Talk:Ansel Adams/Archive 2

Updates to the lead
Please let me know your objections to my update of the lead to this article so that we may have a productive discussion and reach a consensus on those changes. Qono (talk) 04:10, 28 July 2018 (UTC)


 * Though I am not Cullen328, here's one comment. In the very first sentence, you added
 *  perhaps the most popular photographer of all time, 
 * First, as I view the page, it doesn't say this. Secondly, even if it does/did, I don't see how Artsy (a sales website) would be a credible source. Thirdly, I'd wonder what criteria could be used and whether such a statement, without an elaborate explanatory footnote or similar, could ever be encyclopedic. (How, in one short clause, could anyone meaningfully compare the popularities of Adams, Korda, Geddes, and others?) -- Hoary (talk) 04:29, 28 July 2018 (UTC)


 * , I want to know why you thought that the lead section of this article, which is the product of collaborative work by dozens of editors over many years, needs such a dramatic and sudden rewrite. I certainly did not not think that the article is perfect and am more than willing to consider changes, but I think that incremental and gradual changes to the body of the article are the way to begin. The lead can then be gradually rewitten to reflect changes in the body, since the purpose of the lead is to summarize the body.


 * In more specific terms, I object to the seemingly-promotional claim "perhaps the most popular photographer of all time" cited to Artsy (website), a commercial website that offers hundreds of thousands of artworks for sale online. Not only do I consider this link inappropriate but I consider its use to be spam. I do not like eliminating mention of Yosemite in favor of the far vaguer "American West". Although all his students know that he photographed widely throughout the west, I think that it is indisputable that Adams and Yosemite are inextricably linked in both reliable sources and the popular imagination.


 * I also object to the third paragraph consisting of harsh criticism, the largest paragraph in a three paragraph lead. Of course, criticism of Adams should be included in the body, but neutrality is not obtained by beginning the lead with fulsome promotional praise and ending it with scathing criticism. Instead, we should summarize how academic experts in photography as an art form assess Adams' legacy, as time has gone by. Overall, his reputation remains strong.


 * Your revision eliminates his role as an environmentalist. His participation in the Sierra Club was an essential part of his identity almost his entire life, and should be mentioned in the lead. Describing the Zone System as "complicated" says little when discussing the techniques of professional photographers 75 years ago. Photographers have it far easier now. The current version is a much better summary. The current version also mentions that his notabilty comes from popular culture such as postcards, calendars and books, as well as fine art photography. Cullen328  Let's discuss it  05:44, 28 July 2018 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the reply, and . These are all fair points.


 * My lead rewrite was in anticipation of further edits to the body. I see how that is putting the cart before the horse, so I will start with changes to the body, and be as incremental as is practical. My aim is to make it easier for the reader to find out more about his most important contributions and the highlights of his career.


 * I don't think Artsy should be disqualified as a source just because it's for-profit, but there are plenty of other reputable sources to cite in regards to Adams's popularity, so I won't pursue that particular debate. Qono (talk) 01:53, 30 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Artsy does not meet our standards as a reliable source. Period. End of story. Cullen328  Let's discuss it  02:03, 30 July 2018 (UTC)

Links to information for improvement
These sites contain information that potentially could be used to improve the article. They do not provide a unique resource beyond what the article would contain if it became a featured article, so they have been moved here from the External links section in accordance with WP:ELNO criterion #1. --Worldbruce (talk) 18:45, 28 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Densho Encyclopedia article on Adams' work in Manzanar
 * Exhibition catalog of Ansel Adams photographs at the Metropolitan Museum of Art
 * Ansel Adams at 100 at Los Angeles County Museum of Art review on artnet by Irit Krygier, Title: Wild America
 * Ansel Adams at 100 at Los Angeles County Museum of Art review on artnet by Irit Krygier, Title: Wild America

Reverted copyedits to the lead
Can you please clarify your objection to the copyedit that you reverted? Qono (talk) 18:22, 27 January 2019 (UTC)


 * I felt that "during" was not the right word, certainly not relative to exposure. And that "development" was more specific and appropriate than "processing", and that the last sentence rewrite really seemed to dilute the point. Dicklyon (talk) 19:14, 27 January 2019 (UTC)

Organization
The biography of Adams is placed in a subsection, and there are two levels of subsection within it. However, the smallest units (the decades) are pretty long, and a few sub-headings would help to organize them. For example, in the 1940s, a subsection on the Mural Project and another on WWII might be appropriate. However, fifth-level subheadings look the same as fourth-level. I have boldly decided to move the biography subsections up a level to implement that. RockMagnetist(talk) 17:40, 4 March 2019 (UTC)

Placement of images
(Some issues aren't really a part of the review, so I'm posting them separately.) There are a lot of images from the early 1940s, and I understand why. It's o.k. if a few are placed out of their chronological place, but the WWII farm images really belong in that subsection. The Lake McDonald image being quite large, I moved it to "The Zone System" to reduce clutter. RockMagnetist(talk) 18:12, 4 March 2019 (UTC)

I'm delighted that you added Monolith to the article! RockMagnetist(talk) 06:22, 5 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks! Qono (talk) 20:49, 5 March 2019 (UTC)

A point of grammer/grammar
There has been disagreement on how to write a possessive plural for the Adams family. I looked around some of the grammar guide, and they all agree that the plural of Adams is Adamses. As to whether this should be followed by an apostrophe or 's, there is some disagreement in general, but a good rule of thumb is - how would you pronounce it? It would be awkward to pronounce Adamses's with three "s" sounds, so I would say that Adamses' is correct. RockMagnetist(talk) 05:28, 9 April 2019 (UTC)
 * My correction was assuming the piano belonged to Ansel, not the Adams family. If it is the family’s piano (a safe bet if Adams is 12 at the time) then “Adamses’” is correct. Qono (talk) 13:34, 9 April 2019 (UTC)
 * The disagreement linked to involves singular constructions. If it's plural, then there's invariably no "s" added after the apostrophe. Dhtwiki (talk) 21:37, 10 April 2019 (UTC)

For after the Guild of Copy Editors banner is removed

 * The description of the business ventures of Charlie Adams is incorrect. There were two businesses - a lumber business built by William Adams that dwindled while William was still alive, leaving Charlie with little. The other was the Classen Chemical Company, which Charlie founded to make money off his patented method of making 200-proof alcohol out of sawdust. That's the one that Hawaiian sugar interests bought out because they were rivals, and once they had the controlling interest they fired the employees and ruined the factory. Charlie was left holding 46 percent of the now-worthless stock. (All of this from the Alinder bio.) RockMagnetist(talk) 05:39, 20 April 2019 (UTC)
 * In the "Birth" subsection, in the phrase "the only child of Charles Hitchcock Adams and Olive Bray Adams", the second mention of the surname seems superfluous. Should giving the wife's maiden be enough? I felt like changing it during the copy edit, as it could give the impression that "Adams" was the wife's maiden name; but I wasn't sure that it wasn't her maiden name. Dhtwiki (talk) 11:46, 8 May 2019 (UTC)
 * "Adams" is not Olive Bray's maiden name, "Bray" is. I've removed the redundant "Adams" here. Qono (talk) 21:54, 8 May 2019 (UTC)

File:Ansel Adams and camera.jpg scheduled for POTD
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