Talk:Annette Kellerman

Dates Incorrect?
The date for when Annette Kellerman's husband was born is listed as 1912 but in the body of the article it says the two were married in November of 1912. How is it that he could be born the same year they married? I think his date of birth is incorrect (it would make her 25 years his superior) but I'm unsure about the correct date.212.243.64.70 (talk) 15:14, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Where is his birth date listed?? I can't find it. If you are referring to the dates next to his name in the infobox, they are the years they were married (1912 until Kellerman's death in 1975). Loopla (talk) 05:34, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Roosevelt
According to List of poliomyelitis survivors, Kellerman met with President Roosevelt and "devised some exercises for him." This is probably notable enough to mention. (That and the fact that there is a significant gap in this article between the 1920s and 1970s.) -- Mûĸĸâĸûĸâĸû 07:34, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

Proper spelling of name?
I've noticed that in many older sources, her last name is spelled with two Ns (Kellermann). Which is the correct spelling, then; Kellerman or Kellermann? Amvros (talk) 23:18, 13 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Footnote 5 on p. 33/34 of this source says the 2-n version was a rare spelling of her surname, which usually appeared in the 1-n version.
 * And yet, the Australian Dictionary of Biography entry, which is one of the main sources for our article, spells it with 2 n's throughout, without even acknowledging the 1-n version ever existed, let alone being almost universally found.
 * Kellermann Close, Holt, ACT is spelt with 2 n's. I assume this was named after Annette, as all the streets in the suburb of Holt were named after noted Australian sportspeople, and I don't know of any other sporty Kellermanns.
 * Curious. Needs further investigating.  --   Jack of Oz   [your turn]  00:28, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Curious, all right. I've been doing a bit of research, and found the two-n spelling in this NY Times review of A Daughter of the Gods, this vintage poster and an article written by AK herself for the Washington Post.
 * Now I'm wondering when the one-n spelling came around, and if it's correct. Amvros (talk) 05:14, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
 * There's this page, under construction, which purports to contain the beginning of her own life story. But straightaway I see a problem – she says she was born in "Sidney" – so any idea of getting some insight into the correct spelling of her surname seems a forlorn hope.
 * Then there's the Annette Kellerman Aquatic Centre, in her birthplace Marrickville, whose History page at least acknowledges the 2 spellings. It says the ADB calls her Kellermann (as I noted above), but her birth certificate gives a different date, place and spelling (Kellerman).   Annette Kellermann (ADB) was the daughter of Frederick Kellerman.  It also says her life ended in 1974, when in fact it was 1975.  It also says their Wellness Centre opened in "Janurary" [sic] 2011.  What to make of this effort by Chrys Meader, Marrickville Historian – you tell me.
 * IMDB knows her only as Kellerman. --   Jack of Oz   [your turn]  05:45, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm very late to this party, but given the period in question, there are many chances of misspelling and typos. My own surname went through a transformation at some point. Probably due to illiteracy. Indeed the spelling of my home village was changed in my lifetime by a mistake by sign writers for British Rail. PeterM88 (talk) 09:06, 3 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Even later to the party: She spells her name with two "N"s (see her by-line in the Washington Post article). That is what should be preferred here.  It's the name a person goes through life with that defines them.  This should be moved to the two "N" spelling.   GenQuest  "Talk to Me" 12:42, 25 October 2015 (UTC)
 * In support of many of the above, and I hope this is final - this BBC article explains that her family changed the name 'Kellerman' from the original German 'Kellermann' early in her life. So "Kellerman" is now correct. Onanoff (talk) 10:27, 20 February 2016 (UTC)
 * She signed her name as Kellermann on memorabilia. Per COMMONNAME, she knew her name, even if some news services screw it up in the research department. See this photo for instance.  Regards,  GenQuest  "Talk to Me" 00:59, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

Water Tank Accident
Why is there no longer a mention of Kellerman's accident when she was filming a movie? That was a significant part of her life and how it affected her physically. I could of sworn there used to be mention of this accident in this article-- Can anyone shed light on why none of this part of her life is included here? Thanks 69.249.125.97 (talk) 18:35, 25 June 2015 (UTC) BrattySoul

-update- I actually found a link to a Melbourne newspaper(The Argus) to the water tank accident that was during the filming of Neptune's Daughter in Bermuda at an Aquarium on Agar's Island Feb 3, 1914 as reported from New York-

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/7268040

I also found an article from a Bermuda news source that this paticular film was considereed 'lost' and now found in 2010 with the story behind the reported 'exhibition' being given by Ms. Kellermann, however it states it was her and the director injured as they were working on a 'fight scene':

http://bernews.com/2010/12/video-neptunes-daughter-resurfaces/

I also found an Silent Movie page that advises there was a legal battle over her contract and ability to begin her film career. https://wfpp.cdrs.columbia.edu/pioneer/ccp-annette-kellerman/

There was no other info, unsure how to add this to the article or if noteworthy. 69.249.125.97 (talk) 20:08, 25 June 2015 (UTC)BS

Good source
There is more about her in this good BBC article Onanoff (talk) 10:15, 20 February 2016 (UTC)

Requested move 5 October 2020

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 

The result of the move request was: No consensus to move  (t &#183; c)  buidhe  04:31, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

Annette Kellermann → Annette Kellerman – This entry was created in October 2004 as "Annette Kellerman". Between 2011 and 2016 a number of postings discussed the surname under Talk:Annette Kellermann, above. in November 2015, the main title header was unilaterally moved to "Annette Kellermann", despite the following line by Jack of Oz (at 00:28, 14 April 2011): "And yet, the Australian Dictionary of Biography entry, which is one of the main sources for our article, spells it with 2 n's throughout, without even acknowledging the 1-n version ever existed, let alone being almost universally found." Indeed, while there were occasional listings of her name on posters and postcards as "Kellermann", the predominant spelling has been "Kellerman" (Britannica Online, British Film Institute, American Film Institute Catalog, Women Film Pioneers Project, IMDb, Turner Classic Movies, AllMovie, TVGuide, Find a Grave, etc). — Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 22:45, 5 October 2020 (UTC) —Relisting. feminist (talk) &#124; free Hong Kong 02:13, 14 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Comment. I'm checking the woodware, but in my UK "Cambridge Biographical Encylopaedia" (pub. Cambridge University Press), there is François Christophe de Kellermann and he only gets two inches. IMDB according to WP is not wP:RS. Usually "mann" is transcribed as "man" when Germans move to England - my great-grandparents did exactly that, translating Bachmann into Backman. By your own admission, you state that you're relying predominantly on a single source, the   Australian Dictionary of Biography. I'll check some other British sources, not because I want to defeat you, but I have a feeling that you may not be being WP:WORLDWIDE here. I don't have any Australian books, only British ones. Let the battle commence! 84.236.27.182 (talk) 23:31, 5 October 2020 (UTC)  WP:STRIKESOCK. -- Tavix  ( talk ) 01:05, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
 * A slight misunderstanding — I am not relying on Annette Kellerman's entry in Australian Dictionary of Biography, but simply quoting Jack of Oz, one of the contributors to the above discussion under section header "Proper spelling of name?" who mentioned it as the only encyclopedic entry that used the form "Kellermann", while all other encyclopedic entries used "Kellerman". I provided links to nine sources that use "Kellerman", but there are numerous others, such as another one listed by Jack of Oz, "Annette Kellerman Aquatic Centre, in her birthplace Marrickville". —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 00:01, 6 October 2020 (UTC)
 * She signed her name as Kellermann on memorabilia. Per COMMONNAME, she knew her name, even if some news services screw it up in the research department. See this photo for instance.  Regards,  GenQuest  "Talk to Me" 00:59, 6 October 2020 (UTC)
 * In addition, most of the above cherry-picked sources are not considered reliable: TV Guide, IMDb, Find-a-Grave, etc. Most of the Australian sources (closer to her time AND her home) use her " double-'N' " spelling that she herself used in life .   GenQuest  "Talk to Me" 02:29, 6 October 2020 (UTC)
 * There has been no cherry-picking — the sole encyclopedic source that uses the form "Kellermann" is Australian Dictionary of Biography — all other encyclopedias and databases use "Kellerman". Her 1952 Hollywood film biography — Million Dollar Mermaid — credits her as "the immortal Annette Kellerman" (see the film trailer). I have not been able to find any other encyclopedia or database that uses "Kellermann", but if one can be found, it should be submitted as supporting evidence.
 * As for Australian sources, as pointed out by Jack of Oz, above, and confirmed by her biography at Annette Kellerman Aquatic Centre, Annette's father was violinist Frederick Kellerman, not Kellermann, and her birth certificate lists her as "Kellerman", not "Kellermann". Furthermore, two biographies — 2005's The Original Million Dollar Mermaid: The Annette Kellerman Story and 2009's Mermaid Queen: The Spectacular True Story Of Annette Kellerman, Who Swam Her Way To Fame, Fortune & Swimsuit History! — both use "Kellerman". There are numerous other examples. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 05:22, 6 October 2020 (UTC)
 * She didn't fill out her birth certificate, her father did. He used the single "n" spelling, she, like her grandfather, did not. The NYT—the premier newspaper of its day— got it right in this article.  GenQuest  "Talk to Me" 15:34, 6 October 2020 (UTC)


 * Support. In British sources there is not much, I have in front of me The Chambers Biographical Dictionary, edited by Magnus Magnusson, where she is not mentioned at all. Assuming she is at all notable, we should have her at the spelling she herself used, per MOS:ID. In my larger Oxford Dictionary of National Biography she is not mentioned either, neither in my Hungarian or French biographical dictionaries (but François Christophe de Kellermann is mentioned, albeit breifly, in all of them). I don't think this person is particularly notable, but that is not here for discussion. I support the move to the right name. 84.236.27.182 (talk) 13:52, 6 October 2020 (UTC) WP:STRIKESOCK. -- Tavix  ( talk ) 01:05, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
 * The spelling she used was the two-"N" spelling . The article doesn't need to be moved to it, it is already there.  GenQuest  "Talk to Me" 15:34, 6 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Annette Kellerman is listed in Encyclopedia Britannica, Encyclopedia Americana, Compton's Encyclopedia, World Book Encyclopedia, Encarta Encyclopedia and every other encyclopedia I've checked, all as "Kellerman". Let us also not forget the two above-mentioned biographies — one published fifteen years ago (Allen & Unwin; 1st Edition (January 1, 2005) and the other published eleven years ago (Scholastic Press; 1st Edition (April 1, 2009) — both of which have "Kellerman" on the front cover. There is also the 2016 documentary The Original Mermaid The Amazing Story of ANNETTE KELLERMAN SUPERSTAR SUPERWOMAN and there's much more. The Kellerman → Kellermann main title header move should not have been made without a discussion. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 16:42, 6 October 2020 (UTC)


 * Oppose per WORLDWIDE, COMMONNAME, and RELIABLE: It's obvious that both forms of her name are widely reported, and we have to pick one to use in a non-POV fashion.  To that end, we keep seeing that she signed her name as Kellermann .  One has to assume she really did know her own name, even if some news services later screwed it up in the research department!  See this signed photo.  Scholarly sources get it right also: see "Annette Kellermann;" The Soil; vol. 1, no. 3; 1917; pp. 112–114; J.B.; (JSTOR, www.jstor.org/stable/20542293); Accessed 7 Oct. 2020.  Also, look at two of the premier—and editor staffed—news services of the day: New York Times: Annette Kellermann at the Palace; article; 29 January 1918; New York Times and the Washington Post: The General Slocum – Strong Like Her Book: Annette Kellermann; article: "A Deadly Disaster—A Daring Australian—And Modern Women's Swimwear"; Kessler, Martin; Washington Post.  Family names can change over generations, not always all at once.  (I am actually a genealogist hobbyist—hence the moniker—so I know this first-hand.)  You really do have to go with the name she used and identified with.  Regards,  GenQuest  "Talk to Me" 02:04, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Actually, WORLDWIDE, COMMONNAME, and RELIABLE all point to "Kellerman" — a hundred years ago there were references to her both as "Kellermann" and "Kellerman", but her WP:COMMONNAME in 2020 is Kellerman — all encyclopedias, except one, all databases, two recent biographical books and a recent biographical documentary all use "Kellerman". Her surviving films from the 1910s and 1920s depict her on-screen stage name as "Kellerman", not "Kellermann". She was present on the set of her 1952 biopic, Million Dollar Mermaid and conversed with Esther Williams, the star portraying her, and yet there is no record of her insistence that her name should appear as "Kellermann", rather than "Kellerman", as it appears in the film and on the vintage posters used in the film (available on YouTube). A move of this nature should have been submitted for RM, rather than undertaken unilaterally. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 02:50, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

Image caption: "Kellermann in her famous one-piece bathing suit, c. 1900"
Being born in 1887, in the year 1900, Kellermann would have turned 13. Was she actually 12 or 13 years of age in the picture? I find that difficult to believe. --2A0A:A541:E1FB:0:6C8E:9C42:692:2BF8 (talk) 15:33, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

I changed the report that Kellermann was arrested in 1907 on Revere Beach for Public Indedcency, and replaced the cite with my own book, Lost Wonderland (UMass Press 2020). There are no contemporary police records corroborating this story, and no newspaper reports of it. Kellermamn herself did not start telling the story until the 1920s. Yet there are plenty of other stories of women being arrested at Revere Beach for indecency because of their swimsuits, and there are news reports of Kellermann's arrests for other causes. Her abbreviated and form-fitting bathing suits were well known in Revere -- there had been a news report about her in the Revere local paper a year earlier. I suggest in my book that she had a reason to make up the story, to draw attention from her unintended involvement in a spectacular divorce case. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Stephen Wilk (talk • contribs) 04:08, 10 February 2021 (UTC)

Requested move 12 January 2022

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 

The result of the move request was: moved the nominator makes a strong case rooted in policy, and there have been no explicit objections to the proposal. (closed by non-admin page mover) Extraordinary Writ (talk) 07:35, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

Annette Kellermann → Annette Kellerman – per WP:COMMONNAME. This article was created in October 2004 as "Annette Kellerman" and remained under that main title header for 11 years until it was unilaterally moved in November 2015 to "Annette Kellermann". The original title should be restored, per WP:RETAIN, unless there is consensus for a move to "Kellermann" and such consensus is extremely unlikely to be obtained because the use of "Kellerman" is completely overwhelming. A hundred years ago, she was referenced as either "Kellermann" or "Kellerman" but, since then, it is entirely "Kellerman". Her father was violinist Frederick Kellerman, not Kellermann and her birth certificate lists her as "Kellerman", not "Kellermann". Furthermore, two biographies — 2005's The Original Million Dollar Mermaid: The Annette Kellerman Story and 2009's Mermaid Queen: The Spectacular True Story Of Annette Kellerman, Who Swam Her Way To Fame, Fortune & Swimsuit History! — both use "Kellerman" as does the 1952 biopic, Million Dollar Mermaid, with Esther Williams as Kellerman, as well as the 2016 documentary, The Original Mermaid The Amazing Story of ANNETTE KELLERMAN SUPERSTAR SUPERWOMAN. In her native Australia, there is the Annette Kellerman Aquatic Centre. Her entries in all the reference books and databases use "Kellerman" — Encyclopedia Britannica, Encyclopedia Americana, Compton's Encyclopedia, World Book Encyclopedia, Encarta Encyclopedia and every other encyclopedia I've checked, along with British Film Institute, American Film Institute Catalog, Women Film Pioneers Project, IMDb, Turner Classic Movies, AllMovie, TVGuide, Find a Grave, etc. Finally, all the modern-day media references use "Kellerman" — her 1975 obituary in The New York Times, 2010 rediscovery of her 1913 starring film, a detailed BBC article in 2016 and many more. — Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 10:34, 12 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Support per well-researched and presented nomination. Randy Kryn (talk) 11:13, 12 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Support per nom.--Ortizesp (talk) 14:42, 12 January 2022 (UTC)
 * The nomination is well-reasoned and I'm likely to support this. I'd like to ask -- it looks like in the previous discussion, the strongest argument in opposition was that she used the current spelling when she wrote her name herself. That doesn't necessarily outweigh the evidence in favor of a move compiled here, but is that still the case?--Yaksar (let's chat) 14:52, 12 January 2022 (UTC)
 * The memorabilia link states: "...with facsimile signature. The photo was likely a premium through Motion Picture Magazine." It's less likely that she actually signed it as it is that it was signed by the lowest paid office assistant. It'd be lucky if Kellerman even knew about the giveaway. Randy Kryn (talk) 15:13, 12 January 2022 (UTC)
 * The nomination omits one important reference: Australian Dictionary of Biography here, and the Canberra street name, both Kellermann. A curious aspect of this controversy is that there was none in the newspapers of the day, many articles blithely containing both. And there wasn't a rush to "Kellerman" during WWI when Germanic names were being Anglicized wholesale. And Melburnians twice as likely as Sydneysiders to use the double "N". Doug butler (talk) 22:05, 12 January 2022 (UTC)
 * One of the links in the nomination is to a 1914 article in The Argus (Melbourne): "ANNETTE KELLERMAN. Swimmer Sustains Injuries. Accident at Aquarium. NEW YORK. Feb. 3. Miss Annette Kellerman, the well-known swimmer, formerly of Australia..." Also, interestingly, the main title header of German Wikipedia's entry is "Annette Kellerman", not "Kellermann". —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 05:48, 13 January 2022 (UTC)