Talk:Antioch/Archive 1

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Census from Roman Times
Could the writer of this article, or someone else knowledgeable, provide me with a source on the population of the city being around 500.000 in the Roman era, if possible with a distinction between the number of free people and of slaves? I do not especially doubt the statement, since the figures I have gathered from various sources range wildly from ca. 100.000 to ca. 450.000, but whether or not slaves are included in the number usually accounts for such fluctuations with regard to population figures of ancient and classical cities. --Santetjan 9 July 2005 18:46 (UTC)


 * I don't have such a source (unless you count a brief mention in the old Catholic Encyclopedia http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01570a.htm, or its being drawn with a double circle on several maps in Colin McEvedy's "Penguin Atlas of Ancient History"), but Antioch was clearly one of the two most important cities of the Roman East (three after the foundation of Constantinople), down to the Arab conquest. AnonMoos 03:53, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

other uses template
Why, oh why, must we clutter up the top of the article with rubbish? The other uses template might not be the correct solution for every article. I have no probelm with that. The text as-is, however, uses the word "Antioch" three times. Woe is me! Tedernst | talk 05:09, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Indeed, when I first changed it to Otheruses, Antioch was actually mispelled once! And it's not just repetition, almost every word is duplicated in the very next sentence (the lede). Bad form. Excrable editting.
 * William Allen Simpson 13:00, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

I see that several others have applied the same analysis, and it currently is Otherplaces.
 * William Allen Simpson 13:20, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

Why revert?
Why the article was reverted to a clearly inferior form?--RafaelG 16:36, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

cleanup
TodorBozhinov has applied the cleanup tag. I suggest that the text on modern Antakya be moved into its own article. Many historical cities have their own pages.--William Allen Simpson 13:20, 17 December 2005 (UTC)


 * That's a good idea. In addition we should seriously review the EB1911 text that this article was sadly based on. It takes 10 seconds to cut and paste blocks of EB1911 text, and years to "cleanup". --Stbalbach 18:26, 17 December 2005 (UTC)


 * OK, initial Antakya stub split done. --William Allen Simpson 00:40, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

I made some changes in the early history, added info on the archaeological excavations and did some other miscellaneous moving around and cleanup - I hope this is a good start. The middle of the article still needs some major pruning and cleanup, as Stbalbach mentioned above. HVH 13:23, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Map Request
In the Requested Maps section of the community portal, I found a request for a map noting the position of Antioch within turkey. I've made one, but before I post it I would like to make sure that it is the correct Antioch, and that the map is the correct color/style/etc. If any contributor to this article could point me in the right direction, it would be appreciated. --CommKing 21:19, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Judging by the date of the last post to this talk page, I'm attaching the map now. I will make edits if they are requested. --CommKing 21:48, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

It's accurate but I had to get out my atlas because I've never seen Turkey portrayed like that. It would be helpful if the water surrounding Turkey was colored blue and the surrounding land black (it's all black currently and hard to see that Antioch is on the sea). -- Stbalbach 00:07, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Okay, I'm working on it now. --CommKing 20:32, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Here's a new copy. I cannot gaurantee perfect accuracy on the western Caspian Sea border. Tell me what you think. --CommKing 21:00, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Yeah a lot easier on the eyes, thanks! -- Stbalbach 21:26, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm taking off the Requested Map template. --CommKing 16:36, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Vandalism
I'm having difficulty understanding why this article is such a vandalism magnet... AnonMoos 02:44, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Arab Period
Something is missing from the last sentence of the Arab Period section. "Muslims believe it will be found...." I can't tell what it refers to. Maybe a sentence is missing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.111.115.217 (talk) 04:31, August 29, 2007 (UTC)

I have deleted the following sentence at the end of the Arab Period section: "Muslims believe that it will be found by Mahdi near the end of times in the city of Antakya or Antioch." As I mentioned above on August 29, 2007, something seems to be missing from this sentence; i.e., the object that the word "it" refers to, which will be found in Antioch by (the) Mahdi at the end of times. Four months have passed, and no one has supplied the missing element. Personally, I'm very curious to know what it is. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.111.123.49 (talk) 19:17, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Local inhabitants
During the hellenistic/roman period were the original inhabitants Greeks or from the Luwians, Lycians...I'm looking into roman history and the antiochene people(then)...any info.?Domsta333 (talk) 10:43, 4 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Antioch was the western capital of the Seleucid empire, and soon became a major trade hub and grew to have a population approaching or exceeding 100,000 (one of only 2 or 3 cities in the whole Europe and middle east region to do so in the Hellensitic period). So the answer is that it was a cosmopolitan city, attracting individuals from far and wide... AnonMoos (talk) 12:27, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Antioch/Antakya
Mr. Simpson, I don't want us to make a mess of the version history so I thought maybe we should discuss on here about when this article should make it's initial reference to Antakya. I really think splitting it into a separate article was an excellent idea on your part. You're probably very familiar with the subject but I just looked at both the articles, and to somebody unfamiliar with this bit of history, there's a fair amount of reading to be done before they make the connection between Antioch and Antakya. It seems to me that the relation is fairly important if the subjects of the articles were similar enough that they used to be one! Maybe you could suggest some wording for how to weave the Antakya reference into the introduction (I also put one to Antioch in the Antakya article, since its likewise important). My ideas go something along the lines of: "..., (a(n) ancient/classical (Hellenic/Greek/Syrian?) city located on the same site as) present/modern day (Turkish?) Antakya,..." Forgive the computer scientesque notation. That leaves quite a few combinations. Have you got any other ideas? Adam Mathias 02:26, 24 January 2006 (UTC)


 * This is an article about an ancient city that is near to a modern one. They aren't actually on the same site (although the modern one is overtaking the ancient one).


 * Had you more experience working on articles of this region, you'd know that sticking a modern word in the translation at the top is frowned upon. Sometimes, there are a series of cities on/near the same site. Each city (with enough historical information) gets its own page.  The "See also" at the end references the others.  That's what "See also" means.


 * Also, you'd know that there is some sensitivity about where in a modern article to begin references to ancient names. After many revert wars, the general consensus is that ancient names in a modern article are not mentioned except in a section labeled "History", not at the top.


 * This is especially sensitive here, as the Greek "Antioch on the Orontes" and Medieval Ecclesiatical Latin "Syrian Antioch" is located in an area disputed between modern Syria and modern Turkey. The Turks are entirely rational in finding the church latin name offensive.
 * --William Allen Simpson 12:33, 25 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I just read on anohter page in here that the dispute between Syria and Turkey was resolved in 2005. I made some edits just b/c I could not figure out what was going on just by reading the intro paragraphs, I hope I did not step on any toes by moving a link to the modern day city into the 1st para and saying that its an historic city, now extinct, that also had that latin name unsigned 69.107.125.159


 * That's better, but then the See also has to be removed per WP:Section. Done.
 * --William Allen Simpson 17:11, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

Antakya is not a city located in the same spot as antioch, it is Antioch, after evolving for nearly two millenia. London may be located at the same spot as Londinium, since Londinium was effectivelly abandoned during the saxon invasions; or Mexico city to Tenochtitlan since this latter city was totally destroyed, but antioch never ceased to be an important city, and since it never died, it lives still today as Antakya. Nobody will say that modern London is a city located on the same site as medieval London, I suppose. 84.91.76.45 (talk) 13:53, 6 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Actually, both London and Antioch have gone through periods of strong decline, when they weren't really important cities... AnonMoos (talk) 11:39, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Striking relations with Lithuania and Balts
Zeus Bottiaeus in Lithuanian language 'Dzevs Botiaus' means God of our ancestors...Aleksandras in Lithuanian language 'A(t)lek(e)s Antras' means born second and Macedon 'Manke Duona' means knead bread...Hun in Lith. 'Gunas/ganytojas' means pastor/shep-herd and Atila 'Eitila' means going/runing the office —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.151.173.120 (talk) 05:11, 28 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes, we know Lithuanian is an Indo-European language, and in some respects a "conservative" Indo-European language (considering that its first substantial attestation is in the medieval period). But that doesn't mean that there's any special relationship between Greece and Macedonia, and none of the etymologies you proposed have any direct relationship to Antioch... AnonMoos (talk) 07:35, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

old talk (may be unsigned, unsorted, un-titled)
I noticed that in both articles Antioch's history ended with the Crusades. What happened since 1300? How did it's name change? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.191.218.218 (talk) 22:10, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Patriarch of Antioch
The article says Antioch remains the seat of one of the Eastern Orthodox patriarchs. But I have read that the Patriarch of Antioch is now located in Damascus, Syria (see (about an Antiochian Orthodox bishop charged with groping a woman in a casino)). And if he's in Syria, why does he continue to be called the "Patriarch of Antioch"? Michael Hardy 23:50, 14 Oct 2003 (UTC)


 * Response: As I noted in the article itself, the Eastern Orthodox Patriarch of Antioch indeed resides in Damascus, but retains the title "Patriarch of Antioch."  Patriarchal headquarters were moved to Damascus presumably because the Syrians were more hospitable than the Turks.


 * The name Antioch still has prestige in terms of Christian history, but the city has had a very checkered history, and Antioch hasn't been any kind of real Christian population center for a very long time (and the Greek Patriarchate was headquartered in Damascus even under the late Ottoman Empire, according to http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01567a.htm ). AnonMoos 03:53, 19 September 2005 (UTC)


 * See Patriarch of Antioch. Find out about all five patriarchs!Student7 (talk) 11:59, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Gibbon
Interesting to read Gibbon for history. I don't know about his conclusions though. Most English of the period, even scholarly ones, were judgmental and therefore maybe not believable in their analyses. Student7 (talk) 13:00, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Library
I attempted to include a reference to a library in Antioch. I included a link (http://libaniusredux.blogspot.com/2008/04/museion.html) to a History blog, the same history blog that is included at the bottom of the page under "external links"(Antiochepedia - Musings Upon Ancient Antioch). This link at this same history blog, mentions several historical references to a library at Antioch, but someone keeps taking this out of this article. I have read several other mentions of a Library at Antioch, aside from this link, elsewhere, though I cannot remember them. Still as I've said, this link does include several historic quotes and references, which I've seen as being sufficient for other articles here on antiquity, yet someone seems to not want it included here, why not?24.177.153.2 (talk) 10:36, 18 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I've deleted the blog as per WP:EL which basically says no links to blogs except in some rare cases when they are by an established expert. We are even stricter about citations, see WP:RS. Your link was twice deleted by a 'bot' going through articles and deleting links that don't meet our guidelines. Dougweller (talk) 13:49, 18 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Did you look at your talk page? Dougweller (talk) 13:50, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

I wish someone could find an online source for an ancient library in Antioch. I have read of it in several books but I don't know of any online source mentioning it. 24.177.159.68 (talk) 06:54, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Antioch was a capital of Armenia (95-77 B.C.)
After Tigranes_the_Great has joined Seleucid empire to Armenia, Antioch became capital of the Armenian Kingdom untill he founded Tigranakert as a new one. Hence Antioch was a capital of Armenia since 95 to 77 years B.C. This fact recorded in every normal, unadulterated (non-Turkish, non-Azeri) books of a History. And it was needless to semiprotect the page because of somebody dislikes Armenia's right to its own history. Thanks for listening. 178.78.172.250 (talk) 21:48, 20 May 2011 (UTC)


 * Yes, Antiok is on the wikipedia list Historic capitals of Armenia and comes up in a lot of references, but seems to be missing from the template. Student7 (talk) 19:47, 21 May 2011 (UTC)


 * The template was added days ago by some IP, presumably the same which also added that speculation to Historic capitals of Armenia. There is nothing in the article that would hint such a thing as Antioquia being an "historical capital of Armenia", quite the opposite indeed. It says the city was once conquered by Armenia and remained *15* years under Armenian control. This is nothing near as being an "historical capital".--Darwinius (talk) 23:57, 21 May 2011 (UTC)


 * I'm not going to try to point anyone to a reference, but try "Antioch" and "capital" -wikipedia and see what comes up. A lot of verifiable references. Not something I was tremendously interested in until someone started deleting this information. Student7 (talk) 20:03, 22 May 2011 (UTC)


 * I don't know whatever you have been looking at (and you don't want to say what it is, as well), but it never happened. Have a look at this, for instance. And the questioned information was not "deleted". It was added some days ago by some IP. Unsourced, of course.--Darwinius (talk) 23:28, 22 May 2011 (UTC)


 * Well, a Wikipedia editor thinks it was once the Syrian capital. Not the Armenian capital. See Antioch which needs cite anyway. This says it as well, Syrian capital ref. capital of province of Syria.
 * Okay. I guess I should have actually examined these references. Antioch was too important (?) to be a mere capital of Armenia back when, but it was the capital of Syria at least once.
 * So technically it was a capital, just not the capital city of Armenia. Student7 (talk) 22:11, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

Just what modern application does this view of the area by Ortelius provide?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ortelius_Daphne_Antioch.jpg It seems to me that the artist or geographicer posited only the position of the "upper crust" of the area, I.e., the location of the homes and other structures of the "rulers". Have any excavations uncovered any of this?If this view has no historical value, then why is it presented?96.19.152.171 (talk) 20:55, 2 August 2013 (UTC)Ronald L. Hughes, Long Beach, MS


 * This is "Daphne", not Antioch. Portrayal by Ortelius based on his research into that ancient town, and possibly a sketch by a friend. I think we can safely rm it from this article. Student7 (talk) 16:09, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Julian
The Julian section is largely based on taking works by later Christians, who were opposed to him at face value. Some of it makes no sense, for example, "The irony of Julian's enthusiasm for large scale animal sacrifice could not have escaped the hungry Antiochenes" - ancient sacrifices were eaten by those present; alongside their spiritual functions, they were a way of distributing food to the masses. Furius (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 00:12, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

Languages
I could not add the link to the French page Antioche, which contains also the historical part. An error message came. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SteveMTN (talk • contribs) 09:47, 16 January 2016 (UTC)

Meroe vs Meroë: Link to Wikipage incorrect
The link to Meroe seems to be incorrect.

Through this redirect https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Meroe&redirect=no it leads readers to the article on the Kushite place with the same/similar name, spelled either "Meroe" or "Meroë".

There appears to be no appropriate Wikipage for the intended target. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Plushtigger (talk • contribs) 07:06, 23 July 2016 (UTC)