Talk:Antillia

Chaisson's book
Just added a mainstream media reference for Chaisson's book. Don't think it should be dismissed out of hand. 67.68.35.251 May 14 67.68.35.251 15:45, 14 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Just changed the Chaisson book reference. While his book should not be dismissed, this article should also emphasise the abundance of controversy over his writings, especially in Nova Scotia and among experts in Chinese studies Colonial Irony-- article by David S G Goodman Professor of Contemporary China Studies University of Technology, Sydney, AUS.

Local Nova Scotian--140.230.4.70 13:59, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Plutarch & Madeira
The georgeaphy of the pale described by Plutarch sounds like Madeira. If this theory is plausible, it should be noted in the article 141.166.153.104 (talk) 07:18, 2 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Aactually, the wikiepdia article of Madeira is one my side. Check it out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madeira#Pre-Portuguese_times 141.166.153.104 (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 07:19, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Ante Ilha
Does the interpretation of the name as Ante-Ilha ("Fore-island") belong here or at Antilles? -- Error 00:33, 21 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Passive voice and no references
I'm noting the pervasive use of the passive of nonattribution "was said to lie..." "was also identified with..." (by whom?) and the lack of any reference to any historical document in this entry ("A Portuguese legend tells..."), nor to any modern historian's discussion of the development of "Antillia". "The island is first known to have appeared on a map in 1424." Whose map? Where? Not avery good entry yet. --Wetman 06:08, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I agree with you. I could not identify e.g. the Arab geographer which used the explanation of the name as "Jezirat al Tennyn". But I have changed the first mentioning of the name "Antilia". Its name was used at first 1424 in the Pizzigano Chart.

--213.55.131.23 17:52, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

~ "Bishops embarked with their flocks"  "Flocks" as in real sheep or Flocks as in congregations? It matters.

____ "Real Sheep" - On an imaginary island? _____BTW: Nothing much matters. That which does matters little. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 27.32.163.173 (talk) 23:03, 13 December 2017 (UTC)

General clarification/detail
I believe Ante-Ilha should apply to both Antillia and Antilles, as the latter almost certainly derives from the former. Have clarified several vague references, most notably from Babcock's excellent book on the subject, "Legendary Islands of the Atlantic". Also added footnotes where relevant.--Virtualken (talk) 13:01, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

1421 Theory
Didn't Gavin Menzies write in his book 1421 that Antilia was in fact Puerto Rico, and had a Portugese settlement on it 50 years before Columbus' discovery of America? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Holy triple m (talk • contribs) 15:43, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Seven Cities of Gold
Til Eulenspiegel- apologies that you felt my creation of a new page on the Seven Cities of Gold was peremptive. It was created as a rather swiftly written draft, as I felt the two legends were sufficiently distinct to warrant separate entries. Although I've got a long history of drafting definitive entries- most of the original work here is my own- this was the first time I'd created a new page and was unaware of any informal protocol about discussion. The Antillia page seemed to be getting unwieldy, as it has such a rich history already. My edits were maybe rash, but I still feel the two ought to be distinct entries.--Virtualken (talk) 13:38, 22 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks for discussing it. I am not sure the Spanish and Portuguese legends are sufficiently distinct, they would seem to be only slight variants.  But I am willing to be flexible particularly if you could demonstrate why you feel they are sufficiently distinct to have separate entries.  As for "informal protocol", for future reference, you can use the  template to signal an intention to break off a new article.


 * Note, when I found this page it actually stated (among other things) that Cabeza de Vaca had conquered vast swathes of territory in the southwest -- which ought to make anyone who has ever read Naufragios die laughing! Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 14:06, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for opening up the discussion Til, and for the editing tips. I agree, when I first came to the article it seemed inaccurate and not at all well referenced. My research and interest was originally cartographic but soon led to an exploration, pardon the pun, of written sources regarding Antillia. My personal highlight was coming to a first edition of d'Anghiera's transcription of Columbus's diaries, to find that the appropriate index leaves were still sealed and having to request the librarian to open them!

My motivation in believing they were distinct enough to warrant separate entries was firstly that the cartographical record of Antillia seems to have evolved prior to the Portuguese landclaims. Those sources that I've read seem to amount to a cultural claim by the Portuguese, whereas the later Spanish records refer only to the Septe Cidades (eg Cornelius de Jode, 1593) on the mainland. At the same time Antillia was represented as a separate, smaller island at various locations in the Atlantic- leading to the latter confusion re: the Azores, Antillies, Puerto Rico etc. It seems to me that at this point some kind of diplomatic treaty had been agreed between the two nations- hopefully someone might enlighten me here- resulting in the eventual formalising of their respective settlements on the continent.

So my understanding really was that whilst the Antillia and Sete Ciudades legends coincided, they represented a historic European cultural and religious settlement as territorial claim, rather than the later (Spanish) tradition of the Seven Cities as native, 'wealthy' settlements ripe for plunder by the conquistadors to justify the costs of sponsoring their voyages. Hope that you might agree. --Virtualken (talk) 14:04, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

Til- Not sure if you've been indisposed- or whether you've read the case above. Unless I hear otherwise I can only assume that you're happy with the reasons above, and hope to distill the SCoG info onto its own page next week (wc 7/12/09).--Virtualken (talk) 12:41, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Mérida 1150?
In 1150 Mérida was under Muslim rule since 713, although this one-time important Roman town has gone perhaps into decline after the foundation of Badajoz by the Muslim conquerors. Perhaps in 1150 there were some troubles with what in Spanish we call "almohades" (from the Arabic "al-Muwahhidun")(see Almohad dynasty)), puritan Muslims from Northern Africa. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.81.200.3 (talk) 18:48, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
 * By the way, Mérida was the ancient capital of Lusitania. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.85.2.56 (talk) 17:49, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

Mumbai Antillia
Probably needs a disambigulation page I would say, but at the moment there aren't many categories- Antillia (legendary island), Antilia (home), Antilles (Caribbean islands)... Captain Antilles (Star Wars character)? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Virtualken (talk • contribs) 19:45, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

Article Revamped
I found the opening paragraph too big, with too much detailed information. In an the process of shifting much of that text from the heading to the main body, I kind of got carried away and revised a substantial part of the article. I don't think my changes modify the content substantively. The changes are:


 * 1) The heading paragraph is slimmed down to its essentials.
 * 2) I swapped the order, so that the legend comes before the cartography.
 * 3) I begin with a quick summary about Atlantic island legends in general. A few may feel it has insufficient inline references, but such references are found in abundance in the specific wiki articles on the Fortunate isles, Canaries, St. Brendan, etc. I am just summarizing those articles.
 * 4) the etymology is compacted into one section, bringing the ante-ilha theory first.

I have also added numerous new references, including linking passages to texts in googlebooks. (check the footnotes).

I will be revamping the latter part of the article soon to eliminate duplication of earlier information (should have done that already, but had to save my changes before I lost them). I am also compiling an exhaustive list of 15th maps which depict Antillia. These will be coming shortly. Just want to give you all a heads up before I proceed. Walrasiad (talk) 00:05, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

"Legend" section
Um, why does the legend section spend several paragraphs discussing the general phenomenon of mythical islands? IIUC, Antillia is a specific myth, and has no connection with, for example, Atlantis. 24.7.113.167 (talk) 01:39, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

''The names of some real islands re-emerged as distinct mythical islands with associated legends, e.g. capraria (the island of goats) and canaria (the island of dogs) are often found on maps separately from the Canary Islands (e.g. Pizzigani brothers, 1367). '' But on the Pizzigani map it says "Capricia", not "Capraria". Naming an island on a map "Capricia" might be a hint that it's an invention, a capriccio. (Capraria is Capraia).--2.204.227.63 (talk) 05:18, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

Etymology
Really, this is a no brainer: Antilha is truly Portuguese: Ante + Ilha (Before + Island). I must add that "Antília" or "Antilia" is also archaic Portuguese in which Ília = Ilha = Island. In some dialects of Portuguese when people speak too fast they'll say "Ília" instead of "Ilha" meaning Island. Everybody understands that. It's pretty usual to replace an "lh" form for an incorrect "li" form. The "Lhe" sound is usually used added at the end of words to denote that it refers to a third person. For instance: He gave = Ele deu He gave her = Ele deu-lhe The sound "li" instead of "lh" will appear often as a common mistake in the Portuguese language because "lh" is refering to a specific people when not refering to a specific people, with the subject ommited or speaking in general, the sound "lh" is replaced by "le" or "la" more often. So, uneducated people often confuse the tems.

Also, really: Ante-Ilha does not mean the island that is opposite. It means the island that comes before (eventually, America). For instance: ANTEpassado = Ancester = Those before the (most recent) past (geneologically speaking). ANTEontem = The day before yesterday. ANTEcipação = Antecipation = Before the "happening". ANTigo = Ancient = From latin, before the ego, before myself.

ANTES is the word that this ANT(E)- perfix derives from. ANTES means literally "before". Antes is the word for "before". Thus, Antilha is definitely Portuguese for "the Island that appears before". Before what? I don't know, but the North American landmass is the most probable thing. Especially when we consider that by the 1420s the Portuguese in the Azores already knew that there had to be a landmass beyond the Ocean because: 1) Birds flew to the West from the Azores and East to the Azores from the West. 2) The people of the Azores noted that vegetal canes would wash up in the shores of the Azores coming from the West. They called it the land of the canes that give (to the shore). All this can be verified. By the way, canes that give in Portuguese is Cana (que) dá. The Portuguese people in the Azores were speaking of the Land of Canadá pretty much since they settled there and found canes (cana) giving (dá) to the shore. Antilha would be the Island-before (Ante-Ilha) the Land of the Canes (that) Give (Cana (que) dá).

Read Gaspar Frutuoso for more details. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 148.71.87.106 (talk) 21:34, 3 July 2019 (UTC)


 * Not sure where you are getting your information. There were no Portuguese in the Azores in the 1420s. The islands were uninhabited at that time.  And "Canada" is just the Iroquois term for "settlement", as noted already in Cartier's journal of 1534. The term was not seen before that. Not sure what Frutuoso has to do with this - he only wrote decades later - but I would be glad to see a reference to this fanciful etymology. Walrasiad (talk) 00:56, 5 July 2019 (UTC)

Antilia: commonwealth, empire or a neo-Visigothic kingdom?
The article quotes a 1911 'Encyclopedia Britannica' entry about Antilia which states that A. became an utopian commonwealth in stories. I have researched in the internet with every keyword possible all written references for Antilia from 15th to 21st centuries. Those that date from the period when belief in A. in its original location was current, that is, until early 15th century, hardly speak about the political system. However, the Behaim map mentions the seven bishops only, implying a that a sort of church-state was set up, but another mappamundi inscription (Ruysch 1508?) mentions the island as an abode of the defeated king Roderick of Spain, implying that it became a neo-Visigothic kingdom ruled by him. Some modern books call A. 'a refuge kingdom' founded by Iberian Christians and Westropp in his 'Brasil and other legendary islands in the Atlantic' calls it a 'refuge of the Gothic kings' again implying it to be a neo-Visigothic rump state. There is also a 17th century source stating that seven captains voyaged to the island with settlers and divided the island into seven domains (might they therefore be termed 'captaincies'?). Besides, the Visigothic governor (called capitão in old Portuguese sources) Sacaru, mentioned in this article, as a leader of the expedition to the island would presumably have became the leader of the new state as well, and considering he was a contemporary of Pelayo of Asturias, whom wikipedia calls a 'princeps' and king, he would most likely have been so styled as well. Also, an account of two Franciscan friars supposedly stranded on the island in July 1668 mentions it to be ruled by a very old king. This story one Portuguese researcher considers to be Sebastianist, and that the king was the exiled, 115-year old Sebastian of Portugal. Finally, an Azorean amateur historian and hydrologist, Armando da Cunha Narciso, in his 1932 'Terra Açoriana: Monografia rómantica' calls Antilia an 'oceanic empire' peopled by pious Christians and also suggests it was ruled by Tartarax, whom he in 'Possibilidades geográficas de turismo no arquipélago dos Açores. Boletim da Sociedade de Geografia de Lisboa' (1946) calls 'Imperador'. After googling 'Tartarax' I learned that the name refers to a mythical Indian cazique/emperor/king supposedly ruling Quivira, one of the Seven Cities of Gold in America, about which a Spanish chronicler in 1517 stated that they were founded by the seven bishops fleeing from Porto, just like Antilia. It seems that da Cunha Narciso has therefore confusedly thought Tartarax, a ruler in the American continent to be an emperor of the Island of Seven Cities or Antilia (he uses the latter name when talking about Tartarax and the empire). After aforementioned evidence, I suggest that the article be edited to include the mentions that A. was viewed as a neo-Visigothic refuge kingdom, as well as an independent exile kingdom of Sebastian, an oceanic empire and finally as a clericocracy ruled by an Archbishop or two, depending on the version, and six bishops each with their own diocese. I am willing to edit the article, if my conclusions are agreed upon.

RRR RRR (talk) 08:59, 21 March 2020 (UTC)