Talk:Antonín Dvořák/Archive 1

Symphonies
I added a See Also heading linking to the pre-existing Dvorak compositions category. Thinking about it the symphonies section could probably be shortened which the full article on the symphonies put under the compositions category instead. Thoughts? --Sketchee 03:55, Dec 19, 2004 (UTC)
 * Symphony No 7 extracted into it's own article.--Sketchee 05:14, Jan 3, 2005 (UTC)

-- The article needs a bit more about the second symphony.

Influence of American music
I'm somewhat suspicious of this claim, recently added: :In this work [the 9th symphony] he used elements from american music like Spiritual and indian music (pentatonic) but also czech elements. I don't know a very great deal about Dvorak, but I do seem to remember that he denied using any American Indian or spiritual tunes in this work, and as far as I know there's no hard evidence that he did. Personally, I've never seen anything more "American" about this symphony than any of his others. Still, I'll leave this in for now, pending some sort of evidence, and/or a spot of further research on my part. --Camembert

You are right. It is a common legend, but it is wrong. Dvorak never stated, that he was inspired by Native Americans. If you hear the music, there is absolutely no evidence for such an assumption. -- Cordyph


 * In fact, Dvorak explicitly stated that the thematic material in his "American" compositions (such as the 9th) was Bohemian in origin. On the other hand, he also made known his admiration for Amerindian and African-American folk music --he thought it would make an excellent basis for someone else's compositions. --H.K. 06:20, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * Hmmmzzz .... Its a bit more complicated I guess. He was asked to write an opera on a real American theme. He thought Hiawatha was really American, and he liked the story. So he started sketching even before he had a libretto, which was also before he started the ninth symphony. Also Miss Thurber wanted him to do an opera on Hiawatha, but never gave him a libretto. The exact reason why he did stop sketching the opera I'm not sure about, probably because waiting for a suitable libretto took too long, so he used sketches from Minnehaha's funeral in the second movement, and the scherzo was based on sketches probably for the feast at which the indians dance. Basboy


 * I heard somewhere that Dvořák quoted in the development section of the first movement of Dvořák's ninth symphony from Stars and Stripes Forever by John Philip Sousa. I am still searching for this quote. TomyDuby 01:12, 13 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I read somewhere that when Dvorak heard that people claimed that he used real African American and Native American tunes to write his 9th Symphony ("From The New World"), he became angry and wrote:
 * Forget that nonsense, that I used Indian and Negro melodies, because it is a lie! I tried only to compose in the spirit of those melodies, that’s it!
 * If this is true, it goes to show at least some aknowledgement of African and Native American inspiration. Father Gandalf (talk) 16:05, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Scottish music and other folk styles
According to the BBC this afternoon, Dvorak thought a lot of American "native" music sounded like Scottish music! I'm only passing this on! -- David Martland 18:58 12 Jun 2003 (UTC)


 * Folk music from such diverse locations as Bohemia, America and China uses pentatonic scales, and I have heard Chinese compositions that sound a bit like Dvorak. --H.K. 06:20, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Landscapes in the USA

 * I've only just noticed that you replaced it with "In this work he described landscapes that he had seen while visiting the USA." Is that actually true? I wasn't aware he was trying to describe anything - I thought he just went to America, felt inspired for some reason, and so wrote a symphony (maybe he was inspired by the countryside, I don't know, but I don't think he was seeking to describe it). Still, I'll leave it be for the moment in case you know better (I'll have a poke through a couple of Dvorak biographies to see if I can come up with anything). --Camembert


 * OK, I had a poke around and found an interesting article by Dvorak published in the NY Herald 1893. I'll add a summary of what he says to this page, and some more detail at Symphony No. 9 (Dvorak). --Camembert

mgoetze: Keep in mind that Dvorak had just recently arrived in the USA when he started writing the piece and had had no opportunity whatsoever to explore the music of Native Americans; some Czech musicologist (forgot his name but I believe the initials were OS) has done a lot of research and pretty much proven that the themes of the New World symphony are very much original and in fact influenced by Czech folk music...

Symphonies section
A few questions about this new "symphonies" section:


 * Unlike many other composers who shied away from the symphony until their mature years (notably his mentor Johannes Brahms)...

Were there really "many" who left the symphony for a long time? I can only think of Brahms. Maybe I'm forgetting somebody obvious (I usually am...).


 * mg: Beethoven, Franck, Bruckner come to mind... Some 20th Century composers were so much in awe of the symphony that they didn't write one at all... ;)


 * Well, Beethoven first was premiered in 1800 when he was 29, so I don't think he counts. I'll let you have Franck and Brucker, though I don't think either of them wrote anything very much until their later years. Anyway, this isn't a very big deal. --Camembert


 * mg: Well, Beethoven had already had 20 works published at the time... Dvorak none... but as you say it's not a big deal. The main contrast here is to Brahms, who was for many years absolutely terrified of writing a symphony... :)


 * There could hardly be a starker contrast to Symphony No. 8 in G major (published as No. 4), a very modern work which could almost have been written by Gustav Mahler

This seems quite a bold claim to me - Dvorak 8 sounds nothing like Mahler to me. Can we attribute this opinion to some noted writer?


 * mg: Karl Schumann argues the case in his essay which comes with the Kubelik cycle. Particular mentions: "The linear instrumental writing, the many and sometimes bizarre solo passages, the technique of development and the songlike shape of the melodies all point forward to Mahler, who was to be a great admirer and interpreter of Dvorak" ... "It anticipates Mahler's practice of linking motifs" ... "A solo trumpet fanfare heeralds the finale, which combines the principles of variation and development in a manner anticipating that of Mahler".


 * Interesting. I must admit, I don't buy it myself, but we can stick Schumann's name next to it, and I'm happy :) --Camembert

There are quite a lot of other things similar to this which I sort of doubt we can express as fact. I'm OK with the "this shows the influence of Beethoven" stuff, but things like "Clearly the scherzo [of the first symphony] is the strongest movement, but the others are not uninteresting" bother me. If these views are widely held then it's better, I think, to say something like "the scherzo is considered to be the strongest movement". If, on the other hand, there is no general critical consensus on these things, I think we just have to pass over them in silence - we can't go expressing an opinion on something (as per the neutral point of view policy).


 * mg: It's quite clear in the case of Dvorak's first IMHO, unlike say Bruckner's 00th where Tintner considers the scherzo the selling point whereas I personally prefer the first movement... but I would be interested if you can come up with any opposed viewpoints here...


 * I definitely can't - truth is, I barely know the first symphony at all (I heard it once a few years ago when I "did" Dvorak, but never since, and I don't have a recording). My point, I suppose, is that if a view is widely held, it's better to make it clear that it is by saying "the scherzo is generally considered the strongest movement", rather than just say "the scherzo is the strongest movement", which sounds like an opinion. I'll fiddle with this now. --Camembert

I'm not going to edit any of this myself just now, because I don't know Dvorak as well as I might, but I do think we could be a bit more neutral here. --Camembert


 * mg: Sure, I'm a very opinionated kind of guy... but I felt the page was a bit lacking so I just went ahead and added some info, looking forward to the revision process. :)


 * Well, thanks for adding it - the page was indeed rather lacking, and as you say, it'll get revised into shape over time :) --Camembert

All's well that ends well, and the page is looking good, team. Nice work. BTW, I happend to see the 8th performed live last weekend (first time I've seen it live) and came away buzzing. Wonderful stuff! It's almost a cliche to say that much of the 19th century was essentially an extended period during which composers sat around asking themselves "what do we do after Beethoven?" - quite often not coming up with any answers. Not Dvorak. 4 hours driving to see the 8th, and worth every minute


 * While there are many 20th century composers (and many 19th, ...) who have not written works called symphonies, it's also been well-said (eg by Michael Kennedy in the Oxford Concise Dictionary of Music iirc) that (paraphrasing Mark Twain) (with many fine works in the genre and much that continues to reconsider what the "symphony" means as an outlet for a composer's expression) the reports of its demise are much exaggerated... (hrm, 9? by Henze, 13 by Holmboe, 11 by Simpson, 16 by Pettersson, 10-sort-of by Mahler, 9 by Vaughan Williams, 2 by Elgar, 4 by Roussel, 5 by Honegger, 9 by Atterberg, 4 by Rangstrom, 7 by Sibelius, 6 by Nielsen, 4 by Szymanowski, to name a few that came to mind and imply nothing about those I'm leaving out... and quite a few (some very good I think) moderns influenced by Dvorak rather more clearly than these... ) Schissel | Sound the Note! 18:22, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Pronunciation
I've removed: "(pronounced Vojak)". I admit, I don't know exactly how Dvorak himself pronounced his name, nor how modern Czechs would pronounce it, but I would pronounce "Vojak" to rhyme with "Kojak", and that's definitely wrong. --Camembert

It would be nice to have a pronunciation of his name. Does anyone know what it is? Rmhermen 20:55, Apr 12, 2004 (UTC)


 * I know how to pronounce it (as well as a non-native Czech speaker can be expected to), but what's the accepted way of representing pronunciations here? Do we use one of the IPA-in-ASCII schemes, or something else? Tim Bell


 * According to a CD I have of Dvorak the presented pronounciation is ("dah-VORE-zhahk"). I would think this is pretty accurate, it's better than refrencing another on-line website.  Reference: Dvorak: The Greatest Hits, Reference Gold.  I have changed the main page to reflect this but not the .ogg sound file (I don't know how to open such a file anyway) -MarlonG


 * That may be the most common English pronunciation, but the previous version (dvorzhak) was closer to the authentic Czech pronunciation. The word presents two problems to English speakers: the consonant cluster "dv" and the sound [r̝] (a trilled "r" and zh pronounced simultaneously). I believe the .ogg file was made by native Czech speakers. The most precise way of indicating the pronunciation is IPA; I will attempt a transcription. Lesgles ( talk ) 02:13, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

The IPA transilteration given (['dvor̝aːk]) indicates stress on the first syllable. This is also how I'm used to hearing the name borrowed into Hebrew (['dvoʒak]). But listening to the recording, I hear stress on the second syllable ([dvo'r̝aːk]) both times. Is there a mistake in the IPA transliteration? Is my concept of stress different than that of native Czech speakers? Or maybe stress is not phonemic in Czech at all? --uv 18:56, 14 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Supposedly, in standard Czech, the accent is ALWAYS on the first syllable unless displaced by a preceding preposition, which "steals" the accent. (In the dialect of Lašsko (the Czech portion of Silesia), from which the composer Janáček came, the accent is often on the penultimate syllable, as in Polish, to which the dialect is transitional.)Kostaki mou 03:47, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm a native Czech speaker and I'd like to summarize the pronunciation problems and make them clear.

1. In my opinion, the .oog sound file should be changed, because the first part of it (spoken by the woman) doesn't have good pronunciation of "ř". That woman isn't pronouncing ř in the correct way. In fact, her "ř" resembles "zh" which is not correct. She has a slight problem with the pronunciation or maybe she is not a native Czech speaker. The second part of the .ogg file is pronounced correctly (the male voice).

2. "ř" is quite a difficult sound for non-Czech speakers so I think that the acceptable pronunciation for non-Czech speakers can be "dvorzha:k" or "dvozha:k". However, "dvorzha:k" sounds a little odd for me and "dvozha:k" sound a little funny (it resembles a speech of a small child which learns speaking). However, the only correct is the pronunciation with "ř".

3. The stress is at the beginning - 'dvořa:k. User uv, there isn't the stress at the second syllable, maybe you think it because it is a long syllable.

4. Have a good time with the Czech language as it is almost the only (only - I don't know, there is so little information on the Internet) language with "ř" :-D

I am also a native Czech and I think that despite the description given by the predecessor the ogg file is quite good and it is not necessary to replace it. The lady's pronunciation of "ř" is not perfect, but I suppose it can be assumed as correct or standard (I have some proffessional competence for it). The stress are surely on first syllable and I "can hear" them there. Please do not mix stress and syllable length - the first syllable is stressed, the second one is long. As of the "ř" - I heard there is some "ř" in some African languages, but I don't know anything about that. The "rz" in Polish is something similar, the sound would be understood as "ř" in Czech, but as a more or less incorrect "ř". --Okino 23:54, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

#4 Best of the Early?

 * The influence of Wagner was not lasting, however; it can hardly be heard anymore in Symphony No. 4 in D minor. This last of Dvořák's early symphonies is also widely regarded as the best. Again the scherzo is the highlight, but already Dvořák shows his absolute mastery of all formal aspects.

That the Fourth is regarded as the best of the early Symphonies comes as a surprise to me. I love its excessively repetitive Finale, but the overall impression I get from the criticism of this work, (not that I have read much on this particular work) is that its troubled by pointless repetition and following textbook definitions too closely. Del arte 20:32, 14 Apr 2004 (UTC)


 * I have heard before that Dvořák's symphonies got progressively better with each one, so I would not be surprised if the statement was correct. Heavy Metal Cellist talkcontribs

Re Wagner influence almost lacking - Penguin Guide 1991 reviewer believed the scherzo trio theme a Wagner quote, if I remember. (The second theme of the main part of the scherzo- the march theme- reappears in- I believe - From the Bohemian Forest (4-hand piano work), in a completely unrelated tidbit.) Schissel 23:56, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)


 * Indeed it is a bit strange, especially concering the second movement, that's almost literally Tannhäuser, and Wagner's influence always stayed a part of his musical style, like in Othello, or the later symphonic poems. But of course his own voice grew stronger and stronger, though even in his third he is quite personal: cyclical form; three part symphony. It's quite an experiment of its own! (and succesfull at that imho) Basboy

Early and middle symphonies
"'' Not very remarkable, but not of low quality either, is Symphony No. 2 in B flat major, still looking up to Beethoven. But Symphony No. 3 in E flat major clearly shows the sudden and profound impact of Dvořák's recent acquaintance with the music of Richard Wagner and Franz Liszt.

''The influence of Wagner was not lasting, however; it can hardly be heard anymore in Symphony No. 4 in D minor. This last of Dvořák's early symphonies is also widely regarded as the best. Again the scherzo is the highlight, but already Dvořák shows his absolute mastery of all formal aspects.''


 * Alec Robertson regarded the scherzo as the least good movement. Kostaki mou 23:33, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Alec Robertson is wrong! The outer movements are the least good, being overextended developments of moderately interesting themes. The contrasting inner movements are the highlights, though strangely conductors tend to be good in one or the other, but not both. - Eyeresist 05:18, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

''Dvořák's middle symphonies, Symphony No. 5 in F major (published as No. 3) and Symphony No. 6 in D major (published as No. 1), are happy, pastoral works. They are not as famous as their later cousins, though many consider them just as good. The Fifth is the more pastoral work, although there is a dark slow movement which borrows (or, rather, steals) the first four notes of Tchaikovsky's Piano Concerto for the main theme. The Sixth shows a very strong resemblance to the Symphony No. 2 of Brahms, particularly the outer movements.''"

All of that seems very POV-ish to me-- anyone see it the same way I do? I added emphasis to the part I thought demonstrated the most point of view, but all of that seems to have tones of opinion in it. Also, that seems slightly below the writing quality of other articles, especially in the last paragraph. --Southwest 10/7/2005


 * It's the common view. Lots of people think that Dvořák's First isn't of the standard of Tsjaikovski's First, but the Second surpasses that, and it's true in the case that there is a better structure. On the other hand, the intro of Dvořák's first is very strong, as is the theme of the second movement, though he loses lots of votes on the fugue. The second symphony might be better structured, but I think the fourth part is the only interesting part. It's so self-identifying, that I even think you could almost see it as a symphonic poem. But .... who am I ... Basboy

Dvořák poor?????
I'm quite unhappy with the one but last sentence in the biography : "At the end of his life Dvořák was in serious financial straits, as he had sold his many compositions for so little he had hardly anything to live on"

In New York he ended his fight with Simrock, and sold quite some music. Indeed his prices weren't very high, and would have been lower if that had been up to him. Luckily his wife took care of most of this business. Still I wonder if that was a main income. Most income he would have had from all the concerts worldwide presenting his works ..... And he was also director of the Prague Conservatory. During these last years, he wrote the musical poems that were performed at lots of concerts. Even more important, he wrote his most famous operas which were hits in Tsjechia: Kate and the Devil and Rusalka, that even went abroad. So I have no idea where this line comes from ... Basboy

Libor Pesek's cycle?
"Three of the most highly regarded recordings of these symphonies are the cycles by Rafael Kubelik, Libor Pešek, and Istvan Kertész."

Now I'm not one to judge, but the penguin guide only gives Pesek's cycle a rating of **(*). However, Järvi's cycle is given a full ***. As somebody who owns Pesek's versions of Nos. 7 & 8, I'd also personally disagree with the idea that Pesek's cycle is especially good.

Smedley Hirkum 21:28, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Balance of the biography
It needs a lot more on his pre-U.S. period, especially references to the influence of Brahms. CalJW 08:53, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

The Great Four
I notice there's a box on the page listing Dvorak and three other composers under the title of "The Great Four". Should there be an explanation of this? Maybe it's own seperate article? (Seeing as it doesn't seem to have one.)

I'm mentioning this as I have no idea why they were called the great four, given that it's never mentioned on the page, and I'm sure some other people coming to this article have as little idea as I do. 156.34.221.174 02:19, 17 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I have found no source calling these three Bohemian and one Moravian composers 'The great Four'. moreover this is an article on Dvorak and not a picture gallery. I removed this box from the articles on Dvorak and the other three, and got this officious, rude, and unsourced response from an anonymous character:
 * 'Hello. Please refrain from removing information you have little knowledge about. The four composers listed in the gallery are successors to eachother and are named 'the great four' as a group. Look it up. Thanks. 65.9.112.175 19:08, 21 May 2006 (UTC)'


 * I encourage others to comment on this. If there is consensus,(or no complaint), I will remove the box once more in a few days. --Smerus 21:38, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I have enquired of the person who created the 'Great Four' box. He has given me only one citation of the use of this term. It is not in common usage or found in music dictionairies or histories. Furthermore the Dvořák article doesa not give any explanation of it or suggest any way in which Dvořák is linked with these other three names. I am therefore deleting the box.--Smerus 09:01, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Template now listed for deletion--Smerus 06:04, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Typos
It seems like someone added deliberate typos on the page. I fixed the few that I saw, but I honestly can't trust the dates now because of it.

Someone more enterprising than I should check the information out or reference an old copy of the document.

trivia??
I personally think that there should not be a separate "trivia" section; the content either needs to be incorporated into the article or removed. Heavy Metal Cellist talkcontribs


 * Agree - it's unsourced anyway, so I'll take it away. It can come back if someone can provide a source. 86.136.24.189 13:26, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Comment
needs inline citations plange 23:28, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

tweak of summary bit
Hello, I've just tweaked the final sentence of the introductory paragraph, changing "combined folk melodies with symphonic and chamber music" to "combined melodies of a folk idiom with...". The implication of "folk melodies" seemed to be that he borrowed existing folk melodies, as Bartok for example sometimes did, whereas in truth it was just the style and spirit of this folk music which he adopted in his writing. Genedecanter 07:21, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Opera
````This section needs a drastic rewrite - there is nothing wrong with 'Jacobin' or 'Vanda' and they don't need enormous casts contrary to what the article claims.

trivia
a little trivia i found out doing a research project on him was that the fourth movement in his ninth symphony (allegro con fuoco) means "fast with fire." i put that in the trivia section because wikipedia does not offer a translation of "Fuoco," and i thought if anybody wanted to know i should put it in. But after I put it there it was deleted. i dont know why, so could someone tell me please?? Conman090 19:10, 21 March 2007 (UTC)


 * There are probably dozens of movements in the symphonic repertoire with this direction. I don't see why this particular article should offer a translation, or why you have chosen to translate the tempo marking of this particular movement above all others; Dvorak did, after all, write at least nine symphonies. An autobiography of a Czech composer is not the place in which to give English translations of Italian musical directions. [This article], on the other hand, would be ideal, if it didn't already have it. --Stephen Burnett 23:32, 21 March 2007 (UTC)


 * It is not in Italian musical terms used in English, but it is already in List of musical terminology. Anyway the translation with fire seems too mechanical to me, I would prefer fierily. -- Okino 22:23, 22 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Must have imagined it, then; I had a delusion that it was about halfway down the page, in section 6: "Moods". --Stephen Burnett 23:31, 22 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Sorry, I missed it. So it is on both places. :-) Okino 23:49, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, that really clears it up! :) Conman090 18:50, 23 March 2007 (UTC)