Talk:Ann Wigmore/Archive 1

Criticism section
The criticism section shows western bias. Looks like it needs modification. Western medicine is largely based on anecdotal evidence, but it decries anything 'other' that is anecdotal. Anthon01 13:07, 12 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Western medicine is based on this thing... oh what's it called agin... oh yes, EVIDENCE. That's called science. Anecdotal evidence is all hot air. Science requires you prove your claim or STFU. Smidoid (talk) 14:00, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Evidence can be good. Doesn't the case against orthopathy revolve around (a) whether or not the treatments are truly 'harmless' and (b) opportunity costs of pursuing ineffective health interventions? Isn't traditional 'epistemological' posturing of those who do not yet have sufficient data for selecting (yet alone advocating) a 'therapy' one of 'we just don't know'? Isn't some of the text in this article presumptive that 'everyone' (in the know) knows that what they have traditionally received in contraindicated? The money goes one way; how would one with limited resources make the BEST informed decision about 'therapeutic options'? MaynardClark (talk) 19:33, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

Notability section
The book "Green for Life by Victoria Boutenko, devotes an entire chapter to her and has numerous other references to her. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.2.137.249 (talk) 19:07, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

Ann Wigmore was and is referred to as "Dr. Ann." It is important to list the institution granting this Doctorate. Biochemystery (talk) 19:23, 29 December 2011 (UTC) Biochemystery

We need to find out what that institution is? Some say that it was 'mail order' - but ... MaynardClark (talk) 14:25, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

Returned orthopathy link (because that pretty much characterizes her theme - merely listing 'whole foods' advocate does not capture Wigmore's broader theme; I worked for her for a while, learning what type of vegetarianism - raw veganism - she taught. MaynardClark (talk) 00:43, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

Fire and comments
Ann Wigmore died of smoke inhalation on February 16, 1994 from faulty wires in the wall at the AWF on Commonwealth Avenue in Boston.

I recall the event as follows: Ann Wigmore (her surname from her marriage) awoke several hours after midnight and tried to make herself a pot of tea with a carelessly wired electric hot water heater. (Is heated tea, is any tea other than "sun tea" permitted on a "living foods diet"?) She died in that fire, but her bichon frise dog, Precious, got out. A young Asian woman, hand-picked by "Dr. Ann", became the head of the Ann Wigmore Foundation (today the Ann Wigmore Natural Health Institute), which had (been) split off from the HHI after a logistical dispute within the decisionmaking powers of HHI, which includes Brian Clement. Talk was that "Dr. Ann" was an old lady who should be retired because she could no longer manage the affairs of the HHI, which she and Viktoras Kulvinskas had co-founded. Much was at issue financially, and the AWF was formed and HQd in the Back Bay brownstone next door to 25 Exeter Street, at 196 Commonwealth Avenue (entrance around the corner, on Commonwealth Avenue rather than or Exeter Street or "in the alley"). Brian Clement moved HHI to a property in West Palm Beach, where it remains today. Several "raw foods" gurus were running their own fasting resorts in that area, including ___... —Preceding unsigned comment added by MaynardClark (talk • contribs) 01:50, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, that is correct. MaynardClark (talk) 16:39, 12 September 2018 (UTC)

Criticism
There are two problems with the criticism section - first, it's as long as the bio of Wigmore, and second, it's not criticism of her. Either the article should be expanded to include specific information about her works, which a criticism section could be a part of, or there should be a separate article. Anchoress · Weigh Anchor · Catacomb 03:17, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

How about an article on 'criticism of vegan raw foods advocacy'? I'm a long-time consistent vegan, but the debate on raw v. cooked can be heard often enough. MaynardClark (talk) 00:53, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

Another problem is the absence of logic in the criticism. Julie Walsh, a registered dietitian and a spokeswoman at the American Dietetic Association said, "Man has used fire to cook food for ages. To refrain from heating or processing foods could even be risky." Could Ms. Walsh name any other species that cooks food? Why are humans so special in Nature that they cannot subsist on techniques that are adequate for all other species? Saileshrao (talk) 07:10, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

Yet another type of problem in the "criticisms" (until I corrected them) had been grammatical: number (worry should have been 'worries' - and was corrected), tense, and voice. Could such carelessness really voice criticisms optimally? There may have been substance behind the statements, but they could have been worded far better. MaynardClark (talk) 00:53, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

All links among the three Criticism items are broken. Can someone fix--or should they just be deleted?Markdf10825 (talk) 04:23, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

Over the years (in America at least), the raw food movement within the vegetarian and vegan movement(s) has grown considerably. I think that criticism is not that humans have long done x or y, but that humans who do NEITHER x nor y can do very well and can experience dramatically better health outcomes, perhaps even relaxing their bodies so that they can heal faster and more effectively. Further, the presence of clouded thinking by some practitioners of -x or -y is no real argument against -x or -y. Let x = cooking food, let y = eating meat and/or other animal products. MaynardClark (talk) 14:25, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

On this talk page, we have TWO criticism sections. Could they be combined into a single 'criticism' section? MaynardClark (talk) 00:41, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

Vandalism
Can this article be semiprotected from edits by unregistered persons? What we see in the malevolent edit I just reverted is the vulnerability of much of our online content. Can that person's IP address be blocked? MaynardClark (talk) 14:25, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 08:53, 27 June 2014
I think that 'Awnhi' could have ADDED TO the standing article the information instead of using it to REPLACE what had existed.

As such, I think that Asnhi's edit should be reverted because it "vandalized" previously documented content and converted/converts the article into something more like a 'puff piece' and less like an encyclopedia article.

Indeed, one can argue that anyone can present herself as she wants to present herself (as 'Dr. Ann'), but that replacement text (in removing more detailed, less mythical information) clouds the figure's past history in the 'lifetime mythos' in which she lived until she tripped over the frayed cord in Beacon Hill and triggered a fire which burned down her residence, which fire resulted in her death (and the world's loss of 'Dr. Ann').

But who had 'Dr. Ann' been? That biographical research on her natural personage should not be disrespected.MaynardClark (talk) 13:09, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

ALTHOUGH the 'revisions' by Awnhi' seem to have been copied from an online source (theyare NOT in Wikipedia format), I've inserted them in the standing article to avoid (temporarily) a 'revision war' on the article. I've tried to BEGIN to 'Wikify' the article. However, those revisions (not my own) lack documentation and brevity. Nonetheless, I know that the text is factual, though not in Wikipedia format.
 * The books have not been given their Amazon or other publication links.
 * Later-life statements about Ann Marie Warap ('Dr. Ann') have not been fully cited in reputable sources (other than publications in Dr. Ann's own writings, or in online publications of the legacy institutions which drew their inspirations from what she had done and the persona she had developed in Boston.

On 'criticism', one could easily have cited her run-in with the Massachusetts Attorney General's office aboout her therapeutic claims, which Dr. Ann and her organization (HHI) may not have fully documented during her lifetime. My estimation is that Dr. Ann's nd HHI's need to address charges against her resulted in her efforts to document those claims, which led to her bringing Brian Clement to Hippocrates Health Institute (HHI) in Boston. Later, Brian Clement took over HHI, so Dr. Ann attracted followers to fund another 'new HHI' next door to HHI (Commonwealth Avenue brownstone), known as The Ann Wigmore Foundation. MaynardClark (talk) 13:35, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

History of HHI and AWF
I'm sorry to see the historical content on HHI removed. I think that it helped serious readers understand Ann Wigmore and HHI/AWF much better. It would be good if that content could be or could have been sourced and noted in a footnote for further inquiry. MaynardClark (talk) 18:27, 27 June 2014 (UTC)


 * My observation from my being present at the time of the founding of AWF (and thus eyewitnessing it) is that Brian Clement in effect 'stole' control of HHI from Ann Wigmore, who protested her loss of control of the entity she had founded. The extant narrative at that time was that Ann Wigmore, her allies, and a lawyer legally formed the Ann Wigmore Foundation (AWF) at 196 Commonwealth Avenue (next door to HHI), where she continued her (somewhat experimental) practices, while HHI then under Brian Clement, continued uneasily their work.  I recall that Brian Clement was, at that time, interested in establishing an evidence base for the claims that Ann Wigmore was making; he believed that solid evidence existed for many of the claims and that further research would validate those claims, which had been based upon extensive clinical observation.  Clement at that time advocated the careful design of randomized clinical trials for the Wigmore-based therapies, which may be consider to have 'an intuitive inspiration' claimed by sensitive practitioners.

Again, that was a claim, and this statement is based upon a memory of numerous conversations of very long ago with Brian Clement before his long drawn-out years of formal study. My claim is that AWF was REPORTEDLY formed to give Ann Wigmore a base from which she could continue her presence and practice; she lived nearby in a unit that she either rented or owned. However, the narrative of her death (from the Boston Globe) seems to be that she lived, at that time, in the 196 Commonwealth Avenue building (of the Ann Wigmore Foundation). The AWF continued for a while in the badly-damaged (from fire) building, until an internal decision was made to relocate to the West Coast. MaynardClark (talk) 00:44, 4 October 2016 (UTC)


 * Thanks for your note. However, your eyewitness account has no value here for a couple of reasons.  First, we have no way to know if what you are saying is true or you are who you say you are.  Secondly per the WP:VERIFY policy we need reliable sources for all content; what a "reliable source' is defined in the two guidelines, WP:RS and WP:MEDRS.  Because there is pseudoscience here, WP:PARITY may come into play as well.   Jytdog (talk) 00:48, 4 October 2016 (UTC)


 * I'm not DOING the pseudoscience; I am reporting what is a social process. Now, what has already been demonstrated is that Ann Wigmore was required to not claim that dietary interventions could help manage glycemic load.  At that time, dietary interventions were questioned for any health condition.  However, today, dietary interventions (including withdrawing problem foods from affected individuals) is considered common practice.  Those times were at the time Jimmy Carter was in office. MaynardClark (talk) 00:55, 4 October 2016 (UTC)


 * My eyewitness account has value in the talk page. It is NOT in the body of the article, where these stipulations apply.  It's possible to contact Dr. Brian Clement of Hippocrates Health Institute to question the claim found on the Internet.  Google search of my name shows more about me, and Brian Clement will validate that we knew each other at that time and know one another now. Please perform that due diligence in researching this article, which you have claimed is under construction. MaynardClark (talk) 00:53, 4 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Please read the Talk page guideline: the talk page is strictly for discussing article content and sourcing.  We cannot make changes based on what you say you witnessed, so it has no place on this talk page. I will ignore future comments you make along those lines.  My intention is not to be rude; if we met at a bar I would be happy to hear your stories.  They just have no value and no place here in Wikipedia.  Jytdog (talk) 00:55, 4 October 2016 (UTC)


 * About this; the content is sourced to the reference that you brought to the article in this dif. You brought that "backbay" ref and it seems OK to me.  If you believe the information in that reference is wrong please provide other reliable sources.  Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 01:10, 4 October 2016 (UTC)

Eydie Mae Hunsberger
Just to set the record straight, Eydie Mae Hunsberger, who is mentioned on the Ann Wigmore Wikipedia page, & who wrote the book (likely with a ghostwriter) "How I Conquered Cancer Naturally" circa 1975, apparently did not do so. According to State of California Death Certificate #8000 007211, Mrs. Hunsberger died at her home in Dulzura, San Diego County, at age 56, on June 24, 1984, of "Heart Failure due to Carcinmatosis due to Carcinoma of Breast". A copy of that death certificate is part of "Wheatgrass Therapy", an online blog by William T. Jarvis, Ph.D., easily accessable through whichever search engine you may choose. Then circa 1993, her book was republished by her husband just as if she were still alive, though at that point, Eydie Mae had been dead from the condition she claimed being cured of for about 8 years. Some stories I've run across claim that she died, but rather in "an accident", which was pure horsepuckey...unfortunately a common condition amongst "alternative health gurus/celebrities" I've noticed.173.228.71.128 (talk) 08:02, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

Brian Clement
Doesn't Brian Clement claim to have a university-based earned PhD? Doesn't mention of Brian Clement belong under the HHI article? MaynardClark (talk) 03:42, 4 October 2016 (UTC)
 * didn't know that article existed, thanks. I wikilinked it. I think that Clement and HHI are very much part of Wigmore's legacy.  Without her, they wouldn't exist. Jytdog (talk) 06:33, 4 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Perhaps very little of a 21st century world glued to the Internet would have a coherent account of what Wigmore did. Those who recall those times, encounters, personalities, and experiences personally would be more likely to retell it coherently. MaynardClark (talk) 19:36, 4 June 2017 (UTC)


 * I think that legacies exist through retelling, reliving, and other forms of recapitulation. IMO, the Wigmore legacy is more extended than that - specifically throughout South America and in the work of Gabriel Cousins (a psychiatrist) and the sometimes growing, sometimes shrinking raw foods movement which pays lipservice to what she taught.
 * Perhaps very little of a 21st century world glued to the Internet would have a coherent account of what Wigmore did. Those who recall those times, encounters, personalities, and experiences personally would be more likely to retell it coherently. MaynardClark (talk) 19:36, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

Joel Fuhrman I knew Dr. Joel Fuhrman when he was identified as a Natural Hygienist  (and thus a full vegan who was then a 'mostly raw' vegan). He, his wife, and I flew together on an airplane from Southern California after the 8th International Vegan Festival in San Diego (August 6-11, 1995), where I was program planner. Today, Dr. Fuhrman gives during his PBS fundraisers the excellent advice that "Salad is the main meal!"

Earliest Efforts with Raw Veganism

I seriously attempted an 'all raw' diet early in my vegetarian experience. Raw veganism is a wonderful weight loss diet, but during my foray into the 'natural hygiene' or Shelton's orthopathy dietary approach, I discovered that I wasn't going to attract many friends that way, let alone vegan friends. The cultural genre was just then escaping from the heavier high-protein grain-rich diets passed on through communes and soy experimentation. However, I managed to attend a number of Natural Hygiene conventions - in Connecticut and elsewhere.

Facing the Doubts of Other Vegans

When I founded the Boston Vegetarian Society, I was practicing food combining and eating a vegan diet that was largely raw. Other vegans either criticized it or merely noted it, and one long-time vegan friend even mocked some of the 'natural hygiene' theories of food combining. In part under social pressure, I migrated away from natural hygiene or a (primarily?) raw vegan diet, though (conversely) the practice of raw veganism seems to have grown during the 21st century.

Frederic Richard Chaffee Fred Chaffee, formerly a Seventh Day Adventist, and his wife, a German Catholic, made enormous contributions to my early practice of raw foods veganism, citing evidence for health benefits of a largely or entirely raw vegan dietary. Spatial separation alone complicated the deeply constructive friendship, so Fred's constructive nurturance diminished, and my raw veganism waned. Fred and his wife have both died by now, but Fred had been active in two local raw vegan social groups which claimed Ann Wigmore's work THROUGH the orthopathy tradition that included Herbert Shelton. Fred had served as an officer in both groups; some of those members were still living in their 90s until a year or two ago. I saw them buying vegetables at Boston's Haymarket.

David F. Kingsley

David F. Kingsley, a retired Professor of Human Health Sciences, admired Ann Wigmore. David founded the New Hippocrates Health Institute (NHHI) in Boston and served as its President and chief Health Officer of its Health Clinic, which he operated at One Shipyard Way in Medford Square, Medford, MA. The Clerk of NHHI was Mary Ann Sparks, a social worker, and the NHHI Treasurer was Roy Frank Kipp, JD, an attorney who had facilitated the incorporation. The three were all age peers.

David Kingsley was from Rochester, New York, where he had served the State University of New York until his retirement. Before his becoming vegetarian then vegan, Professor David F. Kingsley had suffered three heart attacks and his sister, Norma Kingsley, had been diagnosed with terminal cancer, for which he has sought 'any and all lifestyle correctives.' In that quest for deeper scientific understanding, Professor Kingsley found and migrated toward and tried to apply to his sister a vegan, totally plant-based diet devoid of any animal-derived foodstuffs, and then later became an advocate of the raw vegan diet.

Professor Kingsley also set a good example of vegan diet, worked out daily, served for one two-year term on the Board of the Boston Vegetarian Society, and suggested the development of a regional organization, the New England Vegetarian Society (NEVS), which local vegetarian societies (such as Boston Vegetarian Society) could join, and which would offer regional, strategic, and associational advantages, including holding regional weekend-long vegetarian (read vegan) conferences and a vegetarian food fair. The most visionary NEVS was not developed in New England, and the name sounded strangely like NEAVS, the New England Anti-Vivisection Society.

New Hippocrates Health Institute

I served on the Board of the New Hippocrates Health Institute and took a few ungraded, noncredit nutrition courses from Professor Kingsley, which he offered through NHHI. One of my tasks as an NHHI Board Member was to help Kingsley search for funding and sponsorship in the form of research grants and teaching contracts through a specialized grants library in Boston, Associated Grant Makers.

While the nutrition curriculum used and was based upon a standard modern nutrition text, which each student purchased (or was asked to purchase), NHHI favored raw vegan nutrition and held that uncooked plant foods are more hygienic and healthful than cooked plant foods. One eye-opener in the nutrition text which every nutrition student should know is that the professional practice of nutrition is concerned with appropriate foods, not only for the individual client being diagnosed and served through counsel and supervision, but also for the society and ecological economy where the client lives and works. Agricultural issues and their impacts on the world are important areas of study in human nutrition because they are the base, the context in which the supply of edible and advisable foods are drawn.

Our thinking about thinking about nutrition was that, in life, we learn to think inductively and that we are constantly integrating our learning and testing it experientially, and comparing it with the best knowledge we can access. We live near a vital urban academic complex where these topics are being actively researched, so proximity should inform our individual personal quests for understanding and should better inform and condition our practice of raw veganism. The growth of knowledge should make us smarter, wiser, and hopefully healthier raw vegans - or merely better vegans.

Viktoras Kulvinskas

Viktoras had an MS in pure math and worked in the Harvard data center at the time, doing something much more theoretical.

MIT honors

At MIT when I arrived in Cambridge for graduate study at Harvard were two campus vegetarian groups. The one run by Chinese biomedical research Chiu Nan Lai, was oriented toward rawfood veganism and at times leaned into an interest in the Ann Wigmore phenomneon as a curious innovation which was seen as worthy of further biochemical research. Dr. Chiu Nan Lai (a woman) moved to Texas as a postdoc and developed there a research and teaching career. She is known popularly for her 'natural gallstone remedy'!

MaynardClark (talk) 14:30, 4 October 2016 (UTC)
 * really, please read WP:TPG Jytdog (talk) 17:16, 4 October 2016 (UTC)


 * I asked if we could talk on the phone. Jytdog said that all comments should be posted in the talk page. Thus...

Now, if Jytdog wants to claim that Ann Wigmore would 'no longer exist' without Brian Clement, he should subject that claim to falsification tests by exploring the other legatees who continue(d) Wigmore's teaching, including the MIT alums and current biomedical researchers, including Chiu Nan Lai (in Texas). I'm not advocating for the teaching; my texts here have been descriptive of how that continuity has been evidenced by a number of relatively high-performing and well-credentialed persons. That's called an 'ad hominem' - but it also demonstrates that the work in question is not inconsiderable or insignificant. It seems to have operated as a hypothesis maker for a number of researchers who wanted to explore some of its underlying ideas or, putatively, insights. MaynardClark (talk) 18:15, 4 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Yes you did and yes i replied and please see my note above. This is Wikipedia.  We use reliable sources in Wikipedia as defined in WP:RS.  With regard to improving the article, all that matters is what reliable sources say.
 * the sources we already use in the article clearly connent Clement with Wigmore. What are reliable sources connecting these other people with her? That is the only useful question here. Jytdog (talk) 18:26, 4 October 2016 (UTC)
 * I'll look (indeed, I WILL look), but we're in a talk page, not the body of the article, and we can discuss the pins in what actually happened if they're relevant to evaluating the CLAIM (by Jytdog) that I mentioned (above). Surely one wants to look more like a historian, not merely a journalistic chronicler.  And Cousins is a key player, also. MaynardClark (talk) 18:34, 4 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Yes we are on a talk page in Wikipedia. These talk pages are for discussing improvements to the article based on reliable sources and the policies and guidelines.  That is all they are for.  When we work in WIkipedia we are editors   - the community chose that name with care.  We are not historians synthesizing our own research nor is this a place (in articles or on talk page) for editors to record their personal experiences or write down their thoughts on the general topic.  Editors summarize what reliable sources say; that is all they do here (which is much harder than it sounds). (if you don't understand this please see User:Jytdog) -- Jytdog (talk) 18:42, 4 October 2016 (UTC)

Early Life?
I was disappointed not to find an "Early life" section -- and astonished by the complete absence of any info whatsoever about her early life. But then I took a look at the edit history and found that there had in fact been an "Early life" section up until a few weeks ago, when it was removed in its entirety because the details came from primary sources. I am posting that material here in hopes that somebody will endeavor to find proper sourcing for whatever can be verified.

As things stand, there is no validation of her date of birth, nor any mention of her birth name or her parents names, much less any basis for referring to her as "Lithuanian-American". Regards, Anomalous+0 (talk) 11:03, 9 March 2019 (UTC)

Early life  Wigmore was born Anna Marie Warapicki in Lithuania on March 4, 1909 to Antanas (1877–1959) and Anna (1882–?) Warapicki. Antanas emigrated to America in 1908, settling in Middleboro, Massachusetts, where he first worked as a laborer in a shoe manufacturing company, then later as a truck driver for a bakery during Wigmore's American teen-age years. Anna followed her husband five years later, aboard the ship Erlangen, arriving at Ellis Island on June 16, 1913. After World War I, Anna Marie, then 13, and her brother, Mykola, age 15, (both surnames erroneously entered on the ship's passenger log as "Varapickis") accompanied by an uncle, arrived at Ellis Island on December 9, 1922, on the SS America to join their parents and younger sister Helen, born February 19, 1921, in Middleboro. The 1930 Federal Census found Anna Marie living in Bristol, Massachusetts, and working as a hospital maid under the name of Anna Warap.