Talk:Antisemitism in 21st-century France

This article is wrong.
This article is completely stupid (sorry for those who wrote it).

It is said that there is a rise of antisemitism in France. Yet, it is written this:

In 2004, antisemitic incidents peaked, and by 2006 the number had fallen.[5] In 2008, 474 antisemitic acts were reported. In 2009, 832 (including 631 in the first half), in 2010, 466 and, in 2011, 389 acts of antisemitism were reported.[10] Of the 389 acts in 2011, there were 260 threats (100 graffitis, 46 flyers or mails, 114 insults) and 129 crimes (57 assaults, 7 arsons or attempted arsons, 65 deteriorations and acts of vandalism).

So, since 2006, these acts have been more and more rare. Moreover, over a half are stupid things like graffitis, flyers... Do you really think it is enough to say there is a rise of antisemitism in 21st-century France? How was it when Jews were persecuted in Vichy regime or during the 19th century when a man, Captain Dreyfus, was arrested and jailed mostly because of Jewish origins?

You cannot say there is a rise of antisemitism in the French society, while in the same time: - all French political parties and organization, even far-right Front National have condemned strongly antisemitism. - when the representatives of the Jewish community invite every year all high political personalities for a gala dinner. - when you have seen the number of demonstrations in support of tolerance after the terrible shooting in Toulouse by mass-murderer Mohammed Merah.

And you cannot say there is a rise of antisemitism because you have three stories from newspapers talking about an antisemitic act. Why? Is there no antisemitic act in the US? Britain, etc??? Do we say there is a rise of antisemitism in these countries aswell?

This page should be deleted. It is completely irrelevant to what happens in France today. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 218.1.38.114 (talk) 05:39, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

Lead
The lead should be replaced. See WP:LEAD. 184.75.33.92 (talk) 22:49, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
 * What do you propose to replace it with? -- Jethro  B  04:16, 1 November 2012 (
 * I've edited it fairly heavily (see later Talk para.) which may address the issue, whatever it was Chrismorey (talk) 03:15, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

List of antisemitic events and lead
The section about Acts of antisemitism should be rewritten. Many things listed there don't really have any encyclopedic value, especially among the incidents that have happened since March 2012. We should focus on the most significant events or just give an analysis or a quote that we can found in reports about antisemitism.

For the lead, an increase of what compared to what? If it is antisemitic incidents and crimes compared to the 1980s and 1990s, it is probably true but if we compare the 21st century with the 20th century (which may seem logic considering the name of the article) or if we are talking about the level of antisemitism in the general population, increase doesn't make any sense. I can write another introductive sentence if nobody objects. Eleventh1 (talk) 17:29, 26 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Definitely needed improvement, as does the body of the article. It provides too few facts and context, instead focusing on specific events.Parkwells (talk) 18:37, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:3D Test of Antisemitism which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 10:31, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Un-encyclopaedic essay style
The lead of this article was written like (perhaps copied from?) an essay. I've deleted the verbosity and the general comments, which IMO could be read as holding antisemitism to be a reasonable response to the actions of the State of Israel. The meaning of some of it defeats me, and I hope I've left the references in the right place. The same may be true of the body of the article, but I have neither the time nor the inclination to edit it. Chrismorey (talk) 03:13, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

Don't just list incidents
Per Wikipedia policy, do not just list recent or not clearly noteworthy antisemitic incidents. see Talk:Antisemitism_in_the_United_States for more details of this. Thanks. - Dan Eisenberg (talk) 16:02, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
 * That RFC was for the United States. This article is about France.  Maybe what you want is an RFC for this article?  In any event, you have been reverted twice already by various users, please cease and desist of your blanking out of large, well-sourced portions of the article until consensus is reached.  Thanks.  XavierItzm (talk) 14:52, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
 * I do not see any meaningful distinction between the application of the Wikipedia policies here versus as unanimously applied to the US article. If you see such a distinction which should be considered, please do bring it here to the talk page. We should not have to do a new RFC and waste time and resources unless there is a different argument that applies to this page for some reason I am missing. -Dan Eisenberg (talk) 15:38, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
 * What "scarcity of resources" is there in Wikipedia? The argument is being made out of whole cloth to censor out information on this page.  If you wish to do an RFC for this page, do one.  Otherwise, you are just blanking out 6K+ of well-sourced, well-written text for no valid reason.   XavierItzm (talk) 17:43, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Who said anything about "scarcity of resources"?? I don't see what that has to do with the argument. Please see the RFC that I reference above and you will read clear justification for why these items are inappropriate for wikipedia and how other experienced editors agreed with me. Specifically these lists violate WP:NOTNP and WP:RECENT. Again, there is clear precedent saying that these lists should not be included. If you feel this situation is different, please let us know how and we can discuss. Thanks. -Dan Eisenberg (talk) 18:54, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Your repeated mass deletions violate WP:DISRUPT. If you think this article is overburdened with incidents, create a list of such incidents in a subsection.  Or create narrative sections where the information can be retained in an informative way.  Beware WP:OWN.E.M.Gregory (talk) 19:51, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
 * All of the incidents are inappropriate by wikipedia standards and this has already been agreed with on the other talk page I have referenced. I am improving the article by making it consistent with wikipedia standards. Your lack of engagement with these standards makes it hard to have a discussion. Can you tell me why you think WP:NOTNP and WP:RECENT do not apply here when it was agreed upon that they applied for similar edits on the US page? -Dan Eisenberg (talk) 20:09, 24 August 2016 (UTC)


 * I provided ans sourced context. It wasn't hard.E.M.Gregory (talk) 20:38, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Just because content is sourced does not mean it is appropriate for wikipedia. Have you read WP:NOTNP and WP:RECENT? - Dan Eisenberg (talk) 20:42, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
 * I suggest taking a step back from this discussion and simply open up a new RfC. Clearly other users disagree with removing the content. Why don't you start a new RfC to allow uninvolved users to weigh in? Meatsgains (talk) 02:29, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

RfC on recent incidents

 * The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

There is disagreement about whether the article should include lists of individual recent antisemitic incidents. I have argued that these are not noteworthy according to wikipedia standards because Wikipedia is not a newspaper WP:NOTNP and this seems like a list of recent and not particularly noteworthy or historically significant anti-semitic incidents. Also see WP:RECENT. I think the content in question will not pass the ten-year test. Other editors disagree with me but we seem to be consistently talking past each other, and it would be good to have some additional eyes on this. See above discussion on Talk:Antisemitism in 21st-century France and a previous similar RfC at Talk:Antisemitism_in_the_United_States. The specific text in question is:

2015 attacks
During the January 2015 Île-de-France attacks, one of the three gunmen killed four persons in the Porte de Vincennes siege and took hostages at a kosher supermarket. French forces killed all three attackers involved in four different shooting incidents. In the aftermath of the attacks, for which responsibility was claimed by Al-Qaeda, the French government increased the presence of soldiers outside prominent Jewish buildings. In February 2015 soldiers guarding a Jewish community center in Nice were attacked and wounded, none fatally.

On 24 October in Marseilles, three Jewish men outside a synagogue were stabbed by a man shouting anti-Jewish slogans. One of the victims sustained serious abdominal wounds; he was expected to survive. The assailant was apprehended.

On 18 November 2015 in Marseilles, a teacher was stabbed by three men who shouted anti-Jewish slogans; one of the men wore an ISIS T-shirt.

2016 attacks
In the third incident in Marseilles since October, on January 12, 2016 Benjamin Amsellem, a teacher, was attacked outside a Jewish school by a teenage boy wielding a machete. The attacker claimed to be acting in the name of ISIS. Amsellem used a large Bible he was carrying to fend off the attack. The attacker was a Kurdish Muslim whose family had emigrated five years before to France from Turkey. He was an excellent student from a stable, pious home. French authorities speculated that he had self-radicalized by spending long hours reading Islamist websites; no ties were found with existing terrorist organizations.

On August 18 in Strasbourg, a "confirmed anti-semite" shouted "allahou akbar" (allah is great, in English), as he attacked a 62 year-old Jew wearing a kippa on avenue des Vosges. The attacker had previously knifed another jew in 2010 in Kléber square. The French Minister of the Interior, Bernard Cazeneuve, called the rabbi of Strasbourg to express his "solidarity." The attacker was said to have a history of mental problems. The attacker was charged the following day with «attempted murder because of the victim's appearance belonging to a race or religion>> ».

Thank you. -Dan Eisenberg (talk) 05:32, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
 * you could show good faith by adding this to categories including politics and history.E.M.Gregory (talk) 17:20, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Sure. Just added those categories--they seem like good venues as well. Thanks for the suggestion.-Dan Eisenberg (talk) 18:23, 25 August 2016 (UTC)


 * Keep or move to a list of anti-Semitic incidents in 21st century France created for the purpose. Each of these indicents is well-substantiated by RS. Together they serve to substantiate and illustrate the theme of the article and subhead.  E.M.Gregory (talk) 17:10, 25 August 2016 (UTC)


 * Comment: The flow of this article is very out of whack. The 2002 uptick is followed immediately by 2015/2016 events. What happened in between? Well, after this uptick, the number of incidents appears to fluctuate wildly (as shown in chart one, EU report). I think if we do include these recent incidents, we should do so only if we provide context for what happened between 2002-2015. Otherwise I'd say the OP's concerns with WP:NOTNP remain valid. This article necessarily straddles a fine line with recentism given that we're still early in the century. However I don't think the content involved in this RfC necessarily needs to be removed (as it is both well-sourced and germane), but without context for events in the previous decade, its historical significance is muddled and pushes POV. The reader can't tell what the trends really are, because giving a few high-profile cases after "uptick" gives the impression that things got much worse over that time (post 9-11, pre-ISIS/Syrian refugee crisis), when from what we can tell this isn't really clear. The "Public Opinion" section describes polling stats during these years, but the "Extent" section does not reflect attacks/events during this same time, which seems to be the main problem. IMO, no further 2015/2016/2017 content should be added until the 2002-2014 content is fleshed out. I went through some academic sources and it looks like in 2005 France and EU countries developed more complex research programs into antisemitism, so that would be one place to start. OT: shouldn't the "Responses" section be in chronological order, not reverse? /end prolix. @E.M.Gregory, I largely agree, but think it would be preferable if we could improve this article without spinning this off into a list. <> Alt lys er svunnet hen (talk) 07:44, 27 August 2016 (UTC)


 * Keep – That's a short enough and well-sourced list, although it does smell of recentism. But I'm afraid deleting it would only prompt other editors to add it again. Conversely the section titled "Responses to antisemitism and racism" looks like a senseless compilation of minor news from the last 15 years; this should be totally replaced by a couple paragraphs of prose at most. — JFG talk 01:14, 29 August 2016 (UTC)


 * Keep or move to a list of anti-Semitic incidents in 21st century France created for the purpose. All the material is very well supported by WP:RS. XavierItzm (talk) 22:52, 29 August 2016 (UTC)


 * Keep – as long as items are supported by primary sources Drsmoo (talk) 22:53, 30 August 2016 (UTC)


 * I do NOT KNOW if I can vote since I am anonymous but my opinion is expressed here: COI thread against Dan Eisenberg I started - the removal of antisemitic incidents list from the Russian article left it unbalanced and somewhat overly optimistic. You may have also wanted to have your word in that thread, I'd appreciate. But for these reasons my vote is Strong Keep and therefore revert all deletions of lists from all articles about antisemitism but the American one, which has its own RfC. Note, good sourced overview should be preferred to an unorganized list of incidents if such overview is available, otherwise, a well-edited balanced list of incidents should remain in the article. -- 37.44.65.39 (talk) 23:12, 4 September 2016 (UTC)
 * I just learned that this User:37.44.65.39, has been blocked as an "obvious sock-puppet". -Dan Eisenberg (talk) 19:23, 5 September 2016 (UTC)


 * Comment - Can someone explain to me why WP:NOTNP and WP:RECENT do not apply here? I am not disputing whether these incidents are backed up by reliable sources. If we are using these sources to convey a general picture that starts to raise issues of wp:synth. I realize that my deleting of the material that others have worked hard to assemble is unpleasant to those who have done that hard work. However, just because someone has worked hard on something does not mean it should be included on wikipedia. JFG seems to agree that recentism might be a problem but then is afraid that deleting "it would only prompt other editors to add it again." Just because a lot of editors want something does not mean it fits with wikipedia standards and using this as a justification is of concern. -Dan Eisenberg (talk) 18:34, 5 September 2016 (UTC)
 * This is explained clearly at this link to a discussion of your editing at the Conflict of interest/Noticeboard.E.M.Gregory (talk) 15:09, 6 September 2016 (UTC)

Suggestion 2: put the timeline lists into a collapsible box, which can be expanded if clicked, to reduce the space taken and make reading easier.CuriousMind01 (talk) 14:18, 17 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Delete we risk this becoming a parade of horribles BlueSalix (talk) 00:02, 8 September 2016 (UTC)
 * There is a third alternative: Compress. This information could be compressed into a single sentence or two: In 2015 and 2016, there were a series of anti-Semitic attacks outside of synagogues and Jewish schools as well as on city streets. In the aftermath of the attacks, the French government increased the presence of soldiers outside prominent Jewish buildings.  (all appropriate citations should be added to the first sentence).
 * Incidentally, I am rather disappointed in Dan Eisenberg, as I suggested on his talk page and in the COI regarding him that he carefully avoid all future wholesale removals of information on this topic, but rather use such summaries. Cl ea n Co py talk 11:58, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Delete or Compress - Upon further thought and reflection and having a little time away, I agree with Clean Copy's suggestion for this page. I do think we should be careful about making this more of a precedent though as this still gets very close to including recent news which may not be considered noteworthy ten years from now and also needs to be carefully worded and thought out to avoid SYNTH. This page also is different from some of the other pages I have edited since it is specifically about the 21st century. I forget my reasoning for not fully engaging with this suggestion earlier, but suspect it was related to my focusing too much on the COI calling me an anti-semite and little engagement by others with the meat of the concern of NOTNEWS. -Dan Eisenberg (talk) 18:28, 12 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Keep - it isn't a very good article but without these occurrences being referred to in it it would have no value at all, it seems to me. I think it is wrong that the article says "During the January 2015 Île-de-France attacks, the Porte de Vincennes siege involved gunman taking hostages at a Kosher supermarket" without saying that four Jewish people were murdered. And why is the 2012 murder of a rabbi and three Jewish schoolchildren in Toulouse not in that list?Smeat75 (talk) 21:33, 13 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Move - Move to a separate list of 21st century incidents. Mostly I believe it is too much WP:NOTNP and WP:RECENT. The reader doesn't know if these are every event recorded, the worst events, or what, nor how to compare them to the previous 20 years.Parkwells (talk) 01:50, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Keep. Suggestion, summarize the incidents and move the incidents into a list, which is then referenced in this article. I think the incidents are valid historical information, I don't think WP:NOTNP and WP:RECENT apply.
 * Keep but compress a little, and work toward avoiding recentism. Yes, Wikipedia is "not a newspaper" but it can include recent events of note with the caveat to avoid recentism bias. I like listing of salient events in the text, but it should be more than a list by including analysis from the sources. An example would be from this source to include reference to according to a watchdog group, the Jewish Community Protection Service, or S.P.C.J., which reports statistics collected by the country’s Interior Ministry, there were 851 recorded anti-Semitic incidents in France in 2014, more than doubling the total from 2013. --- paraphrasing this would help to situate the "uptick" with source reporting facts. SageRad (talk) 13:28, 18 September 2016 (UTC)


 * The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Proposed revision
Is the following acceptable to all parties (replacing the two sections on 2015 and 2016 attacks)? Or is it too brief? Cl ea n Co py talk 00:27, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

2015-16 increase
In 2015 and 2016, there were a series of anti-Semitic attacks outside of synagogues and Jewish schools as well as on city streets. In the aftermath of the attacks, the French government increased the presence of soldiers outside prominent Jewish buildings. These increases in violent attacks on Jews in France are thought to put "the very existence of Jewish communities" in France in doubt.


 * This is far too brief. Some detail on individual incidents is necessary, perhaps not on stuff like painting anti-Jewish graffiti, but when it comes to knife attacks and other acts of violence, we should have some details on both the attack and the on the perpetrator.E.M.Gregory (talk) 01:03, 13 September 2016 (UTC)


 * I disagree that details of violence and perpetrator should be provided on each attack. The article consistently fails to provide context for these events and for the overall relations/demographics of Jews and Muslims in France, although many of the sources do so. For instance, from the Jan 2016 NY Times article I've learned that Marseilles, with 70,000 Jews, has the second-largest Jewish population in France after Paris, but editors have not provided that information here. In addition, the attack by the teenager in January 2016 was the third in Marseille against Jews since Oct. 2015. Now that provides some significant context, which I think is more important than the details of each attack. I think it would be better to provide general context; for instance, something like "in these three attacks, the perpetrator used the name of Allah (if so) and/or claimed to identify with ISIS." But not every detail of every attack.Parkwells (talk) 17:52, 19 September 2016 (UTC)


 * I came to this page because of the RfC, but I don't want to just vote yes or no. There should be a happy medium. May I suggest the following:
 * In 2015 and 2016, there were a series of anti-Semitic attacks outside of synagogues and Jewish schools as well as on city streets. Gunmen took hostages at a kosher supermarket during the January 2015 Île-de-France attacks. In the aftermath of the attacks, the French government increased the presence of soldiers outside prominent Jewish buildings. In February 2015 soldiers guarding a Jewish community center in Nice were attacked and wounded. In October in Marseilles, three Jewish men were stabbed outside a synagogue. In November, also in Marseilles, a Jewish teacher was stabbed by three men. In January 2016, again in Marseilles, a teacher was attacked outside a Jewish school by a teenage boy wielding a machete. In August, a Jew wearing was attacked [with a knife?] on Avenue des Vosges in Strasbourg. The attacker had previously knifed another Jew in 2010. These increases in violent attacks on Jews in France are thought to put "the very existence of Jewish communities" in France in doubt.
 * This gives the details, but without giving the journalistic embellishment that's there now. I realise I'm saying the opposite to the previous poster, but I offer it for what it's worth. Scolaire (talk) 18:28, 21 September 2016 (UTC)

Other editing
I have gone back to the sources and made other editing changes, to emphasize view of the sources. For instance, several sources specifically note the intifada and election of Ariel Sharon to power in Israel as influencing a rise of antisemitism in France among second-generation Arab immigrants. Will also try to provide fuller context - adding population of Jews in France. Also, some of the reports and surveys seem to refer to all incidents of racism, antisemitism and xenophobia, not simply antisemitism. This has to be made more clear. It would be useful if there were a breakout of numbers of antisemitic incidents, but perhaps they weren't recorded separately. There is little context for comparison to number of incidents from 1990-2000, say.Parkwells (talk) 21:23, 14 September 2016 (UTC)


 * More thoughts - I think the article needs much more context - for instance, the relation between the wars for independence for North African countries and Sephardic Jews leaving the area after victory. In addition, the relation among these groups as affected by decolonization, the Six-Day War, the intifada, and other events in Israel and the Palestine territories that raised animosity among Arabs against Jews in North Africa. I think it would be much more useful to address this in overall historic terms than listing a series of recent incidents. The article needs more depth.Parkwells (talk) 01:53, 15 September 2016 (UTC)


 * Based on my reading of cited sources such as the NY Times, BBC, and journals, I have begun to add more background to describe the changing nature of Jews in France, and the shared North African origins with many Arab immigrants. I will add the appropriate cites, too, from sources already cited in this article - just wanted to start mapping out more background, history and context for the discussion of early 21st century conditions. Parkwells (talk) 14:05, 15 September 2016 (UTC)

Problem with undifferentiated data
An editor included a table of "Offences related to racism" from the Criminal Affairs and Pardon Board at the Ministry of Justice, for the period from 2001-2010. I really don't see the point of including this data, as it includes all indictments for racist, antisemitic and discriminatory offences. Without any way to break out indictments for antisemitic offences alone, I don't think this group data is worth showing, particularly in detail on an annual basis on a table. I propose to delete it.Parkwells (talk) 03:26, 28 September 2016 (UTC)

Comments about 1990s historians
I moved a paragraph about 1990s historians contesting a work by an American historian about the role of the Vichy Regime to the body of the article, to go with other content about academic studies about French history and society. It seemed more appropriate for that area than to have it in the Lead. The paragraph is rather vague, not saying what the 1990s historians concluded. I will have to check the source to see if it has further information. This part seemed too "essay like" to include in the Lead, especially as it does not say much.Parkwells (talk) 03:35, 28 September 2016 (UTC)

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Merge proposal
I haven't read this article or Antisemitism in Europe in detail yet and don't have time now, but in the process of doing something else found these two overlapping topics in different places. This makes no sense - the information is different and either overlapping, conflicting or out of date in one source or the other, unless a lot of work is continuously done on both to keep them in sync. I propose that this become the main source of information and whatever is worth including from the section in the other one is copied over. The lead from this article can then be transcluded in the other section to keep both in sync at all times. Laterthanyouthink (talk) 06:42, 18 February 2019 (UTC)
 * This seems like a good idea, rather than having two articles that substantially overlap and duplicate each other. Robofish (talk) 13:10, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Terrible idea. Many countries in Europe have an antisemitism problem - not just France.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by NotButtigieg (talk • contribs) 05:47, 30 December 2019 (UTC)


 * , merging does not mean getting rid of any information. This is about moving most of the info in this article to the France article, reducing what is here to a few brief sentences with a link to the main article. That way, it is kept up to date in one place, provides maximum info for the reader, and maintains consistency. The rest of the Europe article stays as is, or possibly with separate articles created as per the France one. (Please remember to indent your comments using colons, and sign them using four tildes (~).) Laterthanyouthink (talk) 12:07, 30 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Given the shocking uptick in antisemitism across Europe in this century, which followed a period when antisemitism appeared to be a fading, antiquated phenomenon, I think that we would be better served by the creation of an article on Antisemitism in 21st-century Europe, to which the material now on this page regarding Germany and France can be redirected.NotButtigieg (talk) 13:43, 30 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Oppose merge, for the same reasons I've stated over at Talk:Antisemitism in 21st century Germany, where there is a parallel discussion. In essence, maintain WP:SUMMARY format. Klbrain (talk) 08:46, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

Disruption of Holocaust conference in Paris
I have reverted the removal of Disruption of Holocaust conference in Paris as the incidient has been described as antisemitic by the French government, and was widely covered in French national media as well as international media and an academic book chapter. The extensive coverage clearly males this WP:DUE.Icewhiz (talk) 04:27, 15 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Icewhiz, I realize that you're attempting to generate a faux impression of notability for an article on a non-notable WP:NEVENT you created, but this is disruptive, tendentious and appears to be an instance of WP:POINT. This material fails WP:NOTNEWS as has already been explained several times to you. Please try to move beyond an obdurate WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT and make an effort at working collaboratively with others and listening to their genuine concerns with your actions.Volunteer Marek (talk) 05:48, 15 August 2019 (UTC)

EHESS attack
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Antisemitism_in_21st-century_France&diff=922168146&oldid=921839889 removal with fake reasons. Major incident covered by world press and academia. Attacks by "tourists" are also in France. But here attackers were longtime French residents and citizens. Led by longtime Polish Catholic Mission in Paris priest. User: 2.53.141.62