Talk:Antigua and Barbuda/Archive 1

Language
The following statement is supposition and opinion. It is not fact :-

"In the years before Antigua and Barbuda's independence (in 1981), Standard English was widely spoken, but after independence, perhaps as a avenue of defiance Antiguan's taught themselves that speaking dialect was a part of their culture and that nothing at all was wrong with it."

It would be more objective to rewrite as :-

"In the years before Antigua and Barbuda's independence (in 1981), Standard English was widely spoken, but after independence use of the local dialact became more widespread."

Skinsmoke 14:16, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Repairs
I tried to do some repair of bad edits and copyvios, but it's probably incomplete. It's possible that the massive lift from antiguanice.com was done by the author of that site; if so, that needs to be said so on this talk page. (But note that its style is inappropriate to WP anyway, so text shouldn't go in verbatim anyway.) Stan 14:07, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

I need to know about the holidays!!!!

Request for comment on "royal" residence of the Governor-General
Editors of this article may wish to comment on the edits being made at Official residence, advancing the unusual view that the official residence of the Governor-General of Antigua and Barbuda, and those of her equivalents in other jurisdictions, are "royal" residences (i.e. official residences of the monarch), and that this aspect (assuming for the moment that it exists) deserves mention in a list of official residences, alongside "vice-regal", the somewhat opaque term being substituted for "Governor-General" and the like. -- Lonewolf BC 19:43, 15 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Note: User:Lonewolf BC is here omitting the point that the edits at Official residence are part of a broader cleanup of the article to create a uniform standard; "royal" and "vice-regal" in place of the specific Antiguan and Barbudian Monarch and Governor-General of Antigua and Barbuda brings the Antigua and Barbuda section into line with others which use (by other editors' contributions) "royal," "vice-regal," "presidential," "prime ministerial" and the like.
 * Comments are certainly welcome at Talk:Official residence to improve the article as a whole. --G2bambino 19:49, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

In regard to G's comment, I trust that you folks will forgive me for focussing on the issue. For your information, though, the "general cleanup" only began after the "royal" issue had arisen, though the two spread to the "Antigua and Barbuda" entry at the same time. Please judge for yourselves which actions have brought about which. (The "cleanup" is also making the article worse in some other ways, in my opinion. You may wish to look at that, also, but those are separate, or at most indirectly related issues.) -- Lonewolf BC 20:06, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Dispute with USA over gambling bans
Antigua and Barbuda have a dispute with the United States since 2003, claiming its ban against Americans gambling over the Internet violated Antigua and Barbuda’s rights as a member of the W.T.O. The W.T.O. panel ruled against the United States in 2004, and its appellate body upheld that decision one year later. In March, the organization upheld that ruling for a second time and declared Washington out of compliance with its rules.

Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/23/business/worldbusiness/23gamble.html?em&ex=1188014400&en=45639b242bae8fd2&ei=5087%0A

Should the dispute in WTO with USA be mentioned in the article?

Windoze80 07:56, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

I believe it should be mentioned in either this article or the foreign relations of Antigua and Barbuda article. It might even be worthy of its own article at some point in the future, since it is a relatively notable dispute. Nanten 13:18, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

I deleted happiness
I deleted this sentence and reference:
 * An independent scientific study ranked Antiugua and Barbuda as the 16th happiest country in the world. < /ref>

The cited document does not reference happiness. The access date may refer to just the continued existence of the page, not the reference to happiness. I checked only the current and 2006 versions of the head document. If the reference was to an older version, or to an ancillary document at that website, the line should be returned to the article with a correct cite, and with correct spelling.  Randall Bart    Talk   21:25, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Languages - Antiguan Accent
This line is very biased: Another example is: "Ent it?" meaning "Ain't it?" which is in itself dialect and means "Isn't it?". All variants are dialects. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.239.146.4 (talk) 21:49, 18 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Actually linguistic standards are dialects as well.--MacRusgail (talk) 13:45, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

A&B relation to the world
I am particularly curious about the relationship of the society of Antigua and Barbuda to the world at large. I would like to contribute with an image.Any questions please contact me. Thanks--Camilo Sanchez (talk) 05:54, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

Federation?
The article says that the county is a "Parliamentary democracy under a federal constitutional monarchy", but does not say anything about what it's federal units are. Parishes and dependencies don't seem like something that could possibly be a federal unit, but then again, what do I know? In any case, the article gives no data on this.--Mátyás (talk) 17:24, 3 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Maybe this was its status when it was still part of the Colony of the Windward Islands, 30 years ago and more; more likely it is an assertion based on a misunderstanding of the term. Either way, I can see no evidence that it is correct. Clause 1 of Chapter 1 of A&B's Constitution reads "Antigua and Barbuda shall be a unitary sovereign democratic State." The country's official web site describes Antigua and Barbuda as "a constitutional monarchy with a British-style parliamentary system of government". Neither of these descriptions suggests that the word 'federal' has any relevance to A&B. I suspect that, like the needless (and arguably inaccurate) description of A&B in this entry as a "twin-island nation", this problem may be based on the conviction among some people that there's something intrinsically wrong with the idea of a country with the word 'and' in its name, as if that's somehow 'cheating'. Like the American soccer fans who complained that it was 'unfair' that USA had to play a fixture against a team from Trinidad and Tobago. Grubstreet (talk) 08:32, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

Photos of Barbados
I removed several photos of places in Barbados, not Barbuda, in this article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.32.173.248 (talk) 22:31, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

External links modified
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Copyright problem removed
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Jehovah's Witnesses non Christian religion?
The wikipedia article on Jehovah's Witnesses defines them as "a millenarian restorationist Christian denomination with nontrinitarian beliefs distinct from mainstream Christianity". I think some re-editing has to be done here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.231.205.84 (talk) 22:31, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

Kudos
I find this line both accurate and extremely funny: "The Spaniards did not colonise Antigua because it lacked fresh water but not aggressive Caribs." Kudos to whoever wrote it! Avirr (talk) 20:31, 9 September 2017 (UTC)

Creole
How do you translate Antigua and Barbuda into Antiguan Creole? Electionworld Talk? 19:15, 3 September 2019 (UTC)

Pronunciation
I know this has probably been put here a thousand times before, but it might be worth changing the pronunciation at the beginning to list both an-tee-gwuh and an-tee-guh. It's said both ways, and often residents say the latter. That is obviously based upon personal experience, but this article from Canadian Geographic specifies this. Over time the pronunciation has changed, it was first an-tee-gwuh when the spanish were there, but the English who eventually controlled the island for a length of time said an-tee-guh.Browk2512 (talk) 01:04, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Mferras. Peer reviewers: Samm nielsen.

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Links
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Incorrect pegging of currency
One ECD does not equal 1 USD as indicated on this page - follow the link and you'll see it's 2.7:1.

Caribbean Wikipedians' notice board
I would like to announce the establishment of the Caribbean Wikipedians' notice board. Anyone with an interest in the Caribbean is welcome to join in. Guettarda 1 July 2005 03:39 (UTC)

http://www.talkAntigua.com - a good site for antigua discussions. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.135.111.67 (talk • contribs).

Edit war
I have fully protected the page to stop your edit warring. Any resumption of edit warring upon release of the protection could result in blocks for the offending parties. Please talk out your differences below instead, and seek dispute resolution if necessary. Ks0stm (T•C•G•E) 22:33, 25 March 2022 (UTC)
 * The inclusion of a Shield of Arms seems to be the heart of the matter. At this time I don't have a position on that, though I have reverted that portion of the article to the pre-edit-war state. I suggest the involved parties make your arguments here, and if you come to a stalemate, consider soliciting a third opinion or seek other forms of disupte resolution. OhNo itsJamie Talk 22:35, 25 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Is this even a real thing??? Moxy -Maple Leaf (Pantone).svg 23:22, 25 March 2022 (UTC)

Well according to my source, which I included in the article, it is. 123waawaaaa (talk) 23:29, 25 March 2022 (UTC)

I also remind you, most sources ignore Antigua and Barbuda, so, they mostly do not include this information. 123waawaaaa (talk) 23:30, 25 March 2022 (UTC)

The shield, without the coat of arms, is also used on the flag of the police force, and the symbol of the governor-general, among others, which proves it symbolizes the country. 123waawaaaa (talk) 23:54, 25 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Perhaps another question to ask is: is there precedent for usage that parameter in Template:Infobox country, or a convention that is used for other Commonwealth states? I just glanced through all of the Commonwealth nation pages; none had the shield; rather, they all have a flag and either a coat of arms or an emblem. I'd argue that adding another symbol is clutter and WP:UNDUE, unless sources can be provided that make the case that the shield is particularly salient to Antigua and Barbuda. OhNo itsJamie Talk 01:27, 26 March 2022 (UTC)

Now, I don’t really know how I could find a source that proves something is important to a country, is there any way you think I could do this? 123waawaaaa (talk) 03:30, 26 March 2022 (UTC)

"Twin-island state" listed at Redirects for discussion
An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Twin-island state and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 April 30 until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion.  Peter Ormond &#128172;  04:28, 30 April 2022 (UTC)

"Antigua-Barbuda-Redonda" listed at Redirects for discussion
An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Antigua-Barbuda-Redonda and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 April 30 until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion.  Peter Ormond &#128172;  04:31, 30 April 2022 (UTC)

Source needed for a translation of the official name.
For some reason, there is a citation needed tag on the Creole translation of “Antigua and Barbuda”. From my knowledge, there is no other nation article which has a source for a translation. I think this tag should be removed. CROIX (talk) 01:41, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Per WP:OTHERCONTENT, "The nature of Wikipedia means that you cannot make a convincing argument based solely on whether or not the same or similar content exists or is formatted similarly in some other page; this is because there is nothing stopping anyone from editing or creating any article".  Peter Ormond &#128172;  09:32, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

And yes, I know what I am saying because I am a speaker of Creole. CROIX (talk) 01:42, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Per WP:VERIFY, "All material in Wikipedia mainspace, including everything in articles, lists, and captions, must be verifiable. All quotations, and any material whose verifiability has been challenged or is likely to be challenged, must include an inline citation to a reliable source that directly supports the material".  Peter Ormond &#128172;  09:32, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

Sources: https://www.antiguabarbudaconsulate.com/antigua-and-barbuda https://barbudaful.net/barbudaful-history/history/ CROIX (talk) 11:45, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Both of these sources use the phrases "had the native Carib names" and "was given the name" which indicates that this name was used in the past. If these names are to be mentioned in the infobox, you must provide high quality reliable sources that say that the name is still in use today (present tense).  Peter Ormond &#128172;  12:09, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
 * And, another source I have is (if you cannot find it just look up the ISBN number) CROIX (talk) 19:58, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
 * What is the page number? Cite the quote where this has been explicitly stated.  Peter Ormond &#128172;  20:04, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Page 62. “Wadadli, the Creole name for Antigua.”
 * Page 63. “Wa’omoni, the Creole name for Barbuda” CROIX (talk) 00:58, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Those are the names of the individual islands, not the name of the country as a whole.  Peter Ormond &#128172;  08:10, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Page 62. “Wadadli, the Creole name for Antigua [extends onto next page 63] and, Wa’omoni, the Creole name for Barbuda is the name of Antigua & Barbuda in Creole.” I didn’t include all of it because it extended onto both pages, but yes, it was the name of the country as a whole. CROIX (talk) 19:31, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
 * It's WP:SYNTH.  Peter Ormond &#128172;  20:00, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Eh no, read it correctly: “Wadadli, the Creole name for Antigua [extends onto next page 63] and, Wa’omoni, the Creole name for Barbuda is the name of Antigua & Barbuda in Creole.” clearly implys that Wadadli and Wa’omoni is the name of Antigua and Barbuda in Creole. CROIX (talk) 01:51, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

Well, if you read the sources correctly, it says that the names are still used to this day. Although I’m not here to debate wether this is a language, I’m here to debate wether this tag should be used there. CROIX (talk) 19:46, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
 * It is unsourced, I challenged it, hence the tag must be there. And at these sources, nowhere is it written that these names are still use at the present. I suggest from next time, you should present quotes from the sources when content is challenged, instead of wasting other's time by repeating your same claims.  Peter Ormond &#128172;  20:04, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Why should a source be required? Look, there is no need to put a citation needed tag, because that’s like having to put a citation for a dictionary on every word you use to prove it means that. CROIX (talk) 01:01, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
 * My answer is the same: "It is unsourced, I challenged it, hence the tag must be there". Again per WP:VERIFY, "All material in Wikipedia mainspace, including everything in articles, lists, and captions, must be verifiable. All quotations, and any material whose verifiability has been challenged or is likely to be challenged, must include an inline citation to a reliable source that directly supports the material".  Peter Ormond &#128172;  08:10, 1 June 2022 (UTC)


 * I did a little Google searching. A search for "Wadadli and Wa'omoni" returned 348 results, none of them reliable. That is pretty strong evidence that the name is not used for the nation as a whole. —C.Fred (talk) 11:52, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
 * https://antiguanewsroom.com/nationals-at-home-and-abroad-link-up-to-discuss-covid-19-recovery-plans/amp/ CROIX (talk) 19:33, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
 * https://antiguaobserver.com/editorial-a-merry-christmas-to-all/ CROIX (talk) 19:34, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Clearly refers to Antigua and Barbuda as “Wadadli and Wa’omoni”. The Antigua Observer is Antigua and Barbuda’s largest newspaper. CROIX (talk) 19:36, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Then this restaurant refers to the country as Wadadli and Wa’omoni: https://yo-scotty-spices.business.site/ CROIX (talk) 19:39, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
 * How are these "multiple high-quality sources" as required by the Verifiability policy for exceptional claims?  Peter Ormond &#128172;  20:03, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Verifiability
 * Editors may also use material from reliable non-academic sources, particularly if it appears in respected mainstream publications. Other reliable sources include:
 * University-level textbooks
 * Books published by respected publishing houses
 * Magazines[ under discussion]
 * Newspapers (Which the Antigua Observer is, proof of the Antigua Observer being a newspaper is located here:, while the Antigua News Room is an online newspaper)
 * CROIX (talk) 01:59, 2 June 2022 (UTC)
 * @Peter Ormond CROIX (talk) 11:34, 2 June 2022 (UTC)
 * "Exceptional claims require exceptional sources" per WP:ECREE.  Peter Ormond &#128172;  11:38, 2 June 2022 (UTC)
 * @Peter Ormond These are high quality sources, this is because they are the largest news sources on the island. And, these are multiple sources (ANR and AO). CROIX (talk) 20:52, 7 June 2022 (UTC)
 * WP:ECREE gives an example of high-quality sources in ref 12.  Peter Ormond &#128172;  20:57, 7 June 2022 (UTC)
 * @Peter Ormond And I ask how this is an exceptional claim? CROIX (talk) 10:36, 10 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Most mainstream high-quality reliable sources do not mention this name. Also, Creole has no official status in Antigua and Barbuda. So, your claim is exceptional. <span style="font-family:'Linux Libertine','Georgia','Times',serif"> Peter Ormond &#128172;  15:11, 10 June 2022 (UTC)
 * First of all, neither does English, so should we remove the English translation? Second of all mainstream media? Those are both literally the largest news sources in Antigua and Barbuda? CROIX (talk) 23:32, 10 June 2022 (UTC)
 * This is the English Wikipedia. The English name will, in almost all cases, be included. —C.Fred (talk) 00:52, 11 June 2022 (UTC)
 * @C.Fred @Peter Ormond But that does not answer my first question, how is Antigua News Room and Antigua Observer not mainstream sources if they are the largest sources in the country? CROIX (talk) 15:21, 11 June 2022 (UTC)
 * The Antigua Observer piece is an editorial and excluded from use as a reliable source. The Antigua News Room piece notes that W&W was used in the theme of the event, but the name of the sponsoring organization calls the country A&B. Context makes clear neither that they are referring to the country and not the two islands nore that the name has any official standing. —C.Fred (talk) 15:40, 11 June 2022 (UTC)
 * And what about the book that clearly states it? Did you forget about that? CROIX (talk) 15:42, 11 June 2022 (UTC)
 * That was synthesis last week, and it still is this week. —C.Fred (talk) 15:45, 11 June 2022 (UTC)
 * @C.Fred What specifically? Last time I checked the book said “Wadadli, the Creole name for Antigua [extends onto next page 63] and, Wa’omoni, the Creole name for Barbuda is the name of Antigua & Barbuda in Creole.” CROIX (talk) 15:47, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

Proposal: remove Creole translation of the name
Although the Creole names of the islands are reliably sourced—and belong in articles on the islands—there are no reliable sources showing that Wadadli and Wa'omoni is used as a name for the nation. Accordingly, I recommend removing the unsourced name from the infobox entirely. —C.Fred (talk) 11:57, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Strong Support per nom. Also, per WP:EXCEPTIONAL, this claim requires "multiple high-quality sources", but there is not even one reliable source that supports the Creole name. <span style="font-family:'Linux Libertine','Georgia','Times',serif"> Peter Ormond &#128172;  12:07, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
 * If it is not the real name than don’t refer to it as the Creole name, I recommend rewording it as it seems you are referring to the language as “lesser”. CROIX (talk) 19:37, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
 * How does naming the language make it "lesser"? <span style="font-family:'Linux Libertine','Georgia','Times',serif"> Peter Ormond &#128172;  20:00, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
 * But you say it is not real, so don’t refer to it as Creole. CROIX (talk) 01:54, 2 June 2022 (UTC)
 * CROIX raises an additional point: official standing. Unlike Aotearoa, the Māori name that is used by the government of New Zealand in documents–and Māori is an official language of New Zealand–Creole does not have official standing in A&B. (English has no official standing either, per the language section of this article, but it is the working language of A&B.) —C.Fred (talk) 02:06, 2 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Yet most Caribbean articles also have their Creole language listed, for example Grenada and Dominica. It should also stay because this is the most spoken language in the country, and would represent the countries true demographic better. CROIX (talk) 11:34, 2 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Dominica has only the English name in the infobox. Grenada has the name in Grenadian Creole French in the infobox, but GCF is a recognized language in Grenada. —C.Fred (talk) 13:43, 2 June 2022 (UTC)
 * However, no source supports this? Why is Antiguan and Barbudan Creole any different? CROIX (talk) 20:50, 7 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Further, there is nothing in the article that indicates that Antiguan Creole is currently the most spoken language in the country. The article indicates that Standard (British) English was dominant pre-independence, that AC was shunned then, and that S(B)E is the working language of the country, but gives no indication of how many people speak Standard English v. Antiguan Creole currently. —C.Fred (talk) 13:48, 2 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Source that states Creole is the most spoken language in Antigua and Barbuda. https://www.mustgo.com/worldlanguages/creole-languages/ CROIX (talk) 10:52, 10 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Is a site pushing tourism-related commerce reliable? I don't see their editorial policy or their article sources. —C.Fred (talk) 12:29, 10 June 2022 (UTC)
 * And, even if it was not the most spoken language, it is still Antiguan and Barbudan Creole, its still from the country and is a native language. CROIX (talk) 23:30, 10 June 2022 (UTC)
 * May I have your comment on this? @C.Fred CROIX (talk) 11:53, 11 June 2022 (UTC)
 * It developed in the country but is not a native language, strictly speaking. —C.Fred (talk) 11:56, 11 June 2022 (UTC)
 * It is a native language, because it is a language from the country. CROIX (talk) 15:20, 11 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Not to mention the curious math problem: there are 100,000 residents of A&B and, per mustgo, 125,000 speakers of A&B Creole. —C.Fred (talk) 12:31, 10 June 2022 (UTC)
 * @C.Fred There are speakers in other countries as well, such as Saint Kitts, Montserrat, and others, if you read the article you would have known. CROIX (talk) 23:29, 10 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Their numbers were not broken out elsewhere. Hence my point: the source does not support the assertion that Creole is the most spoken language in A&B. —C.Fred (talk) 00:50, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

Reverts
I see that @Peter Ormond has decided to revert my edits? May I ask what the problem is this time? CROIX (talk) 12:48, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
 * You are continuing to add the same unsourced garbage, sometimes with poor or bogus sources. You have been told multiple times not to do so. Constantly engaging in edit-warring is disruptive. Instead, propose your additions here on the talk page, so that other editors can see whether that information is true or should be included. <span style="font-family:'Linux Libertine','Georgia','Times',serif"> Peter Ormond &#128172;  17:04, 8 July 2022 (UTC)