Talk:Anti-Polish sentiment/Archive 5

Often associated with the black legend (and sth like that)?
"It is often associated with a Polish "black legend" and a belief that almost any evil or folly may be laid at the doorstep of the Poles"
 * Sounds pretty much vague in my opinion. "Often"? Where does the statement come from?NightBeAsT 12:53, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

Reorganisation of the preamble
I reorganised the preamble (sorry, I did not relise that I was logged off, when comitting). Please, discuss the reorganisation here. Alx-pl 19:24, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
 * As soon as the article is unprotected, I recommend reducing the number of "this article is probably all wrong!" tags by at least one. :-p Tomer TALK  01:56, August 15, 2005 (UTC)

Protection
I've asked for protection of this page because for the last few days it has been constantly vandalised and revert wars started. However, I am still for improvement of this page. I would only ask for discussing all the changes here before we decide to make them in the article. I think that we've seen already what happens if there is no previous agreement reached here. I truly appreciate your engagement in improving this article and I am sure that we can reach effects satisfactory for all sides if only we use our energy for looking for sources instead of watching this page for reverts. As Nightbeast was kind to point out disputed sentences in the article, I would like to ask everyone to address them first. I would also like to remind that there is no policy, which says that Polish sources are worse than any others or are unsufficient. Also, please, since there seem to be so many German editors here, bring your sources as well. NPOV is easiest to reach by providing various points of view. --SylwiaS 02:26, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

Hey fellows! Are you sooooo afraid about those people who want to show the other readers that you are lying that you have to protect this         from being corrected? You are so paranoid, you should visit a psychiologist! Micha.

Hello again everybody. I send this to Alx, cause this discribes my problem to deal with the whole page. The main problem for me to handle the mentioned "facts" is the following example: If I would say that it is forbidden in Poland to eat Chinese food caused by “Anti- Chinism”, and I would bring some "Anti- Polish" German sources, how would you answer with Polish “Anti- sources”? There isn’t an Anti- source, cause there is no rule that tells you not to eat Chinese food. Thats reason why you cant bring anything about that topic, cause this topic doesnt exist! You cant do anything against it, but this rumours will work, as they always do. You cant even read the German sources cause this is foreign for you. (In fact I know that most people here can read German, but they get everything wrong: thats what scares me most, to know the truth, but to tell the opposit! This is propaganda my friends!) Does that mean, you have to life with lies used against you and your people? I cant allow extremists to bring lies to Wiki, cause people from overseas could maybe believe in that and say: “This Germans WWI, WWII and now this thing with the Poles: does they ever learn?” I work together with a Polish friend on the Polish sources brought up in the article. When he has translated the stuff, I will check the arguments. By the way, why do you ask me for sources? The main accuses in the "Germany today" section havent sources (For instance: which company has Polish people forbidden to speak Polish at home: without a source it must be erased), so why should I defend myself from accusations brought up without facts? And: can I be sure, that a 100% lie will be erased here? Cause I found in the discussion section someones translation of the German (about "Polnisch Verboten") source with a mutch better argumentation than I did. This was 6 months ago, and the lie is still there: does anybody cares for truth here? Anyway, I'm glad that you have left the "disputed" tag about the "Germany" section, cause this is a beginning. What I want to point out is, that I dont see the need of psychiologists here, Micha takes the whole discussion more emotional as I do, cause he is a Pole in Germany and he is afraid about the reputation of Poles. And he knows more than me that all the stuff is made up, cause hes living here for 18 years and he read the Polish "sources". The other thing is, that the thing you call vandalism isnt made by Micha and myself only, cause we showed the page to many friends, and they started to reedit the stuff - what in the result looks like vandalism. We all share the same IP. I told them now to stop doing so without bringing up facts and arguments. I was thy Guy who brought back the "disputed" tag again and again, cause the defintion of disputed never fits more than on this page. Maybe its good to cool down a bit and keep the conversation going, but: I want to see results, when a lie is detected! Greetings, Volker

Yes I am sure you didn't vandalize the page... "For instance: which company has Polish people forbidden to speak Polish at home" Cinic in Schwedt, where doctor Piotr Borowiec worked has forbidden Poles to speak Polish in their private time. http://www.wprost.pl/ar/?O=64635 Molobo.
 * What is meant by private time? After and before work? Or just in the breaks during the work? Is only Polish forbidden, or can it also be every language that the employer cannot speak? If he doesn't allow any language that he cannot understand, why should it be anti-polonistic? Many people cannot stand it when others speak in their presence in a language they cannot understand. It excludes them. And anyway, what makes the employer anti-polonistic? He gave Poles a job in a time of great unemployment in Germany. Is that a sign of an "irrational or malicious hostility toward Poles"? Calling him anti-polonistic seems to me to be probably too far-fetched. How old is the story and has the clinic confirmed the accusations? NightBeAsT 01:29, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

"For instance" means: I want sources for the other accusations to. "Accusations of U.S. lackeyism": source! "Stereotypes in German media": source! Id would be nice from you to bring some non "Wprost" sources, cause I know about this magazine, and it isnt a true source; as the German "Bild" isnt a true one! Bring some reasonable sources, and I will do my work to have them translated, but again the nationalistic boulevard magazin "Wrpost" isnt a source at all! The link that you made to the German newspaper tells the story in a complete diffrent way, so why do you mention Newsweek (where is the link to that article?) and Wrost when the German source says exactly the opposite as Wrpost? Nobody knows what Newsweek printed, cause you dont let know us. Maybe you thougt that no one would check that? Mistake! Volker

Ah, Wprost is now nationalistic antigerman source :) Predictable reaction.Molobo

And the other sources I asked for? Begin with these even if they are from Wrpost, cause this could be a start. Or is there no source? Volker

Dear Molobo! First of all : the Wprost is also in Poland known as something we call Boulevard Press. 2. even in this article, which has an extremely high anti-German tendency, it is mentioned, that the Doctor you mentioned was told, that it is forbidden to speak polish during the time he is in the clinic! Since it is very important in a clinic, that in case of medical decicions, that very often have to be made to rescue someone's life, everybody has to understand what is said! 3. Couldn't it be, that the father, who is mentioned in this article, is allowed to see his child under the observation of the youth authorities? It would be forbidden for a father to talk to his child in german, if he only was allowed to visit his child under the observation of the polish youth authorities. 4. I as a polish German or german Pole am deeply ashamed, that this article has been published in the press of a country, in which education is at a high standart. 5. You blamed me for telling the readers of this page, that I mentioned my own personal experiences, but it's you who refers to an article, where only personal experiences are mentioned! If you don't want me to mention personal experiences, what gives you the right to do the same thing? 6. Believe me, my polish is good enough to understand this article, and if neccessary I will translate it for the other readers. Best Greetings, Micha.

P.s.:I am sorry for being such emotional before.

It seems you aren't able to read Polish very well, or simply try do disinform.First of all Wprost is one of the leading newspapers in Poland, respected and with rich history.Low end newspapers are Fakt and Super Express.

As to your claim: "Doctor you mentioned was told, that it is forbidden to speak polish during the time he is in the clinic! Since it is very important in a clinic, that in case of medical decicions, that very often have to be made to rescue someone's life, everybody has to understand what is said! Oh dear. Ever tried to read the article ? The duty to speak German included his free time after performing work. "Couldn't it be, that the father, who is mentioned in this article, is allowed to see his child under the observation of the youth authorities? It would be forbidden for a father to talk to his child in german, if he only was allowed to visit his child under the observation of the polish youth authorities." As has been pointed out earlier we were talking about other cases.Not the one you are.

5. You blamed me for telling the readers of this page, that I mentioned my own personal experiences, but it's you who refers to an article, where only personal experiences are mentioned! If you don't want me to mention personal experiences, what gives you the right to do the same thing? Journalists write about what they verified not about their personal experience.

Cheers and try to read something before attacking it ok ? --Molobo 01:20, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

Expansion of WWI part
During WWI Germany intended to create a puppet Polish state called Kingdom of Poland.This howeve shouldn't be seen as break with German antipolonism.In fact if we look at behaviour of German officials and their ideology we shall see continuation of the same ideas expressed before and seen later during Nazi regime. Here a couple of interesting links which should be included with short lines describing the mentioned behaviour: http://www.firstworldwar.com/source/poland_walcott.htm "In the refugee camps, 300,000 survivors of the flight were gathered by the Germans, members of broken families. They were lodged in jerry-built barracks, scarcely waterproof, unlighted, unwarmed in the dead of winter.

Their clothes, where the buttons were lost, were sewed on. There were no conveniences, they had not even been able to wash for weeks. Filth and infection from vermin were spreading. They were famished, their daily ration a cup of soup and a piece of bread as big as my fist.

In Warsaw, which had not been destroyed, a city of one million inhabitants, one of the most prosperous cities of Europe before the war, the streets were lined with people in the pangs of starvation.

Famished and rain-soaked, they squatted there, with their elbows on their knees or leaning against the buildings, too feeble to lift a hand for a bit of money or a morsel of bread if one offered it, perishing of hunger and cold. Charity did what it could. The rich gave all that they had, the poor shared their last crust. Hundreds of thousands were perishing.

Day and night the picture is before my eyes - a people starving, a nation dying.

In that situation, the German commander issued a proclamation. Every able-bodied Pole was bidden to Germany to work. If any refused, let no other Pole give him to eat, not so much as a mouthful, under penalty of German military law.

This is the choice the German Government gives to the conquered Pole, to the husband and father of a starving family: Leave your family to die or survive as the case may be. Leave your country which is destroyed, to work in Germany for its further destruction. If you are obstinate, we shall see that you surely starve.

Staying with his folk, he is doomed and they are not saved; the father and husband can do nothing for them, he only adds to their risk and suffering. Leaving them, he will be cut off from his family, they may never hear from him again nor he from them.

Germany will set him to work that a German workman may be released to fight against his own land and people. He shall be lodged in barracks, behind barbed wire entanglements, under armed guard. He shall sleep on the bare ground with a single thin blanket. He shall be scantily fed and his earnings shall be taken from him to pay for his food.

That is the choice which the German Government offers to a proud, sensitive, high strung people. Death or slavery."

"Starvation is here," said General von Kries. "Candidly, we would like to see it relieved; we fear our soldiers may be unfavourably affected by the things that they see. But since it is here, starvation must serve our purpose.  So we set it to work for Germany.  By starvation we can accomplish in two or three years in East Poland more than we have in West Poland, which is East Prussia, in the last hundred years.  With that in view, we propose to turn this force to our advantage."

"This country is meant for Germany," continued the keeper of starving Poland. "It is a rich alluvial country which Germany has needed for some generations. We propose to remove the able-bodied working Poles from this country.  It leaves it open for the inflow of German working people as fast as we can spare them.  They will occupy it and work it."

Then with a cunning smile, "Can't you see how it works out? By and by we shall give back freedom to Poland.  When that happens Poland will appear automatically as a German province."

The quote in particular will be an interesting addition to collection of antipolish quotes demonstrating cultural tradions of antipolonism present in Prussia/Germany

The fragment below shows how similar methods used by German Empire were with methods used by German Reich towards Poles: http://www.firstworldwar.com/source/poland_prussianspeech.htm "Speech by a Polish Member of the Prussian Legislature, M. Trompczynski in 1917

In the first place, I wish to call attention to the sad fate of the Polish workmen from the Kingdom of Poland (Russian Poland).

I know very well that different abuses, of which these workmen are victims, are not the fault of the Minister, or of his Department, because he has to share his power with the military authorities. If, however, the Minister cannot help I appeal to public opinion to force a change in the conditions.

At the outbreak of the war, 250,000 Polish workmen happened to be in Germany. In accordance with military orders, they were forbidden to leave the territory of the German Empire. This order was completely illegal and contrary to the principles of international law, which admit only such aliens to be interned who might be summoned to the enemy army.

You can easily imagine the condition of these people who now for two and a half years have been separated from their families. They have simply become victims of exploitation on the part of their employers, who now that the workman cannot leave his place of employment pay only as much as they choose.

For instance, in a certain village of West Prussia a certain farmer pays the season-workman literally 30 pfennigs daily, and has kept him for the last two years!

As the need for workmen was greater than the number of those interned, attempts have been made to get a bigger number of workmen from the Kingdom of Poland. Gradually the number of workmen from the Kingdom has reached the figure of half a million.

The present Minister of the Interior has handed over the monopoly of finding new workmen to the Central German Labour Office. I am compelled to accuse that institution of choosing for its agents - and there are some 600 of them - people who grossly mislead the workmen concerning their future pay and mode of employment.

One of their special ways of attracting people is to promise in a written agreement very considerable supplies in kind, for instance, 30 pounds of potatoes a week, a litre of milk a day, etc., and they do not call attention to the postscriptum which states that instead of the supplies in kind, money will be given.

The German newspapers have raised an outcry that those workmen get so much food, whereas in reality they get very little food, and instead of a pound of potatoes they get three-and-a-half pfennigs, and for a litre of milk 4 or 5 pfennigs. It is clear that for that money they cannot buy even sufficient food.

The next way in which the workman is being exploited is the time of service to which he agrees. In the printed agreements it is usually stated that the agreement is for six months or the duration of the war.

The agents rely on it that no one reads the printed contract and persuade the workman that he is agreeing only to six months' work. I know it from hundreds of workmen that they have been cheated in that manner.

But the military authorities have twisted the matter still more to the detriment of the workmen by declaring that all workmen from the Kingdom of Poland without regard to the nature of their agreement are considered unfree, i.e., prisoners who are not allowed to go home.

I appeal to public opinion to consider in what an unworthy way these people have been attracted by lies to Germany. And thus there are many thousands of them who imagined that they agreed to a contract for six months and who have by now been kept here for more than a year and a half.

Also in this respect the employers obviously exploit the situation by dictating arbitrary conditions for the extension of the contract, because they know that the workman is unable to defend himself. It has, moreover, to be considered that even a contract extending the original conditions is now detrimental to the workmen, because it is impossible to live at the present day on the pay which was sufficient a year and a half ago.

I pillory before public opinion the orders of the Commanding General of Munster of October 16, 1915, and February 16, 1916, in which he recommends to the employers to compel unwilling workmen to accept an extension of the contract by depriving them of their bedding, of light and food.

I hope that the Minister will use his influence in order to prevent the new military authorities from continuing such a policy.

Nor can I remain silent on the point that recently the Central Labour Office has instituted with the help of the local authorities in the Kingdom of Poland a regular hunt for people.

Thus, for instance, towards the end of November, 1916, i.e., after the Manifesto of November 5th (the Proclamation of Polish "Independence"), a free entertainment was announced in the theatre. The lights were put up in the theatre, but when the public had assembled the theatre was surrounded by soldiers, men fit for work were caught and handed over to the Central Labour Office.

Further, the Minister of the Interior has issued an order that subjects of the Kingdom of Poland can be employed only in big or middling undertakings and not in small ones. The result of this order is that the police remove hairdressers, bakers, tailors, etc., from their workshops and send them to the farmers.

These orders are supposed to help the farmers who suffer from a lack of labour, whilst in reality they burden the farms with workmen, some of whom are weak and others incapable of doing the work, and who, anyhow, are unwilling to do it.

We have no objection to our countrymen from the Kingdom of Poland seeking work in this country, but we consider it a most scandalous injustice that an order has been issued which, without any reason or sensible purpose, has changed these workmen into slaves" As it can be seen slave labour of Poles, and forced catchings of Polish slaves(known in Poland as lapanki) to fuel German economy wasn't idea an original idea of Hitler. Molobo.

Neonazism,a fashion among German youth
Gazeta Wyborcza reports that Nazi ideology is seen as fashion statement among German youth.Beatings of Poles and defining Poles as hostile "them" is part of it. http://serwisy.gazeta.pl/metro/1,50145,2869510.html

"Wykorzystuje to NPD, organizujac spotkania, obozy i szkolenia samoobrony dla niemieckich nastolatków. Dzialacze partii wyrabiaja w mlodych nastawienie "my przeciwko nim". "Oni" to Turcy, Rosjanie, Polacy czy Albanczycy." "- Najpierw zaczal nosic bluzy firmy Lonsdale [popularne wsród neonazistów ze wzgledu na zawarte w nazwie litery "nsda" przypominajace NSDAP - red.] - wspomina matka. - Nastepnie zaczal sie ubierac w koszulke z nazwa zespolu Bierpatrioten spiewajacego np. utwór "Rewanz za Rudolfa Hessa". W koncu, gdy pobil Polaka, nie wytrzymalam i wyrzucilam go z domu."

We should add that in addition to organisations supported by CDU/CSU politicians, other more radical German political parties exist that posses even more hostile attiude towards Poles-NPD.

Molobo.


 * The NPD is an extremistical racist, nationalistic, xenophobic, anti-constitutional and rather unpopular party in Germany. They're not specifically anti-polonistic but against foreigners on principle .NightBeAsT 17:15, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Are they against foreigners from Norway or Austria ? I doubt it.The fact that they are expressing several phobias doesn't change the fact that they do express antipolonism.Just as the fact that German Reich was antipolish, doesn't change the fact that it was antisemitic as well.

Molobo.
 * From the German Wikipedia: "Ihr Ziel ist die Schaffung eines vom Ausland stark abgegrenzten Deutschlands. Alle Lebensbereiche, sei es in der Wirtschaft, der Politik oder in der Kultur sollen ausschließlich deutschnational sein. Dementsprechend will die NPD die Vertreibung der nichtdeutschen Wohnbevölkerung aus der Bundesrepublik, die Wiedereinführung einer nationalen Währung und den Austritt Deutschlands aus internationalen Bündnissen wie NATO und EU durchsetzen. Auch fordert sie die Abschaffung des Asylrechts". I don't know whether they're against Norway or Austria. Maybe some are not. Germany and Austria were both included in the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation so Austria, a German nation, may be seen as part of Germany thus not foreign. A small unpopular nationalistic, racist party that is against foreigners in general maybe except for those seen as German is not a strong argument for anti-polonism. I consider anti-polonism more specific, not a very small part included in xenophobia.NightBeAsT 19:24, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

In general Molobo, What you need for any “Antiism” is a organisation, a law, an ideology, books and medias made by that ideologists, an action or oppression from the government or a massive movement against people made systematically caused by deep hate against the people and their culture. That some individuals said silly stuff doesn’t fit the definition. Even the sayings of the mentioned individuals presented here aren’t based on sources, facts or anything reasonable. And so the whole idea of Anti- Polonism in todays Germany is Bull.... at all; do history writing as you want, nobody cares, cause it looks like German bashing is part of your personal culture. But when you blame “Germany today” being in any kind of tradition with the Third Reich (in my opinion thats the picture you try to paint) its disgusting and a shame for you. Dumbness doesn’t know borders, and of course we have some nationalists and idiots. But the thinking of these guys isn’t common sense in Germany at all, and you have the nerve to tell the people on Wiki that it is. You are in a good tradition of ideologists. For me you have a very strong "Anti- Germanism", but that doesn’t mean that I start to blame Poland for being "Anti- German" on Wiki with your sayings as a source. And again: Wiki is based on facts not on hallucinations or propaganda: you have a deep lack of facts in what you call a "argumentation". A major problem is that you read what you wrote, and you write what you read: what about international sources, or a translation of your Polish sources, cause this isnt Wiki Poland, and I cant defend myself from your silly argumentation caused by your sources are mainly in Polish. Every German source you brought up here was detected as a lie or as a strong missinterpretion, maybe thats reason why you dont translate. Bring sources! Volker "What you need for any “Antiism” is a organisation, a law, an ideology, books and medias made by that ideologists, an action or oppression from the government or a massive movement against people made systematically caused by deep hate against the people and their culture. That some individuals said silly stuff doesn’t fit the definition." All you desire is in the article.Laws made against Poles,books dedicated to attacking Poles, organisations fighting Poles etc.Including scientific work on antipolonism. "the whole idea of Anti- Polonism in todays Germany is Bull.... at all" I'm afraid its the German mother who complains in article by Gazeta Wyborcza that her son is fascinated by fashion with Nazism, and Poles are one of his enemies. "very German source you brought up here was detected as a lie or as a strong missinterpretion" Really ? Which was lie and which missinterpatation ? So far I have seen none.--Molobo 01:31, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

Swap of version during the protection
This is a very good solution, indeed. I would like to kindly ask all the people here to consider and discuss my proposition here to reorganise the beginning of the article. Alx-pl 06:40, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
 * I don't think there's much to object to it except for the tag, which should be   instead of    as the neutrality is currently not disputed, only more than four "facts". Concealing those "facts" are disputed is avoidance vandalism. Anyone who disagrees for constructive reasons that Alx-pl's version with a changed tag should not be swapped with the current one?NightBeAsT 16:23, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

In which way are the facts disputed.They took place.Molobo.
 * True, not all are disputed: the remaining "facts" put under the headline 'Disputed' are so false that no-one could ever make an attempt at verifying any. So you could be happy that they're just *disputed* because they will be deleted once the article's protection expires and they're still not verified.NightBeAsT 21:57, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

Poland will crumble
(This section is not connected to the article. NightBeAsT)

Lithuania destroyed USSR, will destroy and Russia and Poland. Both Russia and Poland are Slaves' countries parasiting in 100% at the lands of other nations. Both Poland and Russia will crumble. Pomerania and Silesia will go to Germany, all Baltic Prussia untill Vistula river - to Lithuania. All Slaves will be out. Flying Kvaker 16:31, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Interesting quote by Flying Kvaker aka Zivinbudas: Very short and very clear: Slaves - to gas chambers. --Witkacy 21:41, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

Just to make it clear, I do not support the POV of Flying Kvaker! I'm pretty sure nobody who has the ability to think does! I'm sorry for being emotional again, but I cannot tolerate Racism.

Zebysmy sie dobrze zrozumieli, ja nie jestem tym samym zdaniem jak Flying Kvaker! Jestem pewien, ze kazdy rozsadnie myslacy czlowiek nie moze byc tym zdaniem! Przepraszam za emocjonalna reakcje, ale ja nie toleruje Rasismu.

Ich distanciere mich in aller Form von dem rassistischen Standpunkt von Flying Kvaker. Rassismus in dieser Form kann und wird nicht toleriert werden.

Best greetings, Micha.

This guy comes from Lithuania, and not from Germany.


 * No need to react, Micha. This person was already reported as a possible sockpuppet of Zivinbudas to the admins (after all Zivinbudas was the only person I know to believe Lithuania stretches from Vistula to Saint Petersburg and that Slavs are slaves... If it was the first time such remarks are repeated out of the blue, I would probably be upset somehow. However, with time you get used to Zivinbudas. Humans can get used to almost anything... Halibutt 17:50, August 16, 2005 (UTC)

I’m a little bit scared now, but if its true: I hope we will life in peace and good friendship with our new neighbour Lithuania! But please don’t expand your superb empire to the river Rhein, cause I can tell you: the French are bad neighbours, the worst we have, and I’m really scared by the tremendous power of your large Lithuanian army. If you decide different: Hail to the new Lithuanian empire, and greetings from your colony Germania inferior! If they dont want, we will serve you as slaves! In fact: I cant wait to begin my work for you Flying Toaster!

The Lithuanians have a Toaster that can fly? Whow! Now we all are really scared of! :-) At this point I agree with Halibutt! We have to take this guy with humor. Micha.

" If you are looking for Anti-Polish racists - check this talk page" lets wait for the next one :)--Witkacy 21:38, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

Sorry Molobo!
(This section is not connected to the article. NightBeAsT)

Dear Molobo, I have to apologize to you at all! I’ve got you wrong, cause now it turns out that you are a humanist and a fair men in any case and under any circumstances. I was just at your private side where you showed your neutral point of view and your warm heart. Nothing shows id better then this sentence from you: “Neither Dresden nor Hiroshima and Nagasaki were crimes” So when killing 500.000 helpless civilians isn’t a crime what are we talking about here? Values? Or maybe Polish racist nationalism combined with a deep lack of honesty. And the best thing: he is studying journalism! That’s why he is so careful about the truth of his sources. So you are the best guaranty for the next generation of Poles to grow up miss educated by the medias and full of hate as you obviously are. This was not (only) to blame you but also for the others here, that they can know about you and your intentions. With deepest respect for your Christianity and your friendly soul, Volker

Oh getting out of arguments and trying to use personal attacks.Whatever.Let's look at what actuall was written :"
 * It's not at all relevant to Rommel (like most of this discussion page), but I'd dispute your assertation that the bombing of Dresden or Hiroshima and Nagasaki were war-crimes. Leithp 15:57, August 10, 2005 (UTC)

+	+	Neither Dresden nor Hiroshima and Nagasaki were crimes.Katyn was genocide but not comparable to Nazi war crimes" Which is true, since according to rules of war those cities were legitmate military targets(military presence, role, industry)--Molobo 22:29, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
 * (off-topic remark: No, a crime is also an act that you personally consider to be immoral even if it may conform to the rules. And you know, some consider it immoral to almost exclusively go for the civilian population in a war, as they did in Dresden, Hiroshima and Nagasaki.)

"and full of hate as you obviously are." Another attempt of personal attack.Common actually, in attempts to claim that people documenting Nazi war crimes or persecution made by German state are filled with "hate".However this is rather biased, I don't hate nobody, nor do I hate Germany or German people(for example the current Pope, or Germans spying for Allies during the war are admirable people). "With deepest respect for your Christianity and your friendly soul" Oh, I'm an atheist. Don't believe in soul.--Molobo 22:29, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

Dear Molobo! Tell me. what exactly has been produced for military purpose in Dresden? Nothing! Dresden never was an industrial City! Military Presence? None! Dresden had no special meaning for the military. A lot of displaced persons? YES! Dresden was full of refugees, and the English and Americans knew that! The only thing why this attac happened wasto terrorize the civilians- and that -according to the Geneve Rules of War- exactly is a war crime. Let's talk about Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Did the Americans spare these cities from bombing them with conventional bombs because they wanted to check if the atomic bomb worked? Yes! Did the Americans know what would happen to the people living there? Yes! They tested the Effects in the desert of Nevada nad other places. Is it a crime of war to test the effects on innocent people (Women, Children)? According to the Geneve Rules of War, Yes! So, why do we not call these happenings crimes of war? Simply because the Britons, Americans and Russians won the war! Just to make it clear: I do respect the victims caused by war crimes commited by Germans, there is no excuse for what happened in the concentration camps! But the Germans where not the only ones, who committed war crimes! How many german people have been killed, when the Alliied bombed the residential districts (the areas where the people lived)? Hundreds of thousands! How many women have been raped by russian soliders? Thousands! How many people died o hunger while they had to work in Sibiria? Hundreds of thousands! Were these things war crimes? Yes! How many Germans have been killed or displaced from Pomerania, Silesia (Schlesien), Böhmen by Poles and Chechish People? Hundreds of thousands! Are these war crimes? Yes! Do the germans want their lost territory back? No! We know that we had to pay for what we did. And we paid. The Oder-Neisse-Line is accepted as the legal border of Poland, the german chancelors and presidents asked for forgiveness on more than one occasion (just remember Willy Brandt kneeing in Warsaw in front of the memorial for the unknown solider). What we ask for is a sign of apology from you, the Alliied, Poles, Chechs, Russians... The polish bishops did the first step. "We forgive and we ask for forgiveness". I think that is a good base on which we can continue talking. Best greetings, Micha.


 * Hej Micha, can you bring some source on the reaction of German bishops on the Polish we forgive and ask...? As I mentioned before, it could improve the Polish-German friendship section. Alx-pl 23:13, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
 * It would be also nice to have something on the impact of what the cancelor Brandt did. This, as the forgivness case, may enrich the friendship section. I did not mention these facts in the section although they were present in my source (see the history description) only because it is impossible to make them to be to the point without a point of view from the German side. And my German is too weak to effectively search the German Internet for such complicated issues. Alx-pl 23:25, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

As to Dresden: "what exactly has been produced for military purpose in Dresden? Nothing! Dresden never was an industrial City! Military Presence? None! Dresden had no special meaning for the military." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden_in_World_War_II#Was_the_bombing_a_war_crime.3F "The case against the bombing being a war crime

For details on the treaty obligations of the Allies see aerial area bombardment and international law in 1945

"In examining these events in the light of international humanitarian law, it should be borne in mind that during the Second World War there was no agreement, treaty, convention or any other instrument governing the protection of the civilian population or civilian property, as the Conventions then in force dealt only with the protection of the wounded and the sick on the battlefield and in naval warfare, hospital ships, the laws and customs of war and the protection of prisoners of war"[54].

The United States military lays out the following historically based case that bombing of Dresden did not constitute a war crime[55]


 * 1. The raid had a legitimate military end, brought about by exigent military circumstances.
 * 2. That there were military units, and anti-aircraft defense within a sufficiently close perimeter to disqualify the town as "undefended".
 * 3. The raid did not use extraordinary means to achieve this end, but was comparable to other raids used against comparable targets.
 * 4. The raid was carried out through the normal chain of command, pursuant to directives and agreements then in force.
 * 5. The raid achieved the military objective established without "excessive" loss of civilian life.

The first point has two parts, the first in reference to the American precision bombing of the railyards, which rests on the assertion that there was an exigent military circumstance that made the railyard an important military target, beyond its usual value as a communication centre, and the second that Dresden was an industrial and military target, which would make the attack on the city centre an object of legal military action.

In reference to the first an inquiry conducted on the direction the American Secretary of War, General George C. Marshall affirmed that the military necessity of the raid was established by the available facts. The inquiry would establish that, in the view of American military planners, that cutting the ability of the German ability to either reinforce a counter attack against Marshall Konev's extended line, or to retreat and regroup using Dresden as a base of operations. That Dresden had been largely untouched during the war left it as one of the few remaining working rail and communications centres. A secondary objective was to disrupt the industrial use of Dresden for munitions manufacture, which American intelligence believed to be the case. The fear of a Nazi break out, as had so nearly happened during the Battle of the Bulge, which ran from December 16, 1944 to January 25, 1945, less than three weeks before the bombing of Dresden, was present on the minds of Allied planners.

The second part is in reference to whether Dresden was an militarily significant industrial centre. An official 1942 guide described the German city as "one of the foremost industrial locations of the Reich" and in 1944, the German Army High Command's Weapons Office listed 127 medium-to-large factories and workshops which supplied the army with materiel[56].

The United States Strategic Bombing Survey listed at least 110 factories and industries in Dresden[57], albeit mainly in the outskirts, which were far less affected by the February 1945 raid. '''The city contained the Zeiss-Ikon optical factory and the Siemens glass factory, both of which, according to the Allies, were entirely devoted to manufacturing military gunsights. The immediate suburbs contained factories building radar and electronics components, and fuses for anti-aircraft shells. Other factories produced gas masks, engines for Junkers aircraft and cockpit parts for Messerschmitt fighters[58]. ''' Because of this concentration of industry, made even more important by the relatively undamaged nature of Dresden at the time of the raids, the allied planners had reason to believe that Dresden was a crucial prop in the German effort to maintain supply for the defense of Germany itself.

The second point is crucial for meeting the standards of prohibitions, in place since 1899, and reaffirmed in 1907 and 1938, against use of bombardment against "undefended" towns. Since no specific convention was in place at the time of Dresden, in part because of German opposition to the 1938 draft convention, the defense against charges of war crimes for Dresden asserts that the presence of active Germany military units in the area, and the presence of both fighters and anti-aircraft near Dresden are sufficient to qualify Dresden as "defended" under the Hague II.

The third point is that the size of the Dresden raid, in terms of numbers of bombs, their type, and the means of delivery were commensurate with the military objective. On February 3rd, 1945, the Allies bombed Berlin, and caused an estimated 25,000 civil fatalities, other raids in Japan caused civilian casualties over 100,000. The tonnage and types of bombs listed in the service records show that the raid was of comparable throw weight to other raids carried out in early 1945.

The fourth point is that no extraordinary decision was made to single out Dresden, or to take advantage of the large number of refugees for the purpose of "terrorizing" the German populace. The intent of area bombing was to destroy the morale of workers in industrial production, not to kill dislocated, and therefore not involved in the war effort, civilians. The American inquiry established that the Soviets, pursuant to allied agreements for the United States and the United Kingdom to provide air support for the Soviet offensive into Germany to Berlin, had requested area bombing of Dresden in order to end the threat of either a counter attack through Dresden, or a German retreat and regroup using Dresden as a regrouping point.

The fifth point is that the firebombing achieved the intended effect of destroying, crippling, or disabling, a substantial fraction of industry in what was one of Germany's last centres of industrial production. American estimates had over 25% of industrial capacity disabled or destroyed, and it prevented the use of Dresden by the Germany military to launch any counterstrikes to check the Soviet advance.

A sixth point is that, insofar as Europe has been at comparative peace for sixty years, and Germany has actively played a part in fostering that peace, it may be that the underlying policy of carrying the war into Germany in 1945 has worked. It is notable that Dresden, the cultural city, has more obviously kept this subject alive than has Dortmund for example. Some may argue that this policy has saved many more lives than the number lost in the Dresden raid, but there are serious difficulties with this line of reasoning. There is no question that Nazi Germany would have been defeated without the aerial bombardment of historic inner cities. The memory of Dresden does ensure that the horrors of war are not forgotten, but the fact that these horrors were visited on German civilians by Allied bomber squads could have bred a desire for revenge as easily as pacifism. The pacifism and repentance that define the postwar (or at least post-1968) German discourse about World War II do not derive from the destruction of Dresden, but from a popular acknowledgement of the monumental atrocities committed in Germany's name." Please read about the topics you wish to comment.As to other mistakes it is neither the place and neither have the time to correct you.--Molobo 01:47, 17 August 2005 (UTC) As a bonus : http://www.airforcehistory.hq.af.mil/PopTopics/dresden.htm " I. ANALYSIS: Dresden as a Military Target

5. At the outbreak of World War II, Dresden was the seventh largest city in Germany proper.2 With a population of 642,143 in 1939, Dresden was exceeded in size only by Berlin, Hamburg, Munich, Cologne, Leipzig, and Essen, in that order.3 The serial bombardments sustained during World War II by the seven largest cities of Germany are shown in Chart A.

6. Situated 71 miles E.S.E. from Leipzig and 111 miles S. of Berlin, by rail, Dresden was one of the greatest commercial and transportation centers of Germany and the historic capital of the important and populous state of Saxony.4 It was, however, because of its geographical location and topography and as a primary communications center that Dresden assumed major significance as a military target in February 1945, as the Allied ground forces moved eastward and the Russian armies moved westward in the great combined operations designed to entrap and crush the Germans into final defeat.

7. Geographically and topographically, Dresden commanded two great and historic traffic routes of primary military significance: north-south between Germany and Czechoslovakia through the valley and gorge of the Elbe river, and east-west along the foot of the central European uplands.5 The geographical and topographical importance of Dresden as the lower bastion in the vast Allied-Russian war of movement against the Germans in the closing months of the war in Europe.

8. As a primary communications center, Dresden was the junction of three great trunk routes in the German railway system: (1) Berlin-Prague-Vienna, (2) Munich-Breslau, and (3) Hamburg-Leipzig. As a key center in the dense Berlin-Leipzig railway complex, Dresden was connected to both cities by two main lines.6 The density, volume, and importance of the Dresden-Saxony railway system within the German geography and e economy is seen in the facts that in 1939 Saxony was seventh in area among the major German states, ranked seventh in its railway mileage, but ranked third in the total tonnage carried by rail.7

9. In addition to its geographical position and topography and its primary importance as a communications center, Dresden was, in February 1945, known to contain at least 110 factories and industrial enterprises that were legitimate military targets, and were reported to have employed 50,000 workers in arms plants alone.8 Among these were dispersed aircraft components factories; a poison gas factory (Chemische Fabric Goye and Company); an anti-aircraft and field gun factory (Lehman); the great Zeiss Ikon A.G., Germany’s most important optical goods manufactory; and, among others, factories engaged in the production of electrical and X-ray apparatus (Koch and Sterzel A.G.), gears and differentials (Saxoniswerke), and electric gauges (Gebruder Bassler).9 "--Molobo 01:47, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

So it was OK to bomb Warsawa to the ground, cause it was a military target in WWII. No act of Anti- anything, just war. Could you agree on that Molobo? Maybe you must when you take your arguments sirious, but I cant, cause for me civilians arent a target for atacks, cause this was even in WWII against the international law. But as I always did: I dont talk about history, I want to talk about today, and your concept of Antiism is Bull.... for the today- situation. Volker

Warsaw (or Warszawa) was not a military target, unlike Dresden, toopit! Space Cadet 15:37, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

OF COURSE THERE WAS NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO MILITARY IN WARSAW, AND BECAUSE THERE WAS NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO MILITARY, IT WAS NEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEVEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR A LEGITIME TARGET! BESIDES; WARSAW WAS NEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEVVVVVVVVVVVVEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEER THE COMMAND CENTER OF THE POLISH ARMY! NEXT TIME THINK ABOUT WHAT YOU ARE WRITING! Micha.

http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/pol39/pol39.htm 13 September 1939, the town of Frampol, with a population of 3000, and without military or industrial targets, nor any Polish Army defenders, was practically annihiliated by Luftwaffe bombing practice. In the opinion of Luftwaffe analyst Harry Hohnewald: "Frampol was chosen as an experimental object, because test bombers, flying at low speed, weren't endangered by AA fire. Also, the centrally placed town hall was an ideal orientation point for the crews. We watched possibility of orientation after visible signs, and also the size of village, what guranteed that bombs neverthless fall down on Frampol. From one side it should make easier the note of probe, from second side it should confirm the efficiency of used bombs." (after Wolfgang Schreyer's book "Eyes on the sky.") --Molobo 00:35, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

So. Molobo. then tell me, why has Rathenow been destroyed? Rathenow has been a small german town with no Industry and no Military Protection. MOLOBO! ALTHOUHG I KNOW THAT YOU ARE A F... FUNDAMENTALISTIC POLISH SEMI PATRIOT; REFER TO FACTS! And stop referring to pages that show nothing but Bullshit! Show us some real and neutral proofs! Podaj prawdziwe i neutralne zrodla!

We are straying off-topic
Molobo, I agree with you (my grandfather had already fought on New Guinea - where he almost died - and Luzon. He would have been involved in an amphibious assault on the home islands of Japan, and I probably wouldn't be here.  But these discussions belong on the Dresden and Hiroshima talk pages, not here. --Jpbrenna 04:41, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
 * So true. I am going to delete the entire section in a few hours anyway. But, of course, if you like you can continue to bombard each other on your talk pages. Instead, I would rather you made an attempt to verify your claims, molobo. That would be on-topic. NightBeAsT 05:09, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Polish murders
Polish very loudly cry about Katyn. But why don't they cry about 60,000 bestialy martyred (by starvation and unbearable conditions) in Polish camps Bolshevik war prisoners in 1919 - 1922? Were these Russian peasants taken forced to the army by Bolsheviks somehow worse than the officials of Polish occupational administration of Western Ukraina, Western Bielorus and Eastern Lithuania? Icik Alpehovic 05:58, 17 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Well, you should not expect apologies for what not happened. The topos of Russian war prisoners killed en masse in Poland in 1920 is popular in Russian press, but it is hardly supported by any sources or fact. I've read all three books on the topic (that's right, three only: two monographies by Zbigniew Karpus and one by a Russian historian, I forgot her name) and the number of casualties quoted by Russian journalist (which you seem to repeat) seems too high several times. All in all, to make long thing short: if there were 60 thousand killed in the Polish camps (that is approximately half of all the POWs taken in that war), then:


 * 1) Why there is no trace of that in any archives?
 * 2) Why the USSR did not cry out loud about it, especially during the 50 years of occupation of Poland?
 * 3) Why is there no official Russian claim for such apologies?
 * 4) Why the cemeteries near the POW camps contain only roughly 8000 of dead?
 * 5) Why the only document to support brutal treatment of prisoners mention that "the prisoners were massacred by the guards and in the result two of the POWs were wounded"?
 * And so on. Also, the And you are lynching Negroes tactics is not really constructive, is it. Halibutt 06:35, August 17, 2005 (UTC)

To Micha
When will Poles officially apologize Lithuania for Eastern Lithuania and capital occupation in 1920 and full economic destruction of this territory in time of occupation (1920 - 1939)? Icik Alpehovic 06:23, 17 August 2005 (UTC)


 * No sooner than Lithuania will apologize for the current occupation of Polish Wilno ;) Also, Poland will surely apologize for the economic destruction of that area. Surely. You'll only have to prove that the area was indeed devastated economically... But seriously now, what is your agenda here? Halibutt 06:37, August 17, 2005 (UTC)

Dear fellows! I was talking about the relationship between Poles and Germans (not Lithuanians!) So this comment is completely out of topic. I don't know that much about the Polish-Lithuanian war... Micha.

Interesting source on traditional German antipolonism
Koch, Angela, Ph.D. Student Institut für Kunst- und Kulturwissenschaften, Humboldt-Universität zu Berlin, Germany

* The Relationship of Antipolonism and Sexism in German History (1870-1933/45) Should be added to article --Molobo 01:25, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
 * How about you post a link here?NightBeAsT 11:57, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

Giving the title and author along with the name of publisher is usually enough in Wiki. Molobo
 * A title says nothing. When Michael Moore published a book reading "Dude, where's my country?" does it mean the US has gone missing?NightBeAsT 13:58, 1 September 2005 (UTC)