Talk:Anne Lister

BBC TV programmes
What can we get from these: The Secret Diaries of Miss Anne Lister; Revealing Anne Lister. -- Red rose64 (talk) 20:41, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Wow, thanks for putting these up. I can't watch them right now, but will be sure to in the next day or two. I'll keep an eye out for other facts. --TurquoiseThreads (talk) 06:08, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

Age at Death
In life section it says "She died aged 50 of a fever ", in the information box on the right it says she died aged 49. Which is correct? If the date of her death is correct she dies aged 49. 10 June 2010 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.156.59.47 (talk) 13:23, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
 * When I've watched Revealing Anne Lister (which I recorded last week) I shall check. -- Red rose64 (talk) 16:17, 10 June 2010 (UTC)


 * 49 is what the tour guide says at Shibden Hall. Also, Anne Walker did not inherit Shibden from Anne Lister. Anne Lister's will passed the property to relatives but included a codicil stating that Anne Walker could live at Shibden should she survive Anne Lister. Anne Walker's will had a reciprocal arrangement.OldDerbeian (talk)

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Venereal disease
From www.annelister.co.uk/annes-lovers/:
 * Mariana Lawton (née Belcombe)
 * [...]
 * Aside from jealousy, Mariana’s marriage had other consequences for Anne. In 1820 [Mariana’s husband] Charles contracted a venereal disease, apparently from a servant, and Anne caught the incurable “venereal taint” from Mariana, with which she remained infected all her life.

--77.3.43.0 (talk) 15:55, 5 March 2019 (UTC)

Authenticity
Have the diaries that have been published- source material and published decryptions- been authenticated as hers? This would be useful in providing evidence for claims made in the article but I don’t see that anyone’s seen the need, I hope I’m wrong. ES Schissel | Sound the Note! 12:51, 18 May 2019 (UTC)


 * See the article section entitled Research. --Mervyn (talk) 11:11, 22 May 2019 (UTC)

Definition of "Spouse"
A spouse is someone to whom you are legally married. See the definition here. Lister and Walker were not legally married, therefore she was her partner or lover or girlfriend, but not her spouse. Anna (talk) 20:52, 13 July 2019 (UTC)


 * The definition you yourself cite does NOT include the word "legally." A marriage can be recognized, for example, by one religion but not another, or in one jurisdiction but not another.  If these two considered themselves to be married, and referred to each other as spouses, then that fits the general definition of a common-law marriage.  Critterkeeper (talk) 16:13, 15 July 2019 (UTC)
 * I'll note for future readers of this talk page that this controversy is still ongoing, specifically about whether to use the |spouse or |partner tag in the lead infobox. Suriname0 (talk) 20:50, 17 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Yes, Template:Infobox person gives no advice about common law marriage. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:54, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

Joshua Horner painting of Anne Lister (1791-1840)
I believe the date of the portrait of Anne Lister attributed to Joshua Horner as circa 1830 is inaccurate.

There is no official known record, yet, that states the exact date/year. However, the official wording from Shibden Hall Museum and it's curator, Angela Clare, is that the painting was done posthumously circa 1840s. I asked Angela Clare via her pen name (Clara Barley) Twitter account @EndeavourFilms. Here is the Twitter thread including her response – https://twitter.com/RMFuQ/status/1254628652110606336?s=19

I would recommend 1830 be reviewed and reconsidered at editor/admin discretion. With the popularity of Anne Lister growing since the original airing of Gentleman Jack Series 1 in 2019 and Series 2 filming scheduled to begin sometime in 2020, post–COVID–19 lockdown, I believe it is important to correct this potential error.

I look forward to comments on this topic. Kimdorris (talk) 19:10, 27 April 2020 (UTC)


 * I dont think that c.1830 is reliable referenced so could probably be removed, I believe the portrait is catalogued as "Undated". MilborneOne (talk) 22:40, 28 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Thank you, MilborneOne, for your edit last year. c. 1830 was again added. I've removed the offending copy and reverted caption to previous state. Wish people would read the talk page now and then. T. Superhero (@/#) 08:41, 15 August 2021 (UTC)


 * Strikethrough link to Tweet (above). T. Superhero (@/#) 00:13, 6 October 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected page?
I was wondering what other editors think about perhaps making this article semi-protected. I see that every so often someone comes in and vandalizes the article likely due to Anne Lister's status as a prominent figure in lesbian history. There is at least one user that I know of personally who is anonymous and would be prevented from making edits on this article. However, I believe the benefit outweighs the cost in this situation. Look forward to your feedback. Kimdorris (talk) 09:30, 6 July 2020 (UTC)


 * There seems to be very low level of vandalism on the article. If ever protection is needed we can scramble it fast. She is not famous enough to make her a big target. The main aim of WP is to make it editable to anyone. This is the default position unless there are exceptional circs. Anna (talk) 18:51, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

Education
''Between 1801 and 1805, Lister was educated at home by the Reverend George Skelding, the vicar of Market Weighton, and at the age of seven, she was sent to a school run by a Mrs. Hagues and a Mrs. Chettle in Agnesgate, Ripon. On her visits to her aunt Anne and uncle James at Shibden Hall, the Misses Mellin gave her lessons. In 1804, Anne Lister was sent to the Manor House School in York...''
 * It's all the wrong way about. By 1801 she was ten. Also the dates of 1804 and 1805 are overlapping. Valetude (talk) 16:41, 12 March 2021 (UTC)

Failure?
...her biographer Angela Steidele suggests her trips in later life were also a way to "evade the self realisation that she had failed at everything she set her hand to".
 * But nothing in the article suggests failure at anything. She comes across as a strong and masterful character. Some support needed for this statement, I think. Valetude (talk) 18:29, 12 March 2021 (UTC)

Dubiousness in language use and relying on certain sources
Valetude:
 * I'd like to offer a few friendly suggestions/recommendations, if I may.
 * Lister was from a prosperous landowning family... 
 * The Listers, specifically Anne's immediate family from Market Weighton, were not prosperous in that they were considered the poorer side of the Lister family. Refer to Female Fortune by Liddington p. 24 for starters. Here it states modest property and inadequate in reference to her income.
 * Additionally the Listers of Shibden Hall, Uncle James and Aunt Anne as well as Uncle Joseph and Aunt Mary, were considered lesser landed gentry. There are numerous references mentioning how Anne was constantly scraping by, borrowing money, or otherwise scheming (economizing) to stretch every pound, shilling, and pence. That is until Uncle James died in 1826 and Anne inherited Shibden; however, she had to share the income from the estate with her father and Aunt Anne until they both died in 1836. She had access to money from Ann Walker's estate to pay for their travels and to make improvements on the Shibden Estate. These facts were brought to light during the several court cases over Ann Walker's will, the Lunacy Commission, and the civil suits among the various parties involved because Anne Lister and Ann Walker had named each other to a Life Interest upon each other's death.
 * Reading previous comments, I would strongly recommend anyone avoiding or at least fact checking anything mentioned in Steidele's book. Steidele's account of Anne Lister was pulled wholesale from other writers/researchers and is heavily biased. She did not bother to read the actual diaries themselves. The reputation of her book has become rather dubious since the transcription project began and hundreds of fans of the Sally Wainwright show began digging in the archives. Just a few friendly tips from someone involved in the wider research community over the last couple of years. Kimdorris (talk) 22:02, 16 March 2021 (UTC)


 * Thank you, Kim. In your honour, I have substituted 'relatively comfortable' for 'prosperous', though I feel that they could strictly be described as a prosperous family, even though she herself wasn't. As for the unreliable biography you mention, I was, of course, questioning its veracity. Valetude (talk) 22:21, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
 * PS. You realise, of course, that this was in the lede section, where we summarise the article. Plenty of room further down for details and nuances. Valetude (talk) 22:28, 16 March 2021 (UTC)


 * Valetude – If you feel "prosperous" is accurate, then certainly use that. As long as you're aware the current evidence and published research doesn't quite support that claim. And anticipate another editor scrutinizing the use of the word and probably changing it at some point. And, yes, I was aware you were questioning Steidele's work. I was attempting to support your remarks. Again, yes, details can be expanded upon in subsequent sections.
 * I'd also like to add that because I've spent a significant amount of time in the past working on Ann Walker's page from creation to it's present state, I try not to edit Anne Lister's page very often as it certainly needs significant re-working. My interests have turned to other topics. I'm happy to share my research knowledge, but have moved on and I'm exploring other projects. That said, feel free to contact me on my talk page or send me an email through Wikipedia if you need help or have a question. Cheers, Kimdorris (talk) 06:06, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

Update copy in AFD-Merge box?
Any chance/way to update the copy in the AFD-Merge box at the top of the page to mention that Ann Walker article exists? It was a replacement, in a manner of speaking, for Ann Walker (died 1854). It seems the message at the top, while necessary and required, is out of date. I'd update it myself if I knew where to do so and knew that the change wouldn't get me banned or temporarily suspended. Thank you. T. Superhero (@/#) 08:49, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

Concerns about lead
Posting comments to generate feedback and to discuss concerns.

I made a few changes to the lead section because I had serious concerns with some of the promotional description of Lister's life in the lead section, primarily because the description was inaccurate based on documented research by Whitbread and Liddington, and confirmed by Choma, Hughes, Euler, and others – the primary, reputable scholars of Anne Lister in modern time. Please see my comments (as Kimdorris) above as well as cited references in this article as well as the published article about Ann Walker.

Despite my objections to the promotion of certain ideas that may have been believed to be true, but have since been shown to be exaggerations or made up stories (urban legends) not backed by evidence, or sensationalistic notions purported by some writers who are heavily biased against certain historical figures, I've left most of the lead intact as it is concise and well written.

The following points provide some background for the few edits I made to the lead. Please feel free to discuss openly as my only objective is to provide accurate information for readers seeking a truthful biography of Lister and those who shared their lives with her.
 * Lister's family were minor landed gentry with a very long history in the area. At the time of Lister's life her family were one of the oldest in West Yorkshire. They were not well off compared to the significantly (by many orders of magnitude) more wealthy merchant families in the area. The Listers were obviously better off than their tenant farmers, but by no means considered truly prosperous by scholars.
 * Lister was given the dubious nickname of "Gentleman Jack" many years after her death.
 * Her "longest relationship" was with Mariana Lawton (n&eacute;e Belcombe) not Ann Walker. Lister and Lawton were together for nearly two decades. They were together from shortly after Lister's time at the Manor House School until early to late 1834, depending on how one defines "together". Lister and Walker began courting in early 1832, exchanged vows (10th) and rings (27th) in February 1834 and took the Eucharist together on Easter Sunday (30th March) which they considered equivalent to a wedding blessed by God. Walker finally moved into Shibden Hall in late 1834. Lister and Walker were together for about 8.5 years – in the most liberal definition of 'together' – until Lister's death on 22 September 1840. Perhaps Paddykraut can better confirm when Lister and Lawton started their relationship in relation to the Manor House School timeframe?
 * There are other less contentious issues with the lead, but I will leave those for discussion at a later time. I should re-read the full article again with the latest revisions.

Your constructive feedback is welcome and appreciated. T. Superhero (@/#) 11:25, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

Illustration removed - no obvious relevance, artist maybe incorrect
I propose removing this picture from the article to this page because as far as the text of the article shows, no James Lister in her family was involved in her life. He did not share a Christian name with either her father or brothers. I also suspect the artist named may be incorrect as this James Lister died in 1826 (see in file) in which year Joshua Horner was only 14.Cloptonson (talk) 18:11, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

&mdash;
 * Disagree on removal – This portrait of James Lister (1748-1826) is of Anne Lister (1791-1840)'s uncle who, along with her aunt (and namesake) Anne Lister (1765-1836), was her godparent. James Lister (1748-1826) was the owner of Shibden Hall, 1788-1826, and the person from whom Anne Lister (1791-1840) inherited the estate. Anne had this portrait of her uncle painted posthumously. I have seen Horner's birthyear listed as both 1811 and 1812. Horner's father, John Horner (1784-1867), was also a painter. This portrait is undated as far as I am aware and I do not recall what year Anne had this portrait commissioned. Anne permanently moved into Shibden Hall in 1815. This portrait is on display in Shibden's Great Hall along with portraits of Anne Lister (1765-1836), Anne Lister (1791-1840), and other key Shibden Hall inhabitants.
 * Agree on relevance – I agree that the relevance of this image is unclear. However, I have stated the relevant facts above. Further references are needed to substantiate these facts.
 * Recommend revert and revise – I recommend this change be reverted and the article be updated to include the facts I've noted above with appropriate references to demonstrate its relevance for inclusion in this article.
 * Other Sources of information
 * Calderdale Museums has a page on Anne Lister (1791-1840) and another on Shibden Hall in which they detail some of the above facts;
 * The West Yorkshire Archive Service has a blog in which they detail Anne's early years when she spent time at Shibden with her aunt and uncle;
 * Historic England also has a page on Shibden Hall and another on Shibden Park and Garden;
 * More information on this specific portrait (James Lister by Joshua Horner) can be found at Art UK and is attributed to Calderdale Metropolitan Borough Council, the council that owns Shibden Hall and Shibden Park and Garden today.
 * I hope this new information helps to address your concerns above. – T. Superhero (@/#) 00:56, 6 September 2021 (UTC)


 * Thank you. Had the inheritance link been made explicit in the caption the relevance of the subject would be more obvious.Cloptonson (talk) 06:00, 6 September 2021 (UTC)


 * I have now reverted the edit and added to the description James Lister (From whom Anne Lister Inherited the estate) by Joshua Horner (1812–1884) Pauseypaul (talk) 17:49, 26 September 2021 (UTC)


 * Agree. Glad to have helped. T. Superhero (@/#) 10:14, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

Dubious sources and language -- Revisited
Strongly recommend the Death section be completely reworded and any reference to insane/insanity with respect to Ann Walker be rephrased. While Walker was technically found unfit to make her own decision regarding her finances (in 1840s to 1850s), including making a will, and the very commission that made this ruling was called the Insanity Commission (mid-19th century legal terminology), this view is no longer supported in the research community. The source for these statements, whom I will not specifically name as they are a highly respected and published researcher of Anne Lister (and not Ann Walker), is biased and uninformed about Lister's life after her marriage to Walker. Borthwick Institute, the source cited, has based their statements about Ann Walker on this biased and outdated view. This source (Borthwick Institute) should also be deemed unreliable and therefore unusable. I strongly recommend removing Borthwick Institute as a source unless corroborating research can be supported by unbiased, published research from Jill Liddington, Anne Choma, or more recent published, academic researchers like Patricia Hughes, et al. I hope it goes without saying that Angela Steidele's book is extremely unreliable as well. And for Lister's earlier life with Marianna Lawton, Helena Whitbread is a good source.

Personal note: I know the above paragraph may be read by some as speculative and libelous and perhaps unsupported by reliable sources. Please know I've spent a significant amount of time reading, re-reading, debating and verifying my assertions. It would take me weeks to explain the specifics that have lead me to these conclusions. Know that I am sincere about these claims and have made them in good faith. I hope at the very least what I've said gives you pause to reconsider before adding misleading statements from non neutral POVs.

Please feel free to comment on my talk page if you need further information with respect to Ann Walker, reliable and unreliable sources, or potentially dubious content. Thanks for listening to my pleas. T. Superhero (@/#) 01:07, 6 October 2021 (UTC)