaded (with viewing of any 1980's to mid 1990's anime immediately showing a minimum of two to three tones of shading and colour). "Modern" anime artwork, on the other hand, is fully digital, much more "anethetised" in look (the variable line width of classic anime line art, attained through physically drawing the lines with black marker and varying pressure, is lacking from modern anime), and far less detailed in terms of line count. Far greater use of motion capture is used for key scenes, whereas "classic" anime such as Akira and Dragonball Z were animated via imagination. The colours in modern shows are noticably more muted and grey in comparison to the colourful 1980s and 90's shows, and the shading is often almost entirely nonexistent(as can be seen with the 2006 movie The Girl Who Leapt Through Time, Naruto and One Piece). Whereas fans of modern anime state this as looking more realistic, fans of the highly detailed classic style believe it to look washed-out, flat and hastily drawn, due to lower budgets than the economic boom-driven 1980s, and automated PC-aided shading routines. Firsthand comparisons of the drastic change in detail and colour of anime are readily available by watching old and new versions of the same shows. For example, The Guyver (1989) followed by the 2005 Guyver, Sol Bianca (1990) followed by the 1999 Sol Bianca - The Legacy, and Aim For The Top - Gunbuster (1988) and the sequel Diebuster, from 2006. The difference in colour and detail is immediately apparent.


 * Modern is usually considered in the art and literature fields to be about 1850-1950. In addition, I find the listing arbitrary, since there still is anime like Mariko-chan. And also anime like Lovely Complex, while it uses computers, it still uses the "90's" line values. In addition art is always in flux and in change. Arguing time periods of change and eras is like asking an Art Historian when the Renaissance *exactly* ended and started in terms of art. In another words, I find it too subjective to add to an article. One can argue for budgetary changes and advent of computer technology changing anime, however unlike many Western animation in the same area, the shift in Japanese animation hasn't been as drastic as you are arguing. i.e. there is not enough of a shift in the media and media expectations to say there was a shift in era. *and* we need serious sourcing from someone like someone in the industry, or someone who wrote a thesis on art changes to be able to add it. I say cut this until we get sources. Actually I think it's more important to fix shady and slightly ethnocentric sentences and add the missing sources than it is to add more to the article. If we want GA, that should be our focus now, not new content. And shouldn't WAM be a little ashamed that this article isn't GA status whereas others under its care are... I still find it strange. (Manga too)--Hitsuji Kinno 20:34, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
 * It's possible to by-pass any sort of ethnocentrism by looking at "technical" aspects. Of course, that's easier said than done.  If one were - to say - program face recognition software to determine the various types of animation art and its periods of evolutionary development, that would very very difficult task.  Best anyone can really hope for is a rough approximation.  Of course, some won't accept that either. KyuuA4 02:27, 15 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't really agree with cutting my section, to be honest. For one thing, the section following it, which gives broad and sweeping generalisations about the exact head heights and proportions seen in anime art, is infinitely more unresearched and subjective. In fact, much of it is just plain wrong. The anime entry on Wiki says much, but completely misses out what a great many people see as an essential topic: the complete and utter change in anime art from the 1980s period to the "modern." If you have issues with labels such as "modern" and "classic," then instead of cutting a much-needed entry, I say just change "modern" to "post digital (1999)" and "classic" to "early 1980s - 1999." I mean, we can argue specifics and art history until the cows come home, but the fact is that anime doesn't look anything like it used to, and I feel this needs to be mentioned. And I feel I have indeed listed the ways in which it has drastically changed. True, my Masters Degree is in Japanese-English anime translation and localisation, not anime art, but as an artist who has researched anime line widths, shading techniques and character designs, as well as producing tutorials on the esscence of 1980s anime artwork in comparison to today, I believe the evidence of ones' eyes is sufficient to say "recent anime such as The Girl Who Leapt Through Time and One Piece have almost no shading whatsoever." Nobody who has seen that film, or One Piece, can't disagree, surely? Saying "representative anime TV series of the 1980s, such as Hokuto no Ken, display more detailed linework and more intricate shading routines than representative OVAs of recent times, such as FLCL" is merely stating a truth which any reader can empirically validate by watching any of the said shows and counting the tones of shading themselves, and if the written, authorised opinion of an art history professor is required to back the entry up, then why is it not required to back up other, more sweeping claims in the "anime" article? Claims such as "With regard to the limbs, both the arms and legs have their joints, the elbows and knees respectively, at the midpoint of their total lengths" and "the main frame of reference were American cartoons, particularly Disney."MightyOtaKing 06:03, 17 September 2007 (GMT)
 * Then cough up sources with your information. Besides it's not about *you* once you post it becomes a creative commons... My complaint is 1. It's subjective 2. There are no sources. Even so, the height comments can be *also* cut. Anime as I see it is more in the production and technicalities and budget constraints and how that effects the overall art rather than visual effects like eyes, height, chibi characters, etc. You can't make general statements on wikipedia without solid backing, and on wikipedia books are preferred. What I'm asking is for you to 1. Hold off on it. 2. Come up with reasonable sources for your statements. 3. Improve the *rest* of the article so it's GA status, *then* slowly add new stuff. Isn't it a big slap that this article still is not GA status? There is a whole project dedicated to Anime and Manga, and neither of the two articles are even close to FA status! What is that? O.o;; So My request is on timing and sourcing. Get your sources together. Post it on your profile, work on it, then post it when the time is right. I've done this with a number of articles, such as the Naoko Takeuchi article, which to date is only missing 2 sources to try to make it GA status. In another words shut me up with sources, and enough to make anyone's head spin. And no, you do not count as your own source... which is why I didn't post stuff up about the industry in the article--I have no published sources on that, only first hand experience of it. Make sense? I didn't say you were wrong, I said the timing of it is wrong, and you have nothing to back yourself up with. Citation, citation. If we want GA, then citation is the way to go.--Hitsuji Kinno 20:28, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Aside from Kinno's comments I believe the "The representative styles" image for this section should also be removed or redone.  The "classic" and "modern" categories and years are arbitrarily assigned and the sample images are a poor representation of the full gamut of visual styles anyway. --dmkrantz 17:31 18 January 2008 (CST)

Bad sentence
"Anime-influenced animation refers to non-Japanese works of animation that emulate the visual style of anime.[38] Though most of these works are created by studios in the United States, Europe, and non-Japanese Asia." This should be distinguished from manhwa yeoghwa... influenced, I would say is something like some parts are stolen. On an already existing media. Whereas Manhwa Yeonghwa is a new media form with its own conventions and budgetary demands that are different from anime. I'm sure most people would be bored with me listing them. I'm not sure how to fix this one though... ideas are appreciated. I guess one could say this is like the argument between language word borrowing and it being a creole.

Even with that when was the United States a continent...? (Parallelism and a slight trace of ethnocentricism is in that...) I think it should be North America since canda does animation too, often in tadem with the United States. (Many cheap voicing companies are there anyhow).--Hitsuji Kinno 20:34, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
 * How about; United States, France, and South Korea. The difficulty with cultural influences is tracing origins.  As for Manhwa Yonghwa, it seems that's been discussed before. Ironically, it's labeled as Korean animation, instead of Manhwa Yeonghwa. Otherwise, then limit the regions to United States and France. If Canada produced anything that remotely resembles anime, then perhaps. KyuuA4 02:03, 15 September 2007 (UTC)


 * United States and France it is, and then if there are additional *countries* that have established media that borrows, then we can take it up and put it in.--Hitsuji Kinno 20:31, 20 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Apparently we can ignore the fact that the entire Japanese animation industry jump started by ripping-off Disney. A careful cross-examination of animation on both sides reveals the fact. It wasn't even until Akira rolled around that the industry stood on its own feet. The article probably shouldn't make reference to "anime-influenced" animation at all, since such statements are illogical given the ways in which all entertainment industries are influenced by one another.  If you want to isolate "anime" as a style of animation/drawing, that would be more ideal.  That would also allow so called "anime-inspired" films to have a brief mention in terms of the art-form.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.9.20.94 (talk) 23:58, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Etymology (again)
Originally I cited Fredrick Schodt who said that anime came from the french "l'anime" and this got cut. While the Etymology citation says it started in 1970, it does not state it is "a shortened version of "animation" In fact if the Japanese *were* to shorten animation, the most logical jump would be "anima" *not* anime. What did happen was there was a French film influence on animation, such as Beauty and the Beast and other French films (and not the Disney animation.... the old Black and White film). You can also see this in Rose of Versailles that French culture had an impact. Meaning that *both* English and the french words are being borrowed. Other french words at are borrowed are "pan" such as "kure- Pan" Pan is a borrowing of the french word "le pain" meaning bread. Not everything Japanese borrowed is American-based--That's far too ethnocentric of us to even think. Rather Japanese like to borrow from three to four major outside languages, this is English, Portuguese, French and German. Which are major film influences (minus the portuguese they were the first outside contact that the French had with the Western World... so that's how that linguistic influence came about.) on the French. Citation would be Fredrick Schodt and quotes for Osamu Tezuka himself. You can see current influences on Anime as in Snow Fairy Sugar for German, or even Rozen Maiden. For French need I cite Card Captor Sakura? Why did the citation get cut? Does linguistics have to be rational? It was in the book... So I'd like to discuss this before I add the French reference back in. It is *indeed* from the french, "l'anime" and there *is* both used, but they *don't* have to have the same linguistic roots, such as we use "Abode" and "house" to mean the same thing, doesn't mean they *must come from the same linguistic root* Many english words that sound the same or similar have roots that are dissimilar. --;;

Anyway I'm pointing out that "anime" has *no* support in the linguistic community or that of anime scholars to say it was a strictly English word. I would say that the adaptation of "animation" and "anime" into the Japanese language are independant of each other and not one a shortening of the other. The additional support pulled is fine as is. Objections? Anyone not understand the fundamentals of linguistics where you can borrow two words that mean the same thing from different languages? And even words that sound similar and have similar meanings, but don't have the same etymological roots? Yes, I'm pulling out my linguistic skills... --Hitsuji Kinno 21:16, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Yea. Linguistics has been very very tricky.  Ambiguity has been quite the problem as far as the English language is concerned.  As far as "animation" is concerned, it is clearly Latin based. Now, whether the French or the English adapted the Latin term first.  That will probably up to debate for a long time.  In any case, both the French and Americans have some notable animation backgrounds.  There is a clear-cut Franco-Japanese connection, as demonstrated by La nouvelle manga.  According to Etymology dictionary, the English term animation is the root for anime.   Though, a second opinion on that matter may be needed as well.


 * Other things to look at, when was "anime" first coined? I've managed to read sources indicating within the 1970's. KyuuA4 23:20, 20 September 2007 (UTC)


 * The Etymology dictionary doesn't seem sure about it though, since it said something on the order of "Appears to be" rather than it is... what we really need is an OED to research and clear it up. Anyone have a full modern Oxford English dictionary with the proper definition and etymology? That, or we need a primary source like an etymology dictionary translated from the Japanese. In any case, since Fredrick Schodt seems 100% sure when he wrote Manga! Manga! over the Etymology dictionary, I'd think he'd be the better source. I can pull the quote if necessary. Let's do some sleuthing and fix that section in such a way that it's 1. understandable and 2. well sourced. (like we were writing a graduate thesis on just the etymology of said word. <-- joke.) In another words we need better sources that actually trace the use of said word, etc. And trace it in the Japanese language rather than the English language. 'cause I believe that's the current issue, is it not? --Hitsuji Kinno 00:17, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Getting to FA status
I don't know.. I find it weird/embarassing that this article isn't GA status at least... a whole project dedicated to the body of it and this article and manga can't make it? What is that?

My list so far includes:
 * 1) More sources This should be top priority. It's often the difference between a B and a GA. Also FA.
 * 2) Making the article less United States-based. Add in French and German film, and references to Terazuka theater. As much as people of the US would like to believe it, we are not the center of the world. More global.
 * 3) Make a list for attaining FA status.
 * 4) coordinate this effort.
 * 5) Cleaning up the wording... basic grammar scan. It's horrid... it has lists, it's unorganized at times. We need to figure out things like order in which things should and should not go and get rid of those lists. Lists are generally frowned upon in wikipedia.

Things to add later:
 * 1) More sources.
 * 2) Industry practices and standards with citations. (in contrast to Western philosophies thereof)
 * 3) Definite *consistent* stylistic differences between Japanese and the rest of animation.  (in the Limited Animation category). That does *not* mean large eyes, since I can cite Miyazaki right away. Heights, etc. It means something *inherent* to anime that's consistently throughout anime that cannot be found elsewhere. Then differentiate between that and say a toolkit. Things that *could* but not always be found in anime.
 * 4) Detailed influences on anime. Like what did the Japanese take from French film? What is shown in Terazuka that can be found in Japanese animation?
 * 5) Stylistic changes in contrast to other animation. This is in movement, style, etc.
 * 6) Direct Computer Influence on anime. Such as the advant of three-dimensional anime, the use, philosophy and blending of traditional and computer animation.
 * 7) More sources.

Did I forget more sources?

Anyway, more suggestions? I'd list to make this as a list on the top. The more united we are about the direction of the article and where it should go the faster it gets to GA status.--Hitsuji Kinno 21:15, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Indeed, it was rather shameful of the poor shape this article had been. But it's improving.  Simultaneously, the manga article is getting a revamp as well. KyuuA4 23:11, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
 * By the way, this is a very good guideline. So, I'll keep it in mind and pass it over to the anime project. KyuuA4 23:01, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Non-Cited Material
Here is a list of previous book sources. If possible, these can be reintegrated back into the article as citations - directly embedded in the text. KyuuA4 23:10, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Restored Sections
Restored sections: Genre, Distribution, and Influence on Western Culture. If these sections were meant to be removed, request notification of reasons. If they were meant to be removed, then they'll be moved here into a dicussion thread. KyuuA4 23:31, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Influence on Western culture
Can change that section to reflect an even less ethnocentric view. Even South Africa is beginning to receive more anime. May want to check out anime influence on the Middle East as well. KyuuA4 23:57, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Add a few sources with the info and post that sucker.--Hitsuji Kinno 00:17, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

But there is also an anime named Blade Worriors it is by Valerie and Amanda,the main characters names are Akane,Kohaku,and Kairi see anime comeing out on 9/15/09 thank you for your search. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.142.131.195 (talk) 15:34, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Political correctness about whiteness of Anime/Manga characters
I've seen that there has been quite changes in the section about the look of anime characters but I've noticed everyone editing that section avoids any reference to the whiteness/caucasianness of anime characters.

There's only one reference to 'foreign look' related to an article written by Matt Thorn but his position only represents his POV . There is evidence on the whiteness, or more specifically, on the 'Americanness' of Anime/Manga characters and this evidence has been reported by multitude of Manga/Anime fans and it has been cited on several websites  .

Comparing these images makes it clear this view:    

In the first image, appears Nakago, antagonist character in Fushigi Yuugi, he has Japanese name and he's supposedly of Japanese nationality but he has an strikingly pale complexion and blond hair. In the second image, appears Colonel Roy Mustang from Fullmetal Alchemist, he has a non-Japanese name (specifically, an Anglo name) and he's not supposedly of Japanese nationality, and although he also has pale complexion, he has dark hair.

In the third and fourth images, the depicted characters shown a very rare look in Manga/Anime, they look more or less like Japanese people

Therefore, I think the section about Anime visual characteristics should cite, at least, the two views: the one about the perception of Anime characters as not foreign, and the one regarding the predominant depiction of Anime characters with white/caucasian features. Felve 02:13, 30 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Personally, I think it's less about being "American" or white and more about illustrating characters that stand out more. It is true that most Japanese have the same color of hair, but most people anywhere in the world don't have pink, green, or blue hair. As for the color of the skin, it really depends on perspective of the color pallet. Just look at Windy Tales, where the characters are very much asian, but have "white" skin. Some animes, like School Rumble, explain their blond-haired characters to be half-Japanese and half something else. I don't doubt that there is some influence, but at the same time I think maybe much of it is just in our heads. -- Ned Scott 02:49, 30 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Anime is singular and plural, BTW. And Fredrick Schodt covered this in Manga! Manga! I would trust that source over the American perceptions of the characters. Avoid fan opinions and go for the professionals in the field. That's what I would say. If you look up his section where he mentions Rose of Versailles, he gives a more plausible explanation rather than the Japanese copy everything American and want it to look American, which is again, ethnocentric. Avoid such assumptions... O.o;; It's also covered by Gilles Portraies to some extent in the Anime Companion. He says the people with strange hair, etc tend *not* to be Japanese. Shampoo, for example. Macross had a few people too. But again, the article needs basic cleaning. Can we concentrate on that *before* adding new sections? Or we'll never get GA. --Hitsuji Kinno 01:59, 1 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Thank you for your reply Hitsuji Kinno, but I think 'the professionals in the field' from USA and North America really have nothing to say. Even, Kenji Sato, a Japanese film critic admits with a nationalistic tone that Anime characters 'are "de-Japanized Japanese", a blend of Japanese and Caucasian characteristics'. The fact is that there is no consensus among Anime scholars about this question and, in this context, the 'fan' opinion is important. Saying it's ethnocentric the fact that Japanese try to copy things from America is sophistic and showing some denial of reality (by the way, a I'am not from America) since Japanese people have always had a big struggle between isolation from abroad/conservation of their culture and foreign heavy influence.
 * In short, there's a widespread denial and PC-ness about this reality of manga and anime and scholars don't avoid this denial and PC-ness. Felve 11:24, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I remember reading a few articles written in the late 1990's regarding this topic. Sorry to say, I neither cannot recall nor expect to find these articles in today's Internet.  However, the "Caucasian" look of characters is comparable to pre-Meiji era Japanese art. If some material based on this topic can be found, that would be great. KyuuA4 17:27, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Could use a "Controversy" section.
Thats what I came here looking for. And I think that RATHER THAN USE THINGS SAID IN FORUM POSTS AND FLAMES across the internet, someone should compare the teaching of the Catholic Church on pornography, sexuality, and violence (in films) to the vast majority of titles in this genre. And someone else should look up two or three specific titles and find out exactly WHAT kind of things were edited out/changed to being it to america and determine their quantity and total approximate durations, just so that we can get an idea. What kinds of controvertable things are left in these movies and how much of it? I would do this myself, except I'm currently working on another essay.

Another important title to add would be "Psychological impact of prolonged exposure to anime". And I'm not joking. These people behave differently for a reason. It would be really neat to find out why and to determine whether this is conducive to the good of the individual. TechsysPete 15:56, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
 * A word of warning. You are going to need to find verfiable sources that cover the points that you want to add or the additions will quickly be removed as original research. --65.95.16.35 22:07, 8 October 2007 (UTC)


 * There is no need for a controversy section in this article for much the same reasons there are no controversy sections in film, novel, or comic. The topic is just too general and any controversy that exists is with specific anime titles and should be covered by articles on those titles instead. --Farix (Talk) 00:06, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Furthermore, we can say the same exact thing for the Internet, as internet behavior often creates alternate personalities, net addiction, etc. Seeing the term Catholic Church, perhaps the topic should be over there.  I'm willing to attest the "controversial" nature of anime exists only because it is a non-American product.  Such a topic is not necessary.  In any case, this article is about anime as a medium. KyuuA4 03:08, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Shonen Ai and Yaoi
I'm not sure what the proper way to do this is, but can we get a vote or something on the way to put Yaoi and Shonen Ai in the genres section. They are two distinct genres, and yet they keep getting combined. It's like saying Queer as Folk is porn, or like saying Barebacking Across America is a teen sex comedy. Gravitation is Shonen Ai, Sensitive Pornograph is Yaoi. Gravitation is NOT Yaoi. Everytime I check back here, someone has combined the sections. Djfinn 17:30, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Might as well do the same for Shoujo ai and Yuri - for the sake of parallelism and consistency.  Split or combine.  Can go either way, however, it has to apply to both. While your reasoning cites the differentiation in sexual content, that's pretty much moot -- as both cover the same basic idea.  Homosexual relationships. KyuuA4 20:37, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Genre List
Should that be moved into its own listing article to clean up the Genre section? KyuuA4 17:52, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Link requests
I would like to request that a link to AnimeHQ.eu is added under the External Links section of the Anime article. Although there isn't much on the site at the moment, and it's still under active development, I see big things for this site, and it would be nice if you would consider it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gizmoguy (talk • contribs) 08:53, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Sorry, no can do. We don't use the EL section to promote sites like that. See WP:EL. Good luck with your efforts, though. -- Ned Scott 09:48, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Anime as manga
With reference to the recent citation request, I have no citation handy but can attest to the fact that anime has been called "manga" in the UK - in particular high street stores like HMV and MVC have been guilty of this (although I'm pretty sure my local HMV has corrected this now and there is no local MVC any more) and is probably due, as mentioned in this article, to the early prominence of the company Manga Entertainment in the UK anime market. Shiroi Hane 01:32, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Hmm. I cannot attest to that either.  Never seen the two terms used interchangeably. KyuuA4 19:43, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Reduction of "See also"
Some items linked in there seem "un-necessary", as in some items can simply be found under Anime_and_manga_terminology. Topics in relation such as animation can remain, or integral topics like Seiyū. Same goes for websites like ANN. Note, this is just a recommendation. KyuuA4 19:41, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Pokémon is not Kodomo
Poketto Monsuta (As the real name of the anime is) doesn´t count to the Kodomo-genre. It´s clearly defined at shonen. It may seem Kodomo, if you watch the dub, but isn´t if you watch the original. and since this is about japan and not what amerika tends to do with japan things, it would be a LOT better, if you would list "Puca", a REAL Kodomo-anime as second example for this genre. Nenilein 12:24, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Not even listed as a category within the infobox of Pokémon (anime). KyuuA4 18:39, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Genre List = Eyesore
To keep or not to keep. The genre list in this article is somewhat starting to look like an eyesore. KyuuA4 18:42, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I think that it provides too much information to just dump. How about splitting it into it's own article or putting it as the lead on an anime category page? --Squilibob 10:40, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

I read about the HD anime but this is different....
I want to know what format is anime, like directly to TV? or like directly to film and then pulled-down? and if there's any differences in them

also is there a way to know what format was used and when they were beginning to switch to HDTV?... cuz I read some info on One Piece, and that's the only article that mentions something like that

or if anime suffered from pan-and-scan or something like that...

that would be something really nice to read 189.129.85.87 (talk) 10:03, 26 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Until recently, most shows were made in 4*3 ratio or 480i (NTSC-J), but many shows are now made with 16*9 ratio or 1080i and resized as necessary.--Revth (talk) 09:23, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Animation Technique section lacking
In terms of ways to improve this entry, one of the things which I think would make the most sense would be dramatically improving the section discussing technique for anime films. Anime is unique from, say, Disney films in that no single 'supervising character animator' or team of 'character animators' draws exclusively a single character or group of characters in the film. A typical Disney film has a small group of supervising animators, each of whom takes on a character who they will primarily animate through the picture (someone like Andreas Deja, for example, who animated King Triton in The Little Mermaid). There is no equivilent in the vast majority (99%) of all Japanese animation, and no production has been organized along these lines in over 10 years. Instead, the breaking up of animation work is organized along the 'cut system,' or in other words, shot by shot. No single animator (or team of animators) draws a single character exclusively. Instead, they draw everything on their layer of animation (each layer will have the character/characters, mechanical devices, special effects, and so on) for the entire cut (versus a Disney-style production, where the animator will only draw the effects, the character assigned to them, or some other element of the shot).

The end result of all this is that, while American Disney-style animation is thought of as being character-driven, Japanese animation is thought of as being something else. Some say it is a lesser form of animation (these are usually the people who mention its limitted frame rates and lack of personality), while others contend that having less of a strong individual stamp on each character's movements creates greater emphasis on the story. Still others say that the emphasis is placed on particular shots and scenes. However, the one thing that is certain is that some, if not all, of this needs to be included in the anime section (say, under an expanded critical response section). Furthermore, the breakdown of differences between the Japanese style of animation and the more commonly known American style for feature films have to be recognised, as they are important in the overall visual distinction of anime. There are also many other differences which I have not gone into here (the role of the animation director, the lack of distinction between effects animators and regular animators, the combination of in-betweening and clean-up) that should idealy be addressed. I hope that some improvement in this area of the article can be made, and I will look into trying to find some sources which would be suitable for Wikipedia (as most of my direct knowledge comes from people in the industry, and from original research). If an effort was made to improve these elements of the article, I think the overall quality would be substantially increased.

LainEverliving LainEverloving 03:16, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I believe I posted something like that a few months ago. The problem though is getting sources. There aren't many people who want to make a life of cultural study of anime. C'mon... you could be the only animeologist... therefore not much has been written on the subject in an academic setting. This makes it really hard to cite technical things like limited frame rates, cheats, etc. --Hitsuji Kinno (talk) 23:30, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Anime Production and as a Business
What about how animes are made and how do they profit from it? Kamuixtv (talk) 09:03, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Well I'd say that belongs in it's own topic, or a drastically reduced sub-section on the page. Anime was originally made like any traditional animation, for example               Disney cartoons/films, but recently it's been moved to suit the digital age. I'm not an expert on the whole concept, but it'd be good to find out at least and see if it would fit somewhere here.--Opacic (talk) 03:02, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Once enough of that material gets here, then yes - it may warrant its own article. However, that is obviously not needed at this point.  Yet, whatever y'can do on the subject - that'll be great. KyuuA4 (talk) 08:48, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Eye size in proportion to age/maturity
I've noticed that large eyes seem to be a way of denoting immaturity or youthfulness. You can have a young character and an old character on the same show, the young one with Powerpuff eyes and the older with Bebop eyes... if you know what I mean. Examples shouldn't be hard to find. One easily-recognizable one is Fullmetal Alchemist, where older characters like Roy Mustang have normal-proportioned eyes, and Edward Elric has larger eyes. Didn't notice this mentioned anywhere on the page, maybe it should be added? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.10.140.192 (talk) 21:52, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
 * While this is true, it really depends on the individual anime/manga... and should be pointed out. It also begs the question about how many individual stylistic things we should point out compared to general things.--Hitsuji Kinno (talk) 23:33, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

I've read somewhere that Japanese animator draw their cartoon with large eyes beacuase it shows more emotions than ordinary size eyes. And according to the article they tried to draw a character w/ normal eye size but they are not satisfied with the emotions they are seeing, so they stick w/ the characters w/ big eyes until now.Reinbowe (talk) 08:28, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Usage in the UK -- unreferencable, but true.
I added the following in the other day: DVD outlets in the UK are increasingly categorising animated material aimed at an older market as anime, regardless of style or country of origin., giving examples.

Now, this was "original research" -- I've personally seen these titles in the anime section of UK chain shops Virgin Megastores and HMV -- so it got tagged "citation needed". Fair enough.

So I tried to find proof of my claim. I doubt there is any published research into how HMV and Virgin shelf their cartoons, so I thought I'd put a link to one of their websites where the DVD is clearly categorised as "anime" at the top of the page.

This has been reverted stating Sales pages aren't references. While this is true in general, I would say in this instance it is a perfectly valid primary reference as my note was on the usage of the term anime by these shops.

Otherwise the entry on anime has to be left out-of-date, because we are forced to exclude verifiably true information on grounds of a technicality. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Prof Wrong (talk • contribs) 17:46, 27 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Hmm. Try taking a picture of the display.  I can see that method as a

way to bypass the need for a citation -- probably. KyuuA4 (talk) 01:33, 11 February 2008 (UTC)


 * That'd be less reliable, though, as anyone can shift a couple of DVDs in a shop then take a picture. I can't alter the websites of major UK retailers, so a quick check shows I'm telling the truth more than any picture could.


 * I accept sales blurb is no good for technical or specialist content, but this isn't about anything more technical than "shops (like this one) use words this way." The only likely source for this, other than the shops themselves, is a new edition of a dictionary or encyclopedia, and if Wikipedia has to rely on other references works as its prime source, what's the point in Wikipedia?


 * Prof Wrong (talk) 13:14, 11 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Harumph. Just yesterday I saw the latest batch of Marvel DVDs (Iron Man et al) in the Anime rack at one of the afforementioned retailers. But I still can't cite anything -- it's still only "original research". Prof Wrong (talk) 13:52, 7 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Ah stuff it. I'm putting it back in. Really, seriously, the NOR rule says no original research unless the conclusion is totally and utterly obvious. Yes, this is original research, but it is also completely and utterly obvious. You walk into a shop, you see it. It's true; it's obvious; it's not a breach of the NOR rule. Prof Wrong (talk) 17:23, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
 * And I'm taking it out. "Increasingly"? According to whom. Your personal observation is the very definition of original research. --jpgordon&#8711;&#8710;&#8711;&#8710; 17:31, 1 June 2008 (UTC)


 * And if doesn't, I will. Its pure WP:OR. -- AnmaFinotera  (talk · contribs) 17:36, 1 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Not only does it violate the policy on no original research for the above stated reasons, it also violates the policies on neutral point of view—because you are inserting your own opinion into the article—and verifiability—because the information you've attempted to insert has been unchanged and no published reliable source has been presented. All three of these policies are the foundation for including any thing into a Wikipedia article. Text that violates any one one of these policies is bad enough, but text that violate all three is entirely unacceptable. --Farix (Talk) 18:18, 1 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't think neutral point of view has anything to do with it, there is no sort of bias in that argument. Having the opinion that one thing is a fact is different than having an opinion on the subject of the article. If I mistakenly think the latest Nike shoes only come in red, that's not a violation of NPOV, I'm simply wrong (of course probably violating verifiability). If I think they SHOULD only come in red, then that is against the policy. The other two probably apply. Kopf1988 (talk) 19:37, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Anime is only feature films? What?
The following line appears in the article:

"In English-speaking anime fandom, it is generally accepted that an animated production can only be known as 'anime' if it is an animated (normally 2D), professionally produced, feature film (though not necessarily a 'movie') created by a Japanese company for the Japanese market."

This is a really bad definition as it excludes all OVAs and TV anime series. The reference for this claim is only defining what AniDB uses to define "anime" for inclusion in their database, not defining "anime" in general. This needs to be reworked as OVAs and TV anime far outnumber feature film anime releases. ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjoe 19:41, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree that it should be removed. I have not read anything from that source to support the claim that this is generally accepted. I am not an expert by any means but I would find it extremly unlikely that the majority of people in the fandom would blieve that TV series like Naruto, Inuyasha, Death Note, etc are not anime. I doesn't make sense. --76.66.191.240 (talk) 04:19, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Coincidence?
"Coincidentally, as the popularity of the Internet grew, so did for anime."

I don't really think it was a coincidence. Is this based on anything or did the person not know what "coincidentally" means? 38.98.223.57 (talk) 13:46, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Sub Genres
The section on thematics incorrectly labels Mobile suit gundam as a super robot anime, when it is in fact the first if the "real-Robot" anime. Its something of a pet hate of mine. I would have corected myself if I could. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.61.159.26 (talk) 07:14, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I added Real Robots to the sentence. I think it's better now.  Enviroboy TalkCs 16:10, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Example of Bishōnen anime
I feel that Princess Princess would be a better example of a Bishōnen anime than CLAMP because as the article states "most CLAMP shows". I can assure you that every Princess Princess show is pure Bishōnen. The show itself is about three boys who are so pretty that they are gawked at in an all guy school as a substitute for girls. Thus I feel Princess Princess would be a better example and be a higher quality specimen Bishōnen show that would more throughly express this anime thematic. I'm new at this so ya help me here If I am doing this talk thing wrong. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Halofan101 (talk • contribs) 03:36, 18 March 2008 (UTC)


 * "most CLAMP shows" is rather vague, considering that this should be a NPOV encyclopedia, and if I were a reader who didn't know jack about Anime, I wouldn't know what the hell CLAMP is. --AllyUnion (talk) 07:56, 18 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Ok unless anyone objects I will be changing the Bishōnen example from CLAMP to Princess Princess sometime after 04:30, 18 March 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Halofan101 (talk • contribs)


 * I would certainly object because the change really hasn't been discussed yet. You simply made a proposal and there has been only one comment about the proposal. --Farix (Talk) 15:57, 18 March 2008 (UTC)


 * While I agree that the CLAMP example is a rather poor one, but I'm not certain that Princess Princess is an ideal example either. AnmaFinotera (talk) 16:23, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

I believe that Princess Princess is an good example of a Bishōnen anime or at least better than "most CLAMP shows".
 * I believe the plot of the show implies Bishōnen
 * When beautiful Tooru transferred to an all-boys school, he received a warm welcome...but little did he know that his new classmates had nominated him for the academy's "Princess System." The lovely campus "Princesses" must dress as girls (in frilly Gothic Lolita costumes) at school events in order to lighten the stolid masculine atmosphere. Tooru balks at first, but soon comes to realize the advantages of being a "Princess. The fact that it says "beautiful Tooru" implies beautiful boy which is Bishōnen

It may or may not be the absolute perfect example of Bishōnen anime but it is a very good one certainly better than "most CLAMP shows" both from a NPOV and a practical point of view. Also sorry about the short time, as I said I am new to the talk concept. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Halofan101 (talk • contribs) 18:00, 18 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Princess Princess, however, is a fairly obscure title, so using it as an example wouldn't help the reader. I would suggest a better known title such as Boys Over Flowers, Absolute Boyfriend or The Wallflower. --Farix (Talk) 18:10, 18 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Good Point but I do not believe that the level of obscurity matters as long as the content is good. If a reader is looking for an example of a Bishōnen show it does not matter if it is well known or not as long as it fits the needs and provides and accurate picture of the genre. It might actually be better to use a more obscure show because people might have fewer preconceptions. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Halofan101 (talk • contribs) 18:35, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

No matter what we do I think it is safe to say that "most CLAMP" episodes" needs to be changed. Princess Princess would be ideal but I guess anything would be better then CLAMP. Halofan101 (talk) 11:59, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

I would like to purpose changing the Bishōnen anime from "most CLAMP" episodes" to Princess Princess at least on a temporary basis until farther discussion has concluded; at which time we can change it if we feel the need to. Halofan101 (talk) 13:33, 20 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Again, I must oppose the change as Princess Princess is too obscure to provide an affective example. I've already gave three other suggestions that are far less obscure but would be affective examples. --Farix (Talk) 20:14, 20 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Ok, I can compromise on this one. I can go with The Wallflower anything would be more effective than "most CLAMP" episodes" Since you already approve of this example and no one else seems to care I think it will be safe to change it to this example. Halofan101 (talk) 02:29, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Possible Source for Expansion
The first issue of PiQ has a piece written by Tatsunori Konno, president and CEO of Bandai Visual USA, entitled "Is Anime Dead?" From a segment I read, it seems to be discussion the business model of anime in Japan and how it differs from the US television model, and the state of the industry. Here is one quite from the piece posted elsewhere:

"The Japanese anime business model is fundamentally different (than movie and tv shows). Anime appears to the public via TV broadcasting at first, but the sponsors of these programs are often either the anime producers themselves, or investors in the production committee's member companies. In short, the production companies are essentially paying Japanese TV stations to broadcast their product. They consider the whole 30-minute block as an advertisement for anime DVDs or other merchandise that'll help them cover production costs later on."

AnmaFinotera (talk) 22:21, 18 March 2008 (UTC)


 * A new section on the "Business Model of Anime" might a expansion that could be created. One might be able to include things such as internet streaming or convention booth sponsoring or use of viral marketing or anything of that that line along with the concept of "30-minute block as an advertisement" idea. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Halofan101 (talk • contribs) 22:49, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Proposed edit to examples in "Progressive Anime" genre
I would like to add Angel's Egg to the list of examples, because it is much older (1985), and thus has a wider circulation. It is also extremely unique and provocative. Having 3 examples instead of 2 wouldn't break continuity much, and it would be a worthwhile in providing diversity, because the current 2 are extremely recent. Saderlius (talk) 19:56, 20 March 2008 (UTC)


 * The limit was set to two examples because it was plenty to illustrate the genre. It also prevents editors from adding their favorite anime. If progressive anime gets an exception, then editors are going to insist that all other genres receive three, then four, and on and on. However, you have not made a case as to why one of the current examples do not illustrate the genre effectively and why Angel's Egg is a more affective illustration of genre. --Farix (Talk) 20:22, 20 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Sayonara Zetsubō Sensei is already labeled as a comedy in its wiki, not progressive, but i admit progressive is a meta-genre. It is also Shōnen anime. Angel's egg is surrealist anime, which is extremely rare, with the result of symbolic content adding a considerably more progressive element to the film.
 * Progressive anime is defined as "extremely stylized", yet SZS touts not much more than a washed-out, grainy visual style that mimics film. Besides the extreme pessimism and cynicism portrayed, thats really the only progressive element going for it that i can see, and it contains little progressive content.
 * In contrast, Yoshitaka Amano uses grays and pastels to render an extremely dreary, post apocalyptic, foreboding, and gothic style to Angel's egg. The imagery constantly challenges the audience once they realize the presence of hidden metaphors- and it appeals to the subconscious. No other anime invests so much pregnant properties in the style.


 * Byōsoku 5 Centimetre is considerably more suited to be considered progressive, since it gives a realistic portrayal of the ephemeral qualities of the human condition, which is rare in anime. However, B5C is listed as Drama, and rightly so, as the content is not progressive for drama, only for drama portrayed in anime. Angel's egg is listed as "drama, fantasy, surreal", and all this achieved with practically no dialog- thats progressive!


 * Also, Angel's Egg is referenced as "progressive anime" in the opening paragraph of the wiki article. This is not surprising, since Mamoru Oshii is expressly mentioned, along side Miyazaki, in the wiki History of anime article as the most notable contributer to the "progressive anime" movement.
 * This deserves his work to be mentioned in the progressive genre example, and angel's egg is no doubt the most extreme example. Moreover, i can't find any links which label the 2 current examples as progressive anime except for this wiki article. I suggest dropping one of these in favor of Angel's Egg. To pick one, I would personally sacrifice Sayonara Zetsubō Sensei, because it appears to be less progressive. thanks for your time.
 * Saderlius (talk) 22:41, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

What else do i need to do to get it changed? Saderlius (talk) 21:46, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
 * hello? Objections? Hows my case? insufficient? who should i talk to? Saderlius (talk) 22:25, 20 April 2008 (UTC)


 * If you believe Angel's Egg is more progressive than the current examples, then replace the innaccurate one. Not much we can do but change it back. Change the link then post on here a good explanation of why. And by good, I mean really convincing. Kopf1988 (talk) 11:14, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Second sentence, second paragraph...
"... and anime is available in most motion-picture media ranging from television broadcast to literature." What is this meant to mean? If it makes a point or any sense, it certainly isn't clear to me at least. Mnealon (talk) 20:15, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Question about one of the pictures in this article
Hey theres a picture in this article that shows a few diffrent anime's in it and has the caption: "Some of the more uncommon art styles of modern anime" What animes are the bottom right one and the top left one? Phantom Wolf —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.29.138.186 (talk) 00:00, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
 * If you click on the image, there's a larger version and a description which identifies all the sources. DenisMoskowitz (talk) 17:54, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Influence on Western culture
Since I know this a highly watchlisted article, which often has contentious editing - I figure I'll suggest an inclusion here instead of putting it in. The last paragraph in the section says "'Anime conventions began to appear in the early 1990s, during the Anime boom, starting with Anime Expo, Animethon, Otakon, and JACON. Currently anime conventions are held annually in various cities across the Americas, Asia, and Europe.[51] Many attendees participate in cosplay, where they dress up as anime characters. Also, guests from Japan ranging from artists, directors, and music groups are invited.'" Perhaps that could be further expanded by including a sentence about Anime Clubs and their prevalence. AtaruMoroboshi (talk) 15:25, 25 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Go for it. KyuuA4 (talk) 03:31, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
 * OK. Quick stab at it. "'In addition to anime conventions, anime clubs have become prevalent in Colleges, High schools, and community centers as a was to publicly exhibit anime as well as broadening Japanese cultural understanding.'"Short, sweet, acknowledges its existence with out belaboring too many details. Comments? AtaruMoroboshi (talk) 14:26, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Since there is no further comment, I am adding this to the last paragraph. AtaruMoroboshi (talk) 14:50, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Suggestion
Maybe I just missed it, but it would be nice to have a link to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Anime_and_manga_by_genre, under the genre category, but maybe that's just me. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.83.179.56 (talk) 14:08, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Suggested Edits
Under "Distribution," there is a mention of five regions. This should be edited to note this applies to DVDs only, and mention that Blu-ray regions are divided into only 3, where Japan is combined with several other countries. Perhaps link to wikipeida's entry here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blu-ray_Disc#Region_codes.

The "Influence on Western culture" section needs to be rewritten. It is a bunch of sentences strung together, and no paragraph relfects its own individual thought. Maybe it would work better as a bulleted list until someone will rewrite it as a coherent section. 63.165.163.222 (talk) 18:50, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Storywriting
So. Who would like to volunteer starting up the section on the storywriting? Common cliches, etc. Granted, there is already the Genre section. KyuuA4 (talk) 00:20, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm not good at writing academically without someone giving me a second pass, but I do know the story conventions... again we need sources otherwise we'll never get to GA. If anyone has sources, comments, etc message me.--Hitsuji Kinno (talk) 23:34, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

story writing in some animes turn out beutifull but more and more ive been noticing overly complicated story lines and incomplete thoughts and explanations. for example in the rouronin kenshin series they did not finish an arc at the end leaving many fans a the end of the series with a bitter taste in their mouths. just go's to show that some things in this anime and less than desirable not to say that shows on tv today non animated are better mostly worse. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Thekamakazi (talk • contribs) 22:18, 30 April 2008 (UTC)


 * You mistake the conventions of the West to be the same for the east. That's your mistake. Japanese story telling is centric on the idea of small changes in the characters rather than grandoise changes. For example, get over Stage Fright is the center of one anime I'm currently watching. The character has all of these other plots going around her, but they never develop, because that's not the point. Japanese stories focus on the journey, not the ending or results like the West does. I fact, Korean stories and Chinese also have a strong flavor of doing stories that are more important on the journey than the end result. See, I started out in High School studying the importation of manga and anime and the different perceptions on them. And how Japanese perceive their media would be severely different from any of the countries they export to. I'd love to write something like this, but the manga article is kicking our butts and this article is a huge mess. We need references!--Hitsuji Kinno (talk) 16:15, 4 July 2008 (UTC)