Talk:Ann Dunham/Archive 2

First marriage edits
Ann would not have known in the summer of 1961 that Obama Sr would be going to Harvard over a year later, so this interpretation of Maraniss's report about Botkin's "and others" recollections can't be right. Maraniss says it was in 1962, after her husband went to Cambridge, so the assertion that she said she was going to join him in Cambridge in 1961   is not supported by that source - so what is the implication here (and why are we making an implication)? Maraniss reports that Botkin and others recall that she was on the way to Boston when she visited in 1962 and that she returned to Seattle because it didn't work out. How are we to understand "she was leaving the next day to join her husband in Boston"? That someone was lying? All of these statements are largely based on old memories, and the details may be off, but we should not be interpreting them. This section is veering into synthesis and OR - we do not have reliable sources that clearly lay out the scenario that has been included in the article, and I think we need to wait until we do, since we have sources that contradict parts of it I also question the reliability of the Seattle Museum of Mysteries website. Tvoz / talk 08:38, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Further: several sources refer to the 1961 Seattle appearance with the infant Barack as a "visit" (Brodeur, Martin, Blake interview),  "brief" (Martin, Blake interview), "passed  through"(Montgomery) - which lends credence to the possibility that she visited Seattle in 1961 when the baby was born, and returned sometime later. And there are many sources that talk about Obama Sr leaving Ann and the baby, not the other way around which is being suggested here. We need to accommodate differing sources. Tvoz / talk 09:03, 15 February 2009 (UTC)


 * I just re-phrased it slightly. This article now says: "At some point, she gave her old friends the impression that she was on her way to visit her husband at Harvard (where he would not enroll until Fall of 1962)."  I believe that the text now accommodates the differing sources.  If there are further sources that you think we ought to be relying on, bring 'em on.  :)


 * Regarding the Museum of the Mysteries, I agree it might not be the most reliable source on its own, but those articles were re-printed subject to the editorial supervision of the Capitol Hill Times and the Seattle Gay News. (It also may be noteworthy that the LeFevre articles corroborate what other sources say, and additionally offer photographic support.) As for when Ann realized that her husband had plans or ambitions to attend Harvard, I have no idea when that happened.


 * As far as I can tell, everything now in the article closely tracks the cited sources, and is fully supported by the cited sources, without discounting any of them.Ferrylodge (talk) 19:27, 15 February 2009 (UTC)


 * The "photographic support" does not actually support anything  - the picture of the house is identified as being from 1937, and all it is is a photograph of a house - nothing connecting it to anything; the tear-out allegedly from a phone directory is undated; the photo of Mary Toutonghi in 2009 is completely irrelevant.  It actually appears that the Capitol Hill Times article and the Seattle Museum of Mysteries piece - the LeFevre pieces - are pretty much in the realm of travelogues, not serious scholarship or journalism - whose understandable and reasonable purpose is to connect Obama to Seattle, perhaps for tourism reasons.  Read the pieces.  These sources are extremely weak,  and by the way I don't see that the Museum of Mysteries piece was reprinted anywhere other than the Seattle Gay News, and there's no evidence that they exercised editorial oversight.  At the risk of being repetitive - are these sources really strong enough to rely on to the extent that has been done here?   The other articles that have been written about Ann Dunham in sources like the Washington Post, Time, The New York Times, Chicago Tribune - long, detailed, researched articles in respected, well-known venues  - do not give the same spin as the LeFevre piece does, nor do they spend so much time on this subject and I think we need to weigh that into our decision about what goes in the article.  At this point it appears to me that this subject and the accompanying repetitive footnotes with copious and selective quotes in the footnotes  are given way too much weight to this short time in Dunham's life.  As  for the babysitter's recollection 47 years later about Ann's discovering that she "would not be" Sr.'s only wife,  that one needs more reliable sourcing - and Maraniss is not it. Maraniss clearly says that he  had told her he was divorced and she years later discovered it was not true - that's a different point from what the babysitter allegedly recalls.   Tvoz / talk 05:12, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Tvoz, I don't view it as a big deal if you want to remove the babysitter's recollection about Ann Dunham not being the only wife of her husband. Regarding the rest, I think it would help if you would identify whether there is anything else in the text that you believe is inaccurate or inadequately sourced.  In other words, if an article in the Seattle Gay News merely corroborates what's in another more reliable source, then I see no harm including both the former and the latter in the footnotes.  Incidentally, do we have any reason to believe the Seattle Gay News is not a WP:RS?Ferrylodge (talk) 05:21, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
 * SGN isn't corroborative - it merely reprints verbatim a local-interest fluff story that is in a less reliable, not more reliable source. So to use it as a source is just repetitive. I don't know if it's an RS - I am talking just about this reprint, and I don't see how it being reprinted in SGN makes it more valid. As for the text,  I've already said that it's ok with me to say that she returned to Seattle at some point and enrolled in the university, living as a single mother with the baby.  It's the specificity of the dates - the spin - I'm objecting to. I don't see reliable sources talking about her leaving Sr in Hawaii - I see sources saying he left her.  I've made this point over and over again, but you want to rely on these very weak sources - which are the same sources that historylink is using - to promote a different narrative that  no one has spelled out in quite this way as far as I've seen. So I object to the weight given the this inconclusive story, I object to specifying that she left Sr to finish his degree in Hawaii and I object to saying definitively that she lived in Seattle from the summer of 61 onward.  We simply don't know, and should not be ignoring the research and writing of all of the  much more reliable sources that have written articles about her - as I said above - in favor of these weak sources that rely heavily on contradictory recollections.  Ultimately, why is this so important? Tvoz / talk 06:44, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
 * The Lefevre articles corroborate what the Historylink article says and what the Redoubt Reporter article says. If you would like us to mention additional sources, then we can do that too, but I see no reason to flush Lefevre and Historylink and Redoubt Reporter.


 * If I write an article for my personal blog, and subsequently the New York Times decides it's fit to print too, then I would think the article becomes a WP:RS. By the same token, if LeFevre publishes something at a museum website, and it's subsequently picked up by a WP:RS, then there doesn't seem to be much need to consider whether the museum website is a WP:RS.  If you don't think that Historylink, or Capitol Hill News, or Seattle Gay News, or Redoubt Reporter are WP:RS, then we can investigate further, but they seem WP:RS to me, and they all say she was living in Seattle in January 1962 while taking classes at UW.


 * Ultimately, this is important because its a WP:BIO, and we want to get it right.Ferrylodge (talk) 06:57, 17 February 2009 (UTC)


 * While the articles in major newspapers based on interviews with Ann Dunham's old Mercer Island friends, reporting on their various recollections, leave many uncertainties in the movements of Ann and Barack to and from and through Seattle in 1961 and 1962, it seems that we get onto more solid ground with what has been recently reported by the Redoubt Reporter, the Capitol Hill Times, the Seattle Gay News, and HistoryLink, providing a basis for confidently including in Ann's biography that at least in early 1962 they were living in an apartment in the Villa Ria Apartments on 13th Ave. East in the Capitol Hill neighborhood, and that Ann attended night classes at the Univ. of Washington while she had Mary Toutonghi, who was living in another apartment in the same building, babysit for Barack. 76.28.158.240 (talk) 00:03, 18 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Sorry, I forgot to sign the previous comment. Canopus44 (talk) 00:07, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
 * They are all based on the same sources, however, aren't they (largely Mary Toutonghi's 47 year old memory)? So they are repetitive, not corroborative of one another.  And other far more reliable sources tell a slightly different story. So allI am saying is we should include both versions.  With all respect, I see no reason to accept the narrative of the Redoubt Reporter over that of Time magazine or the Washington Post. (And Seattle Gay News is just a reprint so I think it's time to stop citing it as if it is additional evidence of anything.) Tvoz / talk 05:52, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
 * No, the cited sources do not all rely on the babysitter. Historylink doesn't, and Capitol Hill Times doesn't.  Even if they did, I fail to understand what's inherently unreliable about a babysitter, as compared to, say, an uncited or anonymous source.


 * Moreover, if an article from an unreliable website is reprinted in the New York Times, the article becomes relibale, right? How is Seattle Gay News any different?


 * And regarding Maraniss or Time Maganzine, please provide a quote from either of those sources that contradicts what's now in this Wikipedia article. Thanks.Ferrylodge (talk) 16:52, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

←I've said it over and over. Maraniss - again, a Pulitzer-Prize winning journalist - says that what happened in 1961/62 is not clear. All I am trying to do right now is to have our article reflect that it is not clear - not just buried in a footnote, but in the text, as I had it. Some sources say one thing, others say something else, and yes, I give an in-depth researched article more weight than a sketchy travel piece. You are making definitive statements about this, and I am saying that we need to allow that recollections differ and say so in the text. And yes, I think the Washington Post's editorial oversight is more reliable than the Seattle Gay News in this instance who merely lifted a local-interest piece and reprinted it. Time magazine, the NYT, Washpo, and the others I cited above paint a picture of Sr leaving Ann and Barack, not the other way around, as I've said repeatedly. I don't know which one is true, and neither do you, but you insist on spelling out your belief that she left him, for what reason I don't know. I have offered compromise wording several times here that accommodates both scenarios and yet your edits always come back to an insistence on the narrative you prefer. You have ignored my question about undue weight, and when I asked why this matter is important I clearly was not suggesting that it is not important to be accurate - you know better than that, but that's how you answered. Try the compromise - I for one am tired of this back and forth and maybe you have better things to do too. And finally, you asked for a citation in a footnote that was itself the citation - I don't know what you want there. The article cited has erroneous information, which Newross listed in the footnote when he wrote it, and it follows the colon in the footnote: Ann did not die of breast cancer, Barack did not go to Kenya in 1985, Sr was not a Muslim, said twice. I would be happy to leave off the entire source and the text it is attached to - I believe Newross is making the point that the quote from the Daily Mail should be viewed in the context of the fact that the article is full of other errors. Tvoz / talk 00:18, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Maraniss says that some events from 1961/62 are not clear. But some are clear. It is clear that Obama had a son in 1961, for example.  The present article says "at some point" Ann Dunham gave friends the impression she was following her husband to Harvard, and that reflects the lack of clarity discussed by Maraniss.


 * It would be one thing if Maraniss said that Ann Dunham did not live in Seattle or that some other fact stated in the present Wikipedia article is false. But it's quite another for Maraniss to say that some matter is unclear --- thus leaving other reporters entirely free to clarify.


 * Again, if you would like to provide a quote at this talk page from a reliable source indicating that some fact stated in this article is wrong, then we can go ahead and make changes. I am not pushing any narrative. Please quote a reliable source that you think contradicts what's in this article.


 * You recently edited this article to say: "Old friends in Washington State recall her visiting them with her new baby, and some indicate that she and the baby returned the following year after Obama Sr. went to Harvard. During that time she enrolled at the University of Washington, and lived in the Capitol Hill neighborhood of Seattle as a single mother with her son Barack." That sure sounds to me like an assertion that she did not live in Seattle and attend UW until after her husband went to Harvard.  Why push that narrative if it's contradicted by reliable sources?Ferrylodge (talk) 00:37, 19 February 2009 (UTC)


 * OK, that was too telegraphic, and could give the wrong impression. How about something like this, which is what I was attempting to get at:  "Old friends in Washington State recall her visiting them with her new baby. Some sources indicate that she and the baby remained in Seattle and others suggest she returned the following year after Obama Sr. went to Harvard.  During that time she enrolled at the University of Washington, and lived in the Capitol Hill neighborhood of Seattle as a single mother with her son Barack."  Tvoz / talk 04:52, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
 * What source suggests she enrolled at UW after Fall 1962? And if "that time" is the time before she returned to Washington State, how could she have been living then on Capitol Hill?Ferrylodge (talk) 17:16, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Chronological list of articles about Ann Dunham and Seattle
Mar 27, 2007 Chicago Tribune video "She changed his diapers" accompanying article by Chicago Tribune national correspondent Tim Jones"Susan [Botkin] Blake (Stanley Ann Dunham's high school classmate): She came to visit briefly one afternoon in 1961 when Barry was just a few weeks old. Um, she, we were sitting at my Mom’s house, late August afternoon, ..." 'She seemed very happy and very proud,' she said. 'She had this beautiful, healthy baby. I can see them right now.'" 'We all had June Cleaver as our role models, and she was blazing new trails for herself,' said Blake, a former Mercer Island city councilwoman. The marriage was brief. By 1962, Dunham had returned to Seattle as a single mother, enrolling in the UW for spring quarter and living in an apartment on Capitol Hill. But friends said she got overwhelmed and returned to her family in Hawaii, and formally divorced Obama Sr. in 1964." "She was so proud of her baby, so relaxed, so self-possessed - excited about the future," said Blake, who changed Barry's diaper. Then, before the month was out, he took off, leaving behind his still-teenage wife and namesake child. He did not return for 10 years, and then only briefly. A story in the Star-Bulletin on the day he left, June 22, said Obama planned a several-weeks grand tour of mainland universities before he arrived at Harvard to study economics on a graduate faculty fellowship.
 * 1) Jul 18, 1995 Dreams from My Father book by Barack Obama
 * 2) Mar 27, 2007 Chicago Tribune article by Chicago Tribune national correspondent Tim Jones
 * 1) Aug 14, 2007 Obama: From Promise to Power book by Chicago Tribune reporter David Mendell
 * 2) Feb 05, 2008 Seattle Times column by  Seattle Times columnist Nicole Bordeur:"Box last saw her friend in 1961, when she visited Seattle on her way from Honolulu to Massachusetts, where her then-husband was attending Harvard.
 * 1) Mar 14, 2008 New York Times article by New York Times reporter Janny Scott
 * 2) Apr 08, 2008 Seattle Times article by Seattle Times staff reporter Jonathan Martin"Susan Blake, another high-school classmate, said that during a brief visit in 1961, Dunham was excited about her husband's plans to return to Kenya.
 * 1) Apr 09, 2008 Time magazine article by Time magazine senior writer Amanda Ripley
 * 2) May 26, 2008 Kansas City Star article by Kansas City Star reporter Rick Montgomery (reprinted Jun 01, 2008 in the Lawrence Journal-World) But all doubts dissipated when she passed through Mercer Island in 1961 with her month-old son.
 * 1) Aug 22, 2008 Washington Post article by Washington Post staff writer David Maraniss"Her husband finished his degree, graduating in June 1962, after three years in Hawaii, as a Phi Beta Kappa straight-A student.

But there is an unresolved part of the story: Did Ann try to follow him to Cambridge? Her friends from Mercer Island were left with that impression. Susan Botkin, Maxine Box and John W. Hunt all remember Ann showing up in Seattle late that summer with little Barry, as her son was called. 'She was on her way from her mother's house to Boston to be with her husband,' Botkin recalled. '[She said] he had transferred to grad school and she was going to join him. And I was intrigued with who she was and what she was doing. Stanley was an intense person. . . but I remember that afternoon, sitting in my mother's living room, drinking iced tea and eating sugar cookies. She had her baby and was talking about her husband, and what life held in store for her. She seemed so confident and self-assured and relaxed. She was leaving the next day to fly on to Boston.' But as Botkin and others later remembered it, something happened in Cambridge, and Stanley Ann returned to Seattle. They saw her a few more times, and they thought she even tried to enroll in classes at the University of Washington, before she packed up and returned to Hawaii."
 * 1) Aug 25, 2008 Christian Faith and Reason online magazine essay self-published by Nashville conspiracy theorist Michael Patrick Leahy as an excerpt of a chapter in his September 1, 2008 short paperback book What Does Barack Obama Believe? And Why it Should Worry Every American ISBN 0979497426 self-published by his Harpeth River Press. :"The real purpose of this trip, however, may have been different than Stanley Ann Dunham described to her friends. In August, 1961, she enrolled in a University of Washington extension course. Between August, 1961 and March 1962, she enrolled in a total of four extension courses at the University of Washington, earning a total of 20 credits for her work in those courses, no small feat, considering that graduation required 180 credits, and the typical full time student earned 45 credits a year. Neither Box nor Blake has any recollection of Stanley Ann telling them she was enrolling on that same trip in extension courses at the University of Washington. (40)

(40) Stanley Ann Dunham’s enrollment at the University of Washington in the spring of 1962 was originally reported by Jonathan Martin of the Seattle Times in his April 8, 2008 article “Obama’s Mother Known Here as Uncommon.” The details of her enrollment were confirmed by the author in a phone interview with Tina Peterson, Academic Specialist of the University of Washington. Ms. Peterson reported that Stanley Dunham Obama registered first in four extension courses beginning in August, 1961 and ending in March, 1962. She earned 20 credits for successfully completing this courses. She also enrolled as a full time student in the spring quarter of 1962, which began in March 1962 and ended in June, 1962. She earned 10 credits that quarter.

During these months though she was visited by some classmates, she did not actively seek to re-connect with many of her Mercer High School friends, suggesting that perhaps she was not interesting in letting them know the painful details of her personal story. Good friend Maxine Box, whose mother fed her chocolate cake after school while the two girls did their home work, attended the University of Washington during this time, and was not even aware that Dunham was living in Seattle and also attending the University of Washington at this time.

High school friend John W. Hunt apparently visited her at her Laurelhurst student apartment or her Capitol Hill apartment, as did another class mate, Barbara Cannon Rusk. Rusk recalls visiting Stanley Ann Dunham and her baby son Barack at her apartment on Capitol Hill in Seattle shortly after the end of these spring quarter classes.

I had moved to Utah for a while after high school, and I came back to Seattle in the summer of 1962. I remember visiting the World's Fair, and then stopping by Stanley Ann's apartment on Capitol Hill. It was a small apartment, upstairs. It was after June, and could have been as late as September, 1962. I visited her for half a day or so. It was after the end of the spring quarter classes, and she wasn't in classes, and didn't have a job. I recall her being melancholy at the time. I had a sense that something wasn't right in her marriage. It was all very mysterious. First, her husband wasn't there, he was already off in Harvard. I didn't ask her about the relationship, feeling it was a private matter. My daughter Michelle was just a few weeks younger than Stanley's son, who she called Barry, and they played together on the floor. (44)

(44) Phone interview of Barbara Cannon Rusk by the author, August 23, 2008." Autumn 1961 Winter 1962 Spring 1962
 * 1) Oct 24, 2008 Atlas Shrugs blog essay by St. Louis conspiracy theorist and Atlas Shrugs blog reader Rudy Schultz, posted by New York City conspiracy theorist and Atlas Shrugs blog owner Pamela Geller Oshry :"Ms. Stanley Ann Dunham was enrolled at the University of Washington for:

The records responsive to your request from the University of Washington are above as provided by the Public Disclosure Laws of Washington State. This concludes the University’s response to your Public Records request. Please feel free to contact our office if you have any questions or concerns.

Madolyne Lawson Office of Public Records 206-543-9180

'The University of Hawaii at Manoa is only able to provide the following information for Stanley Ann Dunham: Dates of attendance: Fall 1960 (First day of instruction 9/26/1960) Spring 1963 - Summer 1966 Fall 1972 - Fall 1974 Summer 1976 Spring 1978 Fall 1984 - Summer 1992

Degrees awarded: BA - Mathematics, Summer 1967 (August 6, 1967) MA - Anthropology, Fall 1983 (December 18, 1983) PhD - Anthropology, Summer 1992 (August 9, 1992)

Sincerely, Stuart Lau'

Stuart Lau University Registrar Office of Admissions and Records University of Hawaii at Manoa Ph: (808) 956-8010" Brief articles and even briefer accounts from schoolmates make the person who was the most influential person in Obama's life all the more intriguing. A single mother who enrolled in the University of Washington in 1961 and signed up for 1962 extension program, ..." Toutonghi used to baby-sit President Obama when she was neighbors with his mother.
 * 1) Jan 09, 2009 Capitol Hill Times article by Seattle Museum of the Mysteries museum director Charlette LeFevre of Capitol Hill, Seattle"Very little has been written about President-elect Barack Obama's mother Stanley Ann Dunham's time here in Seattle.
 * 1) Jan 20, 2009 Redoubt Reporter article by Redoubt Reporter publisher Jenny Neyman of Soldotna, Alaska (the Redoubt Reporter is a new 12-page weekly community newspaper first published in August 2008):"Remembrance of the 44th president as a 7-month-old baby.

Dunham attended night classes a few days a week at the University of Washington, and needed someone to take care of her son.

She watched Obama a few times a week, for about three hours at a time.

Barack Obama II was born Aug. 4, 1961, when Dunham was 18. Dunham left school to take care of the baby, and returned to Seattle while Obama Sr. finished college in Hawaii and left for graduate school at Harvard University.

She baby-sat for Dunham for two months, then she and her husband bought a house in the Government Hill section of Seattle and moved there, ..."
 * 1) Jan 28, 2009 Seattle Museum of the Mysteries article by museum director Charlette LeFevre and cosmic librarian Philip Lipson, self-published by the Seattle Museum of the Mysteries, reprinted on Feb 06, 2009 in the Seattle Gay News:"She recalls as best she can the dates she baby sat Barack as her daughter was 18 months old and was born in July of 1959 and that would have placed the months of baby sitting Barack in January and February of 1962.

Mary strains to remember the days back over forty five years ago and relates that she did not know why Anna was in Seattle but remembers she was 'anxious to get back to her husband.'

Anna was taking night classes at the University of Washington and according to the University of Washington's registrar's office her major was listed as History. She was enrolled at the University of Washington in the fall of 1961, took a full course load in the Spring of 1962 and had her transcript transferred to the University of Hawaii in the Fall of 1962. Along with the Seattle Polk Directory, Marc Leavipp of the University of Washington Registrar¹s office confirms 516 13th Ave. E. was the address Ann Dunham had given upon registering at the University." They lived in Apartment 2 of the Villa Ria Apartments at 516 13th Avenue E on Capitol Hill, and she enrolled at the University of Washington. But their stay was fairly short -- about a year -- and in 1962 they returned to Hawaii. By this time the senior Barack Obama had left Hawaii to continue his education at Harvard, with eventual plans to return to his native Kenya with his family. Dunham felt otherwise and filed for divorce in 1964.
 * 1) Feb 07, 2009 HistoryLink.org essay by financial claims professional, Sammamish Heritage Society historian and HistoryLink.org staff historian Paul Daugherty of Sammamish, Washington, partly based on the Jan 09, 2009 Capitol Hill Times article by Seattle Museum of the Mysteries museum director Charlette LeFevre:"Soon after Barack was born, Dunham and her new son moved to Seattle.

Sources : Ripley, Amanda (Apr 09, 2008). The story of Barack Obama’s mother. Time magazine Jones, Tim (Mar 27, 2007). Barack Obama: Mother not just a girl from Kansas. Chicago Tribune Martin, Jonathan (Apr 08, 2008). Obama's mother known here as 'uncommon'. Seattle Times Payne, Patti (Jan 11, 2008). Obama’s mother went to Mercer Island High School; Rossi recalls WSJ. Puget Sound Business Journal LeFevre, Charlette; co-director, Seattle Museum of the Mysteries (Jan 09, 2009). Barack Obama: From Capitol Hill to Capitol Hill. Capitol Hill Times Dougherty, Phil interview of Maxine Box, February 5, 2009, Seattle, Washington Dougherty, Phil interview of Susan Blake, January 18, 2009, Seattle Washington Dougherty, Phil interview of Tony Nugent, January 13, 2009, Seattle, Washington Dougherty, Phil interview of Iona Stenhouse, January 13, 2009, Seattle, Washington Dougherty, Phil emails from Tony Nugent, January 19, January 23, January 31, February 2, 2009, in possession of Phil Dougherty, Sammamish, Washington."
 * 1) Feb 10, 2009 HistoryLink.org essay by financial claims professional, Sammamish Heritage Society historian and HistoryLink.org staff historian Paul Daugherty of Sammamish, Washington, partly based on the Jan 09, 2009 Capitol Hill Times article by Seattle Museum of the Mysteries museum director Charlette LeFevre and the Jan 28, 2009 Seattle Museum of the Mysteries essay by museum director Charlette LeFevre and cosmic librarian Philip Lipson:"Barack Obama moves to Seattle in August or early September 1961.

Shortly after his birth on August 4, 1961, Barack Obama and his mother, 18-year-old Stanley Ann Dunham Obama, move to Seattle and rent an apartment in the Capitol Hill neighborhood. She attends classes at the University of Washington during the 1961-1962 school year while simultaneously raising her infant son. They will remain in Seattle for about a year; later in 1962 they will return to Hawaii.

President Barack Obama was born in Honolulu, Hawaii, on August 4, 1961, ... ... and not long after young Barack was born, she and her son -- her husband remained behind in Hawaii -- moved to Seattle. It appears that they arrived around the end of August 1961, as two of her friends recall Dunham returning to Mercer Island and visiting her and the new baby about this time. The new arrivals soon moved into an apartment house on Capitol Hill known as the Villa Ria Apartments, located at 516 13th Avenue E in Seattle (the building was torn down in 1985).

Dunham wasted no time getting on with her life once she and Barack settled in to their new apartment. Records from the University of Washington confirm that she registered for the autumn 1961 quarter at the University of Washington, which began on September 25, 1961. She listed her major as history.

However, other details are sketchy about their stay in Seattle. Most of Dunham’s friends saw her only briefly, if at all. But Maxine Box, Dunham’s closest friend in high school, describes a visit in the spring of 1962 with Dunham and Barack at the Capitol Hill apartment: ...

Dunham also registered for classes at the University of Washington for both the winter and spring quarters of 1962, taking a full load of classes that spring, and neighbor Toutonghi periodically babysat Barack for a couple of months while Dunham attended night classes.

But what Dunham and her young son did in Seattle after the end of the 1962 spring quarter is mostly a mystery, though they stayed for at least part of the summer of 1962. High school classmate Barbara Rusk recalls visiting them at the Capitol Hill apartment during that summer, noting that Dunham was not in school or working at the time. Other friends have also suggested the two stayed through at least part if not all of the summer. But in the autumn of 1962 Dunham transferred her transcript to the University of Hawaii, and enrolled there in the spring quarter of 1963.

Sources : Dougherty, Phil (Feb 07, 2009). Stanley Ann Dunham, mother of Barack Obama, graduates from Mercer Island High School in 1960. HistoryLink.org LeFevre, Charlette; co-director, Seattle Museum of the Mysteries (Jan 09, 2009). Barack Obama: From Capitol Hill to Capitol Hill. Capitol Hill Times Neyman, Jenny (Jan 20, 200). Obama Baby Sitter Awaits New Era -- Soldotna Woman Eager For Former Charge’s Reign. Redoubt Reporter LeFevre, Charlette; Lipson, Philip; co-directors, Seattle Museum of the Mysteries (Jan 28, 2009). Baby Sitting Barack Obama on Seattle's Capitol Hill. Seattle Museum of the Mysteries Dougherty, Phil interview of Maxine Box, February 5, 2009, Seattle, Washington Dougherty, Phil interview of Susan Blake, January 18, 2009, Seattle Washington Dougherty, Phil interview of Tony Nugent, January 13, 2009, Seattle, Washington Dougherty, Phil emails from Tony Nugent, January 19, January 23, January 31, February 2, and February 7, 2009, in possession of Phil Dougherty, Sammamish, Washington."
 * Seattle Museum of the Mysteries (included with the Go Seattle Card):


 * The Seattle Museum of the Mysteries is a paranormal science museum with exhibits, library and cultural center exploring the legends, lore, UFO history, Bigfoot :and haunted locations of the Northwest.


 * Museum houses big foot casts, photos of Washington State Crop Circles, a musical instrument the theramine, and photos of Frances Farmer and Bruce Lee who lived here on Capitol Hill.


 * Home of the Capitol Hill Ghost Tour Lecture series with authors and researchers and a Haunted Lock-In on Fridays and Saturdays exploring the back hallways of Seattle's first post-prohibition bar.


 * Come see exhibits on Kenneth Arnold, Maury Island UFO Mystery, D. B. Cooper, and Famous spirits of Seattle, Kurt Cobain, Frances Farmer, Jimi Hendrix and Bruce Lee.


 * Articles about Charlette LeFevre, Philip Lipson, the Art Bell  Chat Club, and the Seattle Museum of the Mysteries :


 * Rahner, Mark (February 4, 2001). Art Bell circling airwaves again. The Seattle Times, p. B1.


 * Rahner, Mark (May 25, 2001). Aliens, Bigfoot and UFOs! To be talked about if not seen at a normal gathering on the paranormal. The Seattle Times, p. E1.


 * Dunnewind, Stephanie (December 27, 2001). Quirky clubs liven up the dead of winter. The Seattle Times, p. G6.


 * Parvaz, D. (January 31, 2005). Mysteries lurk between the walls of Capitol Hill museum. Seattle Post-Intelligencer, p. F1.


 * Smith, Carol (October 28, 2006). Museum proprietors protest 'Bodies' show. Seattle Post-Intelligencer, p. B1.


 * McDougall, Connie (October 30, 2008). Boo! Ghost tours and more at Seattle's Museum of the Mysteries. The Seattle Times, p. E14.

I'm willing to believe that Ann and her newborn son Barack Obama moved to Seattle by August or September 1961 and that Ann attended the University of Washington for the 1961–1962 academic year, I just wish the sourcing for this didn't rely so heavily on articles by the co-directors of "Washington State's only paranormal science museum." Newross (talk) 06:16, 19 February 2009 (UTC) Newross (talk) 15:57, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
 * That's quite an impressive list. You missed Anderson, Rick.“Putting One of Our Own in (or Near) the White House”, Seattle Weekly (2008-10-21).  Also missed Anderson, Chantal.  "Obama's Seattle home?”, Seattle Times (2009-01-23).
 * If it's any consolation, those aren't the full-time jobs of LeFevre and Lipson. Lipson is a market researcher (trained as a library archivist), and Lefevre is an administrative assistant.  They’ve exposed hoaxes, such as a man’s claim to have captured an alien and put it in his freezer.  And they’ve sued another museum for displaying human remains of non-consenting dead people.  Ultimately, I would agree with you that their Museum website is not a reliable source, even though it seems more for entertainment and social value than paranormal advocacy; however, their reporting was accepted for publication by reliable sources, and is corroborated by other reliable sources.  A lot of reporters have really weird religions that posit resurrection from the dead, or turning water into wine/blood, or having conversations with burning trees, and all kinds of superstitious gobbledygook, but we don't deny they're WP:RS.Ferrylodge (talk) 17:13, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Infobox
Per Template: Infobox Person, we do not use both the "nationality" and "citizenship" parameters when they are the same: ''Nationality. May be used instead of citizenship (below) or vice versa in cases where any confusion could result. Should only be used with citizenship when they somehow differ.'' Tvoz / talk 02:58, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Common short name?
Do her friends and family most commonly call her Ann or Anna or?--69.196.188.171 (talk) 21:16, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

Dissertation > Book
It's nice that Duke University Press will publish Dunham's dissertation as a book, but the proper time to put this in the article is when it comes out. As I know too well, not all announced books ever make it to print, although this time, the author can't make revisions;-) Bellagio99 (talk) 01:51, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
 * That may be an appropriate policy for one's CV - although most do list forthcoming books as such - but I think a well-sourced announcement from a press that they are publishing this book is safe to include in a bio. There is an ISBN, the book is listed in their catalog, there must already be a signed contract - it's not just a vague assertion of interest. Should they reneg on their announcement we can decide what to say, but I don't think that's happening. Tvoz / talk 06:00, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Paternal and Maternal line
Paternal and maternal is jargon, it just means the direct line. Was changing it because not ALL of her father's ancestor were from Indiana, just the the direct paternal line (father's father's parents) and same with the Arkansas maternal line (mother's mother' parents) Cladeal832 (talk) 19:13, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Ancestry & Early life sections
I've consolidated the sections on her ancestry to one, by moving the text down to where the chart is. Although obviously chronologically her ancestry comes before her early life, having a separate section up front as the first section of text doesn't make sense for a biography of her whole life, and then having a second section below for the chart (which I am not sure is even needed here) I think  gives more weight than is appropriate. I also rearranged the early life section which jumped around and was repetitive. Tvoz / talk 00:07, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Communism
It seems a bit misleading to describe her only a "liberal" and "feminist". Kauffner (talk) 04:23, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Ah yes, that well-known reliable source AmericanThinker.com. Shii (tock) 17:26, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

"Native European" etc discussion re Ann Dunham's father
An IP editor would like to expand the Ann Dunham page to include purported details about Ann's father's "native European" ancestry. I have reverted twice, and would appreciate some comment. My reasons for reverting:


 * No documentation is provided for the claims in this expansion.
 * "Native European" is not a commonly-used phrase for people, but mostly used for plants, parasites, etc.
 * Not necessary for this article, which is long enough. If it belongs anywhere (with documentation, etc.), it would be in the article about Ann Dunham's father.

Bellagio99 (talk) 13:55, 6 September 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm sorry you didn't understand "native European ancestor" wasn't a plant or parasites or the most recent ancestor born in Europe. I'll add an article explaining it but you read the references, the Chicago Sun-Times mentions all the facts you. Fulmoth Kearney has been mentioned in one then one speech by President Obama and I don't know about in the United States, but within Ireland, it's of huge interest and Wikipedia English isn't suppose to be from a purely American POV. 66.185.217.157 (talk)
 * It is certainly interesting, but none of those sources appear to mention Ann Dunham. Viriditas (talk) 21:39, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Many sources within this article, including the ancestry section, doesn't mention Ann Dunham specifically. That's not really a reason. Ann Dunham's Irish roots are discussed quite a lot in Ireland and worth a mention. To address the other points, the New England Historic Genealogical Society (sited within this article) states so. It's one line about European ancestry in a ancestry section. 66.185.217.157 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 23:54, 6 September 2009 (UTC).
 * Most, if not all of the sources in this article, discuss Ann Dunham. If they don't, then please bring these sources to my attention. Viriditas (talk) 07:29, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

← I agree with Bellagio's reverts and the arguments stated here by him and Viriditas. This is not an article on Ann Dunham's ancestry, it's her overall biography. Indeed, I think there is more emphasis here even now on ancestry than is warranted - I would like to shorten the section, remove the chart, and point to the individual articles on her parents where the reconstructed charts could go. Tvoz / talk 19:50, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Done - I think this brings the weight of her ancestry into better balance here. See Stanley Armour Dunham and Madelyn Dunham for detailed charts which are more appropriate there as is the more detailed material on each of their most recent European-born ancestors. I think this should satisfy the interests of American as well as non-US readers, in keeping with general policies. Happy to discuss, of course. Tvoz / talk 20:32, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

posthumous Mormon baptism
A paragraph has been added regarding a posthumous baptism by the Mormon church. Seems to me that this does not belong in this biography, as it is not reflective of her own beliefs or decisions. Posthumous studying of her anthropological work is relevant, because it is of her work - but this baptism really seems to have nothing to do with her. Thoughts? Tvoz / talk 06:07, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Here's the material that was added by User:98.14.216.29:
 * "She was posthumously baptized by the Mormon church during Barack Obama's presidential campaign."
 * Can anyone discuss why the Mormon church would do this? What does it mean for them to baptize her without her or her family's permission?  The original article can no longer be accessed so I can't read it. Viriditas (talk) 07:41, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
 * A copy can be found here. It would appear that it was done without consent of any family member, and the Mormons have come under criticism for this sort of proxy baptism in the past.  I'd be interested in seeing of there was ever a follow-up to their "we'll look into it" statement, but this doesn't seem to have much encyclopedic value here.  Perhaps if there is an article or section elsewhere on the issues with proxy baptism, this could go as an example. Tarc (talk) 12:28, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
 * And another which says that the church removed Dunham's name. Tarc (talk) 12:31, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Thank you, that's interesting. I have no idea if it is appropriate for this article or not, but if it is, I would expect more coverage on the topic than just two sources. Viriditas (talk) 18:20, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

I am glad to see this item was removed. In relation to posthumous or vicarious baptisms, the likelihood is that this a case of straw man rhetoric. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints has specific guidelines outlining the appropriateness of performing family proxy ordinances.

in the article posted on Wikipedia (Baptism for the Dead) we read, "..To be sensitive to the issue of proxy baptizing for non-Mormons that are not related to Church members, the Church in recent years has published a general policy of performing temple ordinances only for direct ancestors of Church members. For example, the Church is in the process of removing sensitive names (such as Jewish Holocaust victims) from its International Genealogical Index (IGI)."

It is also important to recognize the spirit with which the LDS people approach Baptism for the Dead. When a proxy baptism is performed it is clearly understood that it is completely predicated upon the principle of free agency, or the deceased individual's acceptance of the ordinance. As the Church teaches, "God will force no man to Heaven." For this reason it is important to recognize that while it is against Church policy to perform proxy baptisms for individuals not directly related to a Church member, there are likely to be cases of well-intending Church members performing baptisms which might contradict this Church policy. But from my observations, the Church is moving very quickly and sincerely to inform members of these policies and to remove names which might be inappropriately insensitive to others (as is the case with Holocaust victims).

From this perspective and context it should be clear that listing information (true or speculative) on whether a famous individual has been a recipient of proxy LDS work is in many cases simply inflammatory. If an individual has a sincere concern concerning whether a deceased person has received proxy work, they would be better off expressing their concerns by contacting the Church directly (lds.org) and communicating their concerns. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.199.147.225 (talk) 07:50, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Time article is insufficient source for citation of medical misdiagnosis
I noticed the part of the article mentioning stomach pain after dinner, and a diagnosis of indigestion by a local doctor. Since none of us were there in the consultation room, it seems that inclusion of this anecdote is overweighted. There's an inference of negligence in my mind, against the physician that saw her, and maybe as well some inference about medical attention in general in Indonesia. There's also some sense of proximate cause resulting in death due to an untimely diagnosis of cancer. Without a finding of fact by a medical board, or an opinion by a medical professional that can be cited, it is irresponsible to include this information from a Time magazine article. For all we really know, that incidence may have been in part indigestion, or probably the doctor's opinion would have been totally discounted, and a second opinion sought. See where this goes sliding into conjecture within seconds? Stick to relevent proveable facts, please. 121.1.18.242 (talk) 02:22, 13 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Dear 121, Thank you for your comment. While Time is usually considered a reliable source in WP, I took your comment seriously and changed "misdiagnosed" to "diagnosed". However, As the phrase is brief, I don't think it is overweighted, and it does seem to be the beginning of a sad sequence. As my wife had uterine cancer (fortunately, caught early), I took especial note of this section. Bellagio99 (talk) 14:51, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
 * It's more than Time, and there is nothing wrong with the term. I suggest we take this to WP:MED for review.  I will notify them immediately. Viriditas (talk) 15:00, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Ok, I've temporarily removed it because the Time source says "diagnosed". However, other sources say "misdiagnosed" and somehow that source was used instead.  I'll take this to WP:MED and go with whatever they decide. Viriditas (talk) 15:10, 13 December 2009 (UTC)


 * I would not apply the term "misdiagnosed", which implies negligence, unless this has been found on official enquiry. Who says the she did not also have indigestion? JFW | T@lk  15:35, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Ok, thanks. I used an article by David Maraniss in The Washington Post as the original source for this claim, and I see now, from the discussion above, that it was a red flag.  I'm not clear on how a link to Time magazine ended up in its place.  I'm pretty upset that I failed to see this until now. Viriditas (talk) 16:14, 13 December 2009 (UTC)


 * If some sources call her "indigestion" a misdiagnosis, the most that can be said here is "X call it a misdiagnosis". It is entirely possible to have an abdominal cancer and indigestion, and most cases of indigestion have nothing to do with cancer. --Una Smith (talk) 18:15, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
 * An important point. If I had been paying closer attention, I would never have added it (and reverted it back into the article after it was removed).  Can you hear that?  That's the sound of me kicking myself... Viriditas (talk) 11:18, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Another important point is that many abdominal and pelvic cancers are detected when the person goes to a doctor for an unrelated reason and gets a thorough physical exam. The relatively short time between visiting a doctor in Indonesia for "indigestion" and visiting a cancer specialty hospital in the United States suggests that someone detected a mass, which often is the first sign.  Perhaps credit for detecting the cancer belongs to the doctor in Indonesia.  Formal diagnosis comes after detection.  Ovarian and uterine cancers often are diagnosed soon after the woman is examined for nonspecific complaints, not because diagnosis is delayed, but because the woman receives a physical exam, often the first in many years.  In the US women are advised to get an annual physical exam, but many do not follow that advice.  --Una Smith (talk) 15:09, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

Article Should Include Evidence of Dunham's University Attendance in Washington State in 1961
There is substantial, documented evidence, including a transcript, that Dunham attended the University of Washington in August 1961. You may not like the source (WND) but a transcript is a transcript: http://www.wnd.com/index.php?pageId=106018 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.29.40.2 (talk) 23:05, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
 * We need better documentation, as the WND cannot be trusted. If it is raining outside, the WND has a habit of saying it is snowing. As for the use of primary documents like transcripts, they can be twisted to say different things.  For example, on one of my old university transcripts, it says I took a course and received a grade for that course.  However, I never took the course and never attended the class. Viriditas (talk) 23:12, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

The transcript shown by the link is substantial, documented evidence that Dunham DID NOT attend the University of Washington in August 1961. The classes cited are under the section titled EXTENSION & CORRESPONDENCE COURSES, which means that they were not taken on campus. Her first courses actually taken on campus are posted in the main section and dated SPRING QTR 62, which points to a timeframe around April thru June of '62. Notice how the other set of extension courses end on 03/15/62. If she had attended the University of Washington starting Fall Qtr 61, the classes and grades would posted in the main section and WOULD NOT have been preceded by an X (for extension courses).


 * Extension courses from 09/19/61-12/12/61: POL S X201 MODERN GOVERNMENT, ANTH X100 INTRO STUDY MAN
 * Extension courses from 12/27/61-03/15/62: PHIL X120 INTRO TO LOGIC, HIST X478 HIST AFRICA SOUTH

It appears that despite having an infant to take care of, she continued her studies for two quarters by taking a pair of extension classes (possibly night classes). JackOL31 (talk) 17:44, 8 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Let me revise some of the previous statements. An extension course means it wasn't a course offered by the university, but rather some other educational entity. The transcripts show the first official UW courses were taken during the Spring quarter '62. Other information points to her being in Seattle in 1962, so it is possible she took the Fall courses in HI, and the Winter courses in WA (and the extension classes could have been offered on the UW campus). Since they were extension courses, the information regarding where they were attended is unfortunately not on the transcript. JackOL31 (talk) 18:24, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Either find better sources than a WND article written by Jerome R. Corsi with the heading "BORN IN THE USA?" or this discussion is over. Viriditas (talk) 19:20, 8 May 2010 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure who died and made you boss. I'll discuss this for as long as it is worthwile. I'm not stating anything WND says. The only thing I'm looking at is the image of the transcript. If you weren't being so obnoxious, you'd notice that I'm saying the transcript is no proof that she attended UW in Sept '61. All it indicates is that she took a couple of extension courses somewhere and they are posted to her transcript. This very article indicates that she was in Seattle in January '62, so if true, she still wasn't attending the UW yet, even if she were enrolled. All we can discern from the transcripts is that she once again took extension courses, possibly in HI if she hadn't left yet, or in WA if she moved to Seattle in Jan '62. From the transcripts, we DO KNOW that she was enrolled and attended classes Spr Qtr 62, which means classes would have most likely started in Apr '62. Would that be one or two helpings of crow? JackOL31 (talk) 19:51, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
 * We don't interpret controversial primary source documents without good secondary sources. Viriditas (talk) 20:11, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
 * If you have some proof that the image is not an accurate depiction of her UW transcript, please cite it now. Otherwise, if any website includes external content or images and then goes on to misinterpret that information to make a false claim, I will call them out on it. As far as I'm concerned, Anonymous (207.29.40.2) editor's claim that the image indicates that Ann Dunham attended the UW in August 1961 (or Sept 1961) has been refuted. JackOL31 (talk) 23:36, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
 * The burden of proof works the other way around; WND has reported on fraudulent documents on their website before.[ http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=105764 ] In any event, what edit are you proposing needs to be made?  Please be brief in your reply. Viriditas (talk) 00:53, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

More info at http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=107889

This is what we know from the images only.


 * Extension course 08/19/61-12/11/61: ANTH X100 INTRO STUDY MAN
 * Extension course 08/19/61-12/12/61: POL S X201 MODERN GOVERNMENT


 * Extension course 12/27/61-03/15/62: HIST X478 HIST AFRICA SOUTH
 * Extension course 12/27/61-03/20/62: PHIL X120 INTRO TO LOGIC

and Spring '62 courses.

With extension courses one doesn't know the actual timeframe of study. Extension courses are mainly self-study so while technically enrolled from 08/19/61-12/12/61, she could have started in say, September after the clock started ticking. If there was an actual class, she could have missed the initial classes. So, all we know is that she did attend UW during the Fall '61 Quarter and completed those courses, but the information on the transcripts does not necessarily support WND's conclusion that she was physically present on 8/19. So, we could show the transcript information, but we have no solid information regarding dates for her arrival in Seattle. I can't find transcript information anywhere other than WND (or forks) so I guess there is nothing to add. JackOL31 (talk) 03:47, 10 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Jack, Extension courses are not necessarily self-study. I don't know the U Dub situation, but in Toronto, they "continuing studies" courses typically require regular attendance. Bellagio99 (talk) 13:02, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

Second marriage
Currently the page says "Dunham met Lolo Soetoro, a student from Indonesia.[28] They married in 1966 or 1967" Are we sure they got married since we don't have an exact date and are fuzzy on the year?75.57.121.90 (talk) 15:05, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
 * See reply the other place you asked, at Barack Obama
 * Fat&amp;Happy (talk) 16:22, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

Barack's father's other wife(s)
A user has repeatedly inserted extended discussion into the Ann Dunham page about other wives. Without commenting on the reliability of this material, I have reverted it because it would be more appropriately placed -- if valid and reliable -- on President Obama's father's page with a brief mention here. The paragraph is not really about Ann Dunham but about her ex-husband. Bellagio99 (talk) 18:59, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
 * No. That is not true.  Ann Dunham's husband, Pres. Obama's father, was married to a woman in Kenya when married Ann Dunham.  That means that he was a polygamist while being married to Ann Dunham.  It is very, very notable and relevant to Ann Dunham's life.  Also, Ann Dunham has admitted that he husband was married to another woman while married to him.  Also, the source for this fact is an article from Forbes magazine, a reliable source.  Also, the information was presented in NPOV manner.  There is no reason for the deletion.  I will replace.--InaMaka (talk) 00:27, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
 * No, you will not replace. You will calmly discuss this subject until we have reached a consensus on the matter.  The burden is on the editor adding content to justify their edits when challenged. Viriditas (talk) 00:48, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
 * No, you did not respond to my comments. All you did was give me a command.  Now, let's go over the facts one by one again.  (1)  Ann Dunham was married to a man who was already married to another woman.  (2)  Being married to two woman at the same time makes you a polygamist.  (3) Ann Dunham was the second wife of a man who was a polygamist.  (4)  This is a fact that is supported by a reliable source. (5) It was added in a NPOV manner. (6)  The fact that she was married to a polygamist and she WAS the second wife of the polygamist is an integral part of who she was therefore it is notable. Please do not talk to me as did in the last comment telling me "you will calmly discuss this subject."  That type of command is inappropriate.  Please respond to the facts as I laid them out and express your concerns only.--InaMaka (talk) 01:36, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
 * No, you are not listening. You've attempted to add your disputed material to this and other articles many times today, in contravention of our sourcing policies.  You've also been warned on your talk page that this article is the subject of probation sanctions.  So, right away, you failed to read the probation notice at the top of this talk page, and the link that will take you to General_sanctions/Obama_article_probation.  You are now subject to a remedy because you have edit warred.  You need to slow down, and take the time to look and listen to what people are telling you.  Now, what is it exactly you are trying to do?  You are trying to add negative information that is not about Ann Dunham.  What sources are you using?  Let's take a look. This source is not about Obama, but a polemic against Obama's economic policies.  Hardly acceptable for this article.  I think we are done here unless you have something of interest to add, such as "I'm sorry, it won't happen again". Viriditas (talk) 01:54, 22 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Viriditas has it exactly right. Tvoz / talk 07:52, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

Ethnicity
Wikipedia's policy is to avoid extra emphasize on ethnicity unless it is relevant to the article. Therefore, I will remove ethnicity from her infobox unless good reasons are proposed. -- An d Re w 21:20, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Dunham's BA
There seems to be some dispute about whether Dunham's University of Hawaii BA was in Anthropology or Mathematics. All the objective sources(articles in the newspapers; the 1/09 issue of the UH magazine Malamala, etc.) support the latter. There is also a scan of a letter from the Registrar to this effect, though that seems to only be available for viewing on 'birther' sites so could be forged (though it is hard to imagine how the field of the degree would help their argument).

On the other hand, in comments to the Malamalama article op cit, someone in the UH Anthropology Dept. recalls her studying there as an undergraduate, and this is repeated in the Dewey article now linked to. These recollections are hardly definitive as to the official degree, unless the UH Anthropolgy Dept. at that time categorically did not accept students with degrees in other fields. Dunham probably did study in that department as an undergrad, but that doesn't mean her BA was there; she might have changed her declaration for technical reasons (eg, to better meet distribution requirements). This is not uncommon, especially for nontraditional students, though if she really had enough upper-division mathematics to switch majors at the last minute that would be very impressive.

On balance, there seems to be at least as much evidence that the degree was in math as that the degree was in anthro; the article should either be changed back, or made neutral. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.253.210.136 (talk) 22:10, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
 * My understanding is that the "birther" file is courtesy of Pamela Gellar, whose article on Wikipedia documents a number of fabricated claims associated with her blog, including fake documents. Professor Geoffrey M. White of the Department of Anthropology at the University of Hawai'i at Mānoa claims they have Dunham's undergraduate work for a degree in anthropology on file, however, the UH Department of Mathematics claims Dunham is a "UH-Manoa Mathematics alumna".  Curiouser and curiouser, down the rabbit hole we go. Viriditas (talk) 02:42, 24 November 2010 (UTC)
 * This should be an easy matter of fact, namely have someone credible contact the Registrar, though I don't know who that credible person would be. I apologize again for posting the link to the scan (which still looks legitimate to me, at least they seem to have got the registrar's name and letterhead right), I understand the desire to ban links to websites with a reputation for making stuff up.
 * I doubt the Professor is lying, but I also assume there's a reason newspaper articles (and even the UH magazine article on which he posted his comment) have invariably described her as a math BA. As I mention above, it is quite possible for him to be correct and for the actual degree to have been in math.  If true, the reason for this would be interesting in itself.
 * It still seems to me that until there is better evidence one way or the other, preferably in the form of an affirmation from UH, the default should not be that the newspapers are all wrong and the slightly vague statements from of a couple of people should be considered true until proved otherwise. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.253.210.136 (talk) 04:42, 24 November 2010 (UTC)
 * At this point, my personal preference is to leave out mentioning the BA altogether, and replace it with a descriptive footnote explaining the contradiction. How can two departments not be on the same page in regards to a degree?  Does this make sense to anyone?  Is it really that hard to get the facts on this?  I'm really amazed at how complicated, convoluted, and bureaucratic our institutions have become.  Undeniably, the primary social values important to human society are simplicity and streamlined efficiency, and in this day and age of instant information, why the hell is this so difficult? Viriditas (talk) 05:19, 24 November 2010 (UTC)


 * The kerfuffle about what was the undergrad major of the deceased Ms Dunham is starting to remind me of A Canticle for Liebowitz. :) Bellagio99 (talk) 21:38, 4 December 2010 (UTC)