Talk:Anna Sorokin/Archive 1

Anna Delvey Wikipedia Records
Anna Delvey was indicted, not charged with multiple felonies and one misdemeanor, so that was my mistake. She is also innocent until proven guilty, but is being charged with attempted Grand Larceny in the First Degree, a class C felony, two counts, Grand Larceny in the Second Degree, a class C felony, three counts, Grand Larceny in the Third Degree, a class D felony, one count, and Theft of Services, class A misdemeanor, one count.

There is enough evidence of these crimes I think it should be made clear upfront that this woman has been involved in criminal activities. It's her entire claim to fame.

I have had three or more revisions to this page removed, so I'm hoping someone can make sense of the information I am providing here and we can have an accurate description of this person along with perhaps a more rich, and full detailed Wikipedia page for her.

According to a New York District Attorney “This defendant’s alleged criminal conduct spans from check fraud to six-figure stolen loans and includes schemes that resulted in a free trip to Morocco and travel on private planes.”

I think what's most strange about her short Wikipedia bio, which appears when anyone searches her name on Google, is that nowhere does it mention the fact that she's scammed people out of hundreds of thousands of dollars or that the reason she is known to the public has to do with criminal charges. Is there a reason that this isn't being included?

"Anna Sorokin, better known as Anna Delvey, is a Russian-German woman who was involved in the socialite scene in Manhattan." This is the Wikipedia result that appears on Google when searching Anna Delvey. Seriously...?

When I added the fact that Anna committed check-fraud this was also taken off of the main description more than once. I'm guessing this is due to her being innocent until proven guilty, but this fact is verifiable with the New York District Attorney.

She's not in jail for nothing..

Astro7770 (talk) 18:15, 31 October 2018 (UTC)
 * The article already includes a "Arrest and Fame" section. What's the problem here? The article is not going to assert the claims of the of DA in Wikipedia's voice. "Innocent until proven guilty" means just that; we can't call it a "fact" that anyone committed anything, unless they are convicted of the crime. See WP:BLPCRIME. Suffusion of Yellow (talk) 18:57, 31 October 2018 (UTC)

Con artist description
I tried to describe Anna Delvey as a con artist, and user SoWhy removed that description and proceeded to remove other con artist related categories. Should a German lawyer (user:SoWhy) really be modifying the page of a con artist who also was previously employed by a German public relations firm? Also, a con artist doesn't have to be charged with a crime to be described as a con artist... See the New York and Vanity Fair article. For example, the characters in film Ocean's 11 are con artists, but they may not have been charged with crimes in the various cons they committed. I don't see how being a con artist and being charged with a crime are entirely related.Smellyshirt5 (talk) 15:56, 7 January 2019 (UTC)
 * I fail to see how my job or nationality have anything to do with it unless you believe all Germans know each other and all German lawyers must work for said firm? I gave you the reason for removal, it's the policy at WP:SUSPECT. A con artist is per dictionary definition "A person who defrauds or swindles others after first gaining their trust" (see also definitions by Merriam-Webster, Cambridge Dictionary and Collings for example that all amount to the same). Delvey is accused of being a con artist but like all those accused of a crime she is innocent until proven guilty. That has not happened. That other sources do not follow this basic standard is not a reason to ignore our core policies. On a side note, I cannot find the word "con artist" being used in New York or Vanity Fair (okay, once in the latter but in a direct quote). Regards So  Why  16:08, 7 January 2019 (UTC)
 * One doesn't have to be convicted of a crime to be considered a con artist. Some sort of conundrum there. And no, I don't think that all Germans know each other. In any case, it impedes my addition of Anna Delvey to the List of con artists article. Perhaps you could add a different German con artist to that page? Thanks, Smellyshirt5 (talk) 17:14, 7 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Well, since the very definition is "someone who swindles" people, I would argue the opposite but how about we ask for a third opinion on it? That way we can get a neutral editor involved. As for the unrelated part, I think de:Adele Spitzeder would make a good addition to en-wiki in general, seeing as this was probably the first time a ponzi scheme was used by anyone as far as recorded history goes. I'll start a rough translation (look for it at Draft:Adele Spitzeder) but I probably need to research some references before it can be used. Regards So  Why  18:06, 7 January 2019 (UTC)

I agree that she qualifies as a con-artist, regardless of criminal conviction. Genetikbliss (talk) 03:39, 18 January 2019 (UTC)


 * This issue has already been resolved elsewhere on this page, but we don't need to treat it as a precedent of any particular kind. All we need to do is consult WP:BLPCRIME. At the present time, she is not well known for anything apart from these accusations and she has not been convicted of a crime.  A con artist is, by definition, a person who tricks or cheats people by persuading them that something is true when it is not true.  At this point, she has not been proven to have done that, therefore she is not a con artist.  That, together with the fact that Wikipedia is not a soap box, means that it's inappropriate to describe her as a con artist, regardless of however much anybody might prefer to call her one.Twistlethrop (talk) 14:21, 10 April 2019 (UTC)

Oct. 30 court appearance (would be convicted later)
I was seeing that, before today, as her next court appearance. Did that take place? I see"convicted"; when did that kick in? Carlm0404 (talk) 00:13, 31 October 2018 (UTC)
 * It didn't as far as I can determine. The edit has been reverted as unsourced. Not even the unreliable Daily Mail claims she is convicted, just that another court hearing took place. Regards So  Why  10:54, 31 October 2018 (UTC)

Since the above exchange, information about Dec. 18 court appearance has been added. Carlm0404 (talk) 13:15, 25 December 2018 (UTC)

News arriving today says she is now, INDEED, convicted. Carlm0404 (talk) 01:15, 26 April 2019 (UTC)

Contradiction about location
Intro: "Sorokin is incarcerated at Albion Correctional Facility."

Later: "Sorokin was incarcerated at Rikers Island during the trial, but is currently incarcerated at Bedford Hills Correctional Facility as of May 15, 2019."73.219.103.208 (talk) 14:44, 16 December 2019 (UTC)burgo


 * Probably a problem with outdated information. I'll fix it. Regards So  Why  15:11, 16 December 2019 (UTC)

immigration (RUS-->GER) ?
"The family moved to Germany in 2007" 1) Why? 2) How? (It was+is not possible/easy for normal Russians.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:16b8:2aec:5400:1df:2cb8:3e8e:738 (talk) 20:54, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

Some russian troll user says the nypost is not a reliable source for life story rights of $320,000 from netflix
Some guy named Schazjmd undid some source from the NYPost, which claims Anna Sorokin was paid $320,000 for her life story rights. He claims the NYPost is not reliable. I uhm, would say that that is probably not true. But anyway here's the citation. He sounds kind of like a Russian hacker to me based on the immediacy of the removal of my edit and the way I was logged out when I first tried to make the edit... but who knows? source: Weird stuff man... Smellyshirt5 (talk) 00:19, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
 * The Post is a tabloid, and while all tabloids aren't intrinsically unreliable, we do generally avoid using them as references. --Ef80 (talk) 15:17, 12 February 2021 (UTC)

Name Sorokin/Sorokina
Source is for "Sorokina" but the article and media use "Sorokin". Do we have, for example, a source she changed her surname to "Sorokin"? (BTW I am aware of the linguistic relation between Sorokin and Sorokina.) Thanks, WikiHannibal (talk) 10:08, 10 May 2019 (UTC)
 * I don't think a source is needed for a change because there probably was no official proceedings. The -a suffix of Russian names is usually not kept when Russians move to western countries (like Germany). Afaik (family law is not my area of expertise though), since the German naming system does not have different suffixes for men and women, German law does not allow married Russian immigrants to keep two different names (basically) and instead uses the male form throughout, so if you choose to apply German law upon naturalization, you can remove parts of the name that the German law does not have, see Art. 47 of the introductory law to the German Civil Code. I assume that was what happened here. However, we don't need a source for that change. The name "Sorokin" is the WP:COMMONNAME that all sources use, so we use it as well. Why she dropped the -a is not relevant, is it? Regards So  Why  12:35, 10 May 2019 (UTC)

Because there is no actual info about her German citizenship or doublecitizenship (Russian and German which are allowed in both countries) nor her passport ID, and because her born ID is Russian, it is correct to use Sorokina as her surname, because it is female inclination of this surname, when Sorokin - is a male variant of this surname.

It is wrong practice to justify inclination of surname just because it was used in media and press, because they can actually reprint the mistake from the source. If you will read press on eastern slavic languages they use Sorokina even on her German time period. We should use fact as her official ID documentations or language norms of language of origin. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Капеллан Андрей (talk • contribs) 15:14, 24 February 2021 (UTC)


 * No, we use the name the sources use. That Eastern Slavic sources use "Sorokina" is most likely because they recognize an Eastern Slavic name for a female subject. However, basically no other language sources use this form as far as I can tell, nor did official sources (like the district attorney of Manhattan). Even The Moscow Times used "Sorokin".
 * I added a source confirming that she is a German national as well. German law does not recognize female inclinations (see above). There is no source that states that she still is a Russian citizen, so assuming it would be original research. On a side note, German citizenship law included a provision until 19 December 2014 that one had to decide between two citizenships until their 23rd birthday (see de:Deutsche_Staatsangehörigkeit on German Wikipedia). Sorokin's 23rd birthday took place while this law was in effect (30 January 2014), so she would have had to decide between German and Russian citizenship at this point. So even if we were to use original research, it would lead us to her only being German at least since 2014. That would also explain why she was extradited to Germany and not Russia after her prison sentence. Regards So  Why  15:45, 24 February 2021 (UTC)


 * Are you sure she has German citizenship? I mean how could she pass one, when due to procedure she should have been in Germany for 7 - 8 years and pass the test to end the procedure.

She left Russia somewhere in 2007 and left Germany in 2013. Example: https://www.germany-visa.org/immigration-residence-permit/german-citizenship/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Капеллан Андрей (talk • contribs) 16:23, 24 February 2021 (UTC)
 * I know that reliable sources (such as Sky News) say she is a German national. How she came to be one, is secondary. For example, Art 116 of the German Basic Law grants immediate citizenship to descendants of Germans who were expatriated by the Nazi regime on request and § 10 StAG allows naturalization for children even before eight years are over if one parent has a right to citizenship. But again, that is all speculation. We don't use our own conclusions to decide whether she is German or Russian or both but what reliable sources state. And those I found that mention nationality, all say she is German, e.g. "As a German citizen..." (NBC News), "Ms Sorokin, a German citizen..." (The Independent), "Because Ms Sorokin is a German citizen..." (The Evening Standard), "In a statement US Immigration and Customs Enforcement said Sorokin was a German citizen..." (The Telegraph). Personally, I think if ICE says she is German, they probably have a good reason to say so. PS: Please remember to sign your comments with ~ so that people know you made them. Also, the template does only work if you signed your post. Regards  So  Why  18:44, 24 February 2021 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 23:07, 11 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Cyrus Vance Junior.jpg

Russian mob reference
The Sky News article doesn’t mention the Russian mob yet it’s used for the citation. Suggest removal Matt Zero (talk) 16:31, 20 February 2022 (UTC)


 * @Soul phire: Good catch, I removed that. In the future, feel free to make such changes yourself since we cannot have negative material about living people without sources. Regards So  Why  16:35, 20 February 2022 (UTC)

Requested move 14 February 2022

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 

The result of the move request was: not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Sceptre (talk) 17:19, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

Anna Sorokin → Anna Delvey – WP:COMMONNAME, in light of Inventing Anna's debut. Google search results are currently 63 million for Delvey vs. 30 million for Sorokin, with multiple article responding to the series taking Delvey as the primary name, with even an exception from the New York Times  acknolwedging she is "better known" as Delvey. SItuation clearly changed substantially from rationale at time of 2019 page move. U-Mos (talk) 07:04, 14 February 2022 (UTC)


 * Oppose. Almost all articles contain both names, so search results are meaningless. Her real name is "Sorokin" and as far as I can tell, she has stopped using "Delvey" completely. That a documentary has currently swamped the search engines with this name does not change the facts and the reasons for the prior move. Even the NYT article you mention explicitly uses the name "Sorokin" throughout. Just like with Octomom, the redirect can take care of the alias (see also WP:NPOVNAME). Regards So  Why  08:53, 14 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Oppose per SoWhy: the stats are stacked and stick up like stacks.  SN54129  10:02, 14 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Support Per our common name guidelines. Anna Delvey appears to be the most commonly used name for the subject in reliable sources, even before the new miniseries. If we just look at results from last year and earlier, even the articles that use both names overwhelmingly choose Delvey for the title. That one is her real name and one is her fake one isn't relevant here -- what matters is usage in reliable sources, which prefers the proposed title (and is what this article was called before an undiscussed move).--Yaksar (let's chat) 20:09, 14 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Most reliable sources might use "Delvey" in the title because they are reporting on the crimes she committed while using that name but then use "Sorokin" consistently, e.g.     ("Anna Sorokin (right), then known as Anna Delvey"), . I don't think there is a clear-cut trend that allows us to assume one name is the more common name than the other. The COMMONNAME guideline is intended for subjects for which sources rarely, if ever, use the real name (e.g. Bill Clinton, Bono, Willy Brandt), not subjects which used an alias for a time but are constantly also referred to by their real name. Regards  So  Why  08:58, 15 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Oppose per SoWhy. The majority of sources refer to her as "Sorokin" and list "Delvey" as an alias. There will be lots of cookie-cutter "who is the person from Inventing Anna then?" articles at the moment, but that doesn't change the fact that "Delvey" isn't the name she is best known by / reported on under overall. firefly  ( t · c ) 11:40, 15 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Still her very clear common name. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:28, 16 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Evidence for this? U-Mos (talk) 21:14, 16 February 2022 (UTC)
 * SoWhy has laid it out very clearly above. -- Necrothesp (talk) 11:47, 17 February 2022 (UTC)
 * SoWhy directly stated their viewpoint that neither name is the most common as part of their rationale. U-Mos (talk) 18:33, 17 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Please reread. -- Necrothesp (talk) 12:53, 18 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Even if I had, it would not make a difference because if both names were equally common, we should default to the legal name, not the pseudonym. Regards So  Why  20:08, 18 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Yes, your rationale is clearly laid out and I don't object to it., on the other hand, has made an entirely different argument and offered zero supporting evidence for it, ignoring rather than engaging with the rationale for the request, which any closing editor should be aware of. U-Mos (talk) 20:11, 19 February 2022 (UTC)
 * No, I really haven't "made an entirely different argument". -- Necrothesp (talk) 09:08, 21 February 2022 (UTC)


 * Oppose Seems obvious, even a cursory look shows this is the name she is known consistently by in major sources, qv., with Delvey as her alias. Mramoeba (talk) 21:21, 16 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Neutral - I don't care really what we do but Wikipedia needs to be consistent. One one hand we have Meghan, Duchess of Sussex and on the other we have Kanye West. Do we want the legal name or the common name? Let's just set a standard and stick with it. Michael-Moates (talk) 00:25, 17 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Note that WP:COMMONNAME is met with both of those examples! -- Necrothesp (talk) 11:47, 17 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Disagree. Meghan Markle is not known as Meghan, Duchess of Sussex. If anything, she is known as Meghan Markle or the Dutches of Sussex. Michael-Moates (talk) 22:01, 19 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME which states Wikipedia "generally prefers the name that is most commonly used" not "generally prefers the name that was most commonly used".Pontificalibus 07:56, 17 February 2022 (UTC)
 * No one's suggested that Delvey is a historically used name with less common usage today - if anything the opposite. How does your statement lead you to favour Sorokin as the article title? U-Mos (talk) 18:33, 17 February 2022 (UTC)


 * Support Delvey is the most common name. Even if Sorokin was “equally common” as other states above the notion that we should default to the legal name is not based on policy. Feed  back  15:53, 19 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Comment this is a BLP, and the question is not what her common name was during the events of Inventing Anna, it is what her common name is now. User:力 (powera, π,  ν ) 02:18, 20 February 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.