Talk:Anton Bruckner/Archive 1

Bruckner rhythm

 * Symphony No. 6 in A major, written in 1879-1881, is an oft-neglected work. Whereas the Bruckner rhythm (3+2) is completely absent from the previous Symphony, in this one it permeates everything, appearing both horizontally and vertically.

I don't know Bruckner as well as I should - what is this "Bruckner rhythm"? The (3+2) makes it sound like it might be three triplet quavers (or crotchets, or whatever) followed by two straight quavers (crotchets, whatever) - is this right? Isn't two straight notes followed by a triplet actually more common Bruckner (ie, 2+3)? Also, how can a rhythm appear vertically? --Camembert

Yes, that's what the Bruckner rhythm is, and you're probably right that 2+3 is more common in Bruckner, or at least that's the form more common on prominent themes. As to how can a rhythm appear vertically? Perhaps there is a better way of expressing this. Sometimes, Bruckner might give the first violins to play 3+2 and in the same bar give the second violins 2+3. This isn't so bad for performers if it's all, say, in crotchets or in quavers, making a bar look more or less like this:

1--2--,1-2-3-

1-2-3-,1--2--

But when Bruckner uses the 2+3 or 3+2 in quavers in one part and in crotchets in another part in the same bar, such as is often the case in Sym. 6, performers start complaining. But then again, performers who don't like Bruckner's music will complain about anything ("He expects us to play tremolo pianissimo? He must be crazy!"). -- Del_arte

Camembert is quite right. Bruckner rhythm started long before the 6th symphony (which might well be regarded as a fantasia on Bruckner rhythm). In its original form it was 2+3 (not 3+2, which is a later variant). One only has to listen to the 4th symphony to capture the true essence of Bruckner rhythm. -- Chuck 17:05, 27 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Whereas the Bruckner rhythm (3+2) is completely absent from the previous [i.e. the 5th] Symphony, in this one it permeates everything, appearing both horizontally and vertically

Isn't the Bruckner rhythm present "vertically" in the slow movement of the 5th symphony? The main theme has duplets in the oboe against triplets in the pizzicato string accompaniment. Grover cleveland 17:37, 19 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Sure, but I don't think that Bruckner's (biographical) article is the place to discuss specific instances of it. I think we should work on the Bruckner rhythm article and list notable instances there, of which this would be one.  Also, we could probably make mention of the Bruckner rhythm in each of the symphonies' movements' notes.  Andrewski 21:25, 20 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Thank you for posting this. I find it very interesting.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Karljoos (talk • contribs) 01:10, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

Delinking Vienna institutions
I delinked Vienna Conservatory, Vienna University and Wiener Hofbibliothek because there appears to no interest in writing articles on these institutions in the English Wikipedia or even the German Wikipedia. -Del_arte

Nicknames
I inserted the nicknames for the symphonies from the book The Da Capo Catalog of Musical Compositions, by Chwiałkowski. Anyone have more info on these names? CoolGuy 21:46, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * Disregard below comment.. whoops.. I apparently cannot read. I have no info nor any other source but am glad that there is some source for them aside from the website I mentioned.  (Well, aside from 4 which is Romantic always and 3 which because of the Wagner-quotations in the first version- many of them excised in the 2nd vers.- and the dedication, is likewise, etc.) 9 I have heard referred to as Laus Deo - this may be an inscription? Yes, I have seen 8 referred to as Apocalyptic before; the other nickname may refer to the main theme of the scherzo.  The nicknames of 6 and 7 I have not seen though they make some sense ;) ... Schissel : bowl listen 04:53, Feb 28, 2005 (UTC)

Bruckner 1 nickname
Is Bruckner 1 indeed nicknamed "The Saucy Maid" (das kecke Beserl) in any of its versions? I know the Web is not the be-all and end-all of references, still less a search engine and still less google, but google turns up only various varieties of Amazon sites as sources for this... Schissel : bowl listen 04:49, Feb 28, 2005 (UTC)

I too have not heard much about this, and when I asked on a discussion board that included many people who know a lot about bruckner, they all had no idea what I was talking about. Unless there are objections, I am going to remove it. Squeemu

Indeed, I have heard of and read references to "das kecke Beserl" since the mid-1950s. Chuck 15:35, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Bruckner conductors
I'm greatly surprised to see that Herbert von Karajan is listed as a famous interpreter of Bruckner while Bruno Walter is not. I suspect that von Karajan was really riding the CD wave, while Bruno Walter has been largely ignored for his taut, dramatic interpretations of Bruckner because his recordings were largely made at or before the dawn of the Hi-Fi era. Additionally, Walter (having had to relocate to the States) never had the opportunity to enjoy a long tenure with a top-flight orchestra - in contrast to von Karajan's affiliation with the Berlin Philharmonic. The Walter recording of the Bruckner 9th is still a gold standard for interpretation. Simply compare the Herbert von Karajan page (which makes no mention of his Bruckner conducting at all) with the Bruno Walter page. While I admire much in von Karajan's Bruckner discography, I absolutely treasure my Bruno Walter recordings of Bruckner, even though most are on well-worn LP's. -- Chuck 17:05, 27 December 2005 (UTC)


 * I meant to reply to this. I agree; having started to amass my collection of recordings, my favorite of the 9th is still Walter's with Columbia (available on Sony), even though it's not the "tightest" performance ever. Do you know of any other CD reissues? Andrewski 22:17, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedian Brucknerites
I created a user category for Wikipedian Brucknerites. I hope you all will join! :) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Wikipedian_Brucknerites Andrewski 17:26, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Bounty notice
(new sections go at the bottom)


 * Awesome! Anyone have any specific ideas on what would need to happen before we could nominate it?  Off the top of my head, I've been meaning to add relevant quotations and ideas from Robert Simpson's The Essence of Bruckner.  This is a good impetus to get on that.  Andrewski 22:39, 25 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Hm, we might want to start with a Peer review. This isn't precisely my area but I'll see if I can come up with some suggestions. Oh, crumbs. To start with, there are no inline citations. I'll see if I can't fix that in the next day or two from Grove. Mak (talk)  22:42, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Deference v. reference
The article states:
 * In deference to their scale, massive sonorities and imposing structure, the symphonies have often been referred to as cathedrals of sound.

Wiktionary's definition for deference is: How does that fit here? I'm not going to start an edit war over this, but I definitely think the word that fits here rhymes with deference and starts with an R. Andrewski 23:36, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
 * 1) Great respect.
 * 2) The willingness to carry out the wishes of others.


 * How about "due to"? Antandrus (talk) 23:38, 25 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I like that even better than using 'reference'. Andrewski 23:48, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Introduction Summary
I'm thinking that the second paragraph of the introduction (i.e. before the TOC) should be moved further down in the article; the issue of revisions isn't exactly central to Anton Bruckner himself. What do you think? And if we move it, what should we say in its place? The intro seems rather short in general. Andrewski 20:50, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree the intro seems kinda short with only one paragraph. I added some "overview"-type stuff about Bruckner's historical reputation as a second paragraph. This, hopefully, will give a reader some feel for all the connotations and associations that Bruckner's name calls up. --Jamiemeyer 01:35, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Crossed edits
Sorry about the crossed edits, Makemi. I left my browser open for too long and wasn't paying attention to the history. You can revert my edits if need be, but fortunately they were some of the more nuts and bolts stuff than content. Sorry again! Andrewski 23:52, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Ah, no problem. I didn't end up making any changes because I feel like I need to do a bit of background work first. Mak (talk)  00:28, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Weasel words
There are some weasel words I'm trying to get rid of, but I could use some help. The following need citation:
 * His [organ] improvisation sessions sometimes yielded ideas for the Symphonies.
 * There's also a legend that Bruckner wrote the climactic cymbal clash in this movement at the precise moment that Wagner died; research has since revealed that Bruckner eventually decided against the cymbal clash, though the piece is often performed with it.
 * Biographer Derek Watson characterizes the pieces for men's choir as being "of little concern to the non-German listener".

I took the following sentences out as they have no citation and seem more like opinion. I would agree with most :), but I think we'd need something factual and cited to reinclude them: —Andrewski 00:34, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
 * The scherzo especially seems to have a raw power which sometimes seems missing in later works which underwent more revisions.
 * The Symphony No. 2 in C minor (apparently one of Bruckner's favourite keys)...
 * Perhaps the rhythmic difficulties of [Symphony No. 6], especially in the first movement, are part of the reason why this work is so seldom played.
 * [His early] Masses seem to be of interest only to music historians and ethnomusicologists.
 * It has been referred to "as the most monumental finale in symphonic literature".
 * It has been referred to "as the most monumental finale in symphonic literature".
 * —Andrewski 17:55, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Summary style
I'm thinking that the section on symphonies is a bit long-winded according to the Wikipedia guideline on summary style. Since separate articles exist for each symphony and this article is about Bruckner himself, could we shorten that section?

Barring any objections in the short-term, I'll take the initiative on my last few thoughts; we can always revert if they're really terrible. ;) I won't proceed until I've finished some other work I'd like to do. --Andrewski 03:47, 30 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Good ideas!


 * Maybe a summary section giving an overview of his style, then drilling down into detail on some individual works? Antandrus  (talk) 04:12, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Symphony No. 9 crowned by Te Deum
Bruckner suggested using his Te Deum as a Finale, which would complete the homage to Beethoven's Ninth symphony (also in D minor).

This is in the Symphonies section under Works. On the contrary, Derek Watson in his biography Bruckner (ISBN 0-19-81617-6) writes:

''Later on a more assertive chorale theme appears which becomes fused with a motif from the Te Deum. This appearance of the opening figuration of the Te Deum is entirely in keeping with Bruckner's habit of quotation from his sacred choral works (as seen in Symphonies 0, 2, 3, 7 and the Adagio of No.9). It has been quite erroneously assumed, however, that he was at: this point writing a transition to lead into the earlier work, thus providing the symphony with a choral finale. Such a view is untenable as the dying composer can only have suggested the substitution of the Te Deum as a finale as a very desperate solution. The unrelated keys of the two works, and the fact that the appearance of the Te Deum motif can be viewed as an entirely characteristic and symbolic programmatic quotation put the idea of appending the Te Deum to this symphony beyond the bounds of likelihood. This unjustifiable coupling of the two works was in fact perpetrated by Ferdinand Ldwe at the first performance on 11 February 1903, allegedly in accordance with the wishes of the late composer, and others followed his example. Indeed the very existence of an independent finale was tacitly ignored for about three decades until Alfred Orel's publication of Bruckner's incomplete `song of praise to our Lord'.''

I think this point in the Wikipedia biography should be clarified, which implies that it certainly was Bruckner's plan to finish the ninth off with the Te Deum, which seems to not be the case. Chris67.81.100.79 09:19, 13 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Go for it. I wouldn't mind making such an addition, but I couldn't cite it properly.  Andrewski 13:48, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Takashi Asahina
This Japanese Conductor (recently passed) devoted the majority of his life to conducting Bruckner (in Japan). He has established somewhat of a cult status in Japan from what I've heard.

He has a wikipedia article that states:

Inspired by a meeting with Wilhelm Furtwängler in the 1950s, he began a lifelong attachment to the music of Anton Bruckner, recording the complete Bruckner symphonies several times.

Surely he should be mentioned along with Jochum and Wand, if not at least added to the other list of composers of Bruckner.

Searching "Bruckner" should automatically bring up the composer's page
Most people think of the Bruckner, the composer, when the name is mentioned, not one of those other options. The same applies with Mahler, Bach, or Beethoven. Either change that setting so this can occur, or show me how to do it myself!


 * Agreed, so I just changed it. Simply go to the Bruckner article (which means you'll have to click on the "Redirected from Bruckner" link at the top, and edit the page to redirect to the correct page. —Andrewski 06:42, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

The association between Bruckner and the Nazis must't be overrated!
Is it really so important, that Hitler abused Bruckner's music? Is it neccessary to fill nearly the whole paragraph "Reception in the 20th Century" with Nazi-Stuff? I don't think so...

Karl Böhm, who conducted Bruckner's work, probably had closer ties to the Nazis than Bruckner himself. 65.175.205.243 (talk) 19:28, 26 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I agree, I think that the connection is clearly overrated in the article. Bruckner himself did not share Wagner's racial ideas and his devotion was purely musical. I think that the paragraph gives a false impression about Bruckner and his relevance in the 20th century. --jofframes (talk) 09:27, 21 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't like the fact that the Nazis used Bruckner's music, but it is a fact and it should at least be mentioned. To put that picture of Hitler by the Bruckner bust may be going a bit too far, though. Dmetric (talk) 18:16, 21 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Sentences like "Bruckner, like Hitler, idolized Wagner" connects both men in a way that, in my view, is not acceptable. The reference to having never been banned by Israel is the best proof that the whole paragraph is misplacing the focus. I agree that the Nazis may have misused Bruckner and it is worth mentioning it, but surely Bruckner's influence in the 20th century goes far beyond what the Nazis might have wanted to do with his memory. --jofframes (talk) 19:16, 23 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Whatever did happen to that picture? I'm not saying it should be put back in, I'm just wondering. Horn of Plenty (talk) 15:31, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Third Symphony

 * Though quotations from Wagner operas were deleted from later revisions, the first twelve-note phrase of the initial trumpet theme traces out a shape like a large capital "W." (with the period included). The second subject, introduced by massed strings, has a ten-note phrase in 3+2+2+3 Bruckner rhythm which traces a W in the pitch of the notes, while the 3+2+2+3 formation is itself suggestive of a W.

Seventh Symphony

 * The first twelve notes of the main theme of the Adagio shape a capital "W." with period.


 * Notes 3 through 6 echo the rising, questioning four-note motive heard at the beginning of the prelude to Tristan und Isolde. At the end of the movement this phrase will repeat its question before being gathered up into a consoling, major-key, "W"-shaped final statement of the main theme, played by the Wagner tubas.


 * (For those who have score in hand) -- at the bursting major-key climax of the movement, precisely where Bruckner mulled over including that famous cymbol clash, appears the rehearsal letter W. Suggesting this was intentional, rehearsal letter X then appears at the start of the following dirgelike minor-key epilogue (featuring the Wagner tubas) -- as if Bruckner had graciously contrived to override church law and give notorious pagan adulterer Wagner a Catholic funeral, or at least-- with that X-- place a cross atop the tombstone.

(I have read nothing about anyone but Bruckner being responsible for the placement of the rehearsal letters, and it doesn't seem likely anyone at the publishing house would have thought of the above idea.)

Epilogue: Brahms 3
Also in this work, written 1883, one should look for references to Wagner-- at least after getting past the Joachim motto of the first three notes and the Schumann Rhenish Symphony rhythm of the theme following.


 * The 4-note Tristan phrase, rhythmically accurate, dominates the 9/4 second theme, which however hardly resembles a pensive Isolde but rather possibly a dancing girl Johannes remembered seeing in a Hamburg bar where, age 11, he was the piano player.


 * Brahms used "Bruckner rhythm" in the important second subject of the andante, which recurs to help introduce the finale.  Then after a jagged-rhythm climax leading up to three intense W's, the heroic major-key theme, in which Joachim heard an intrepid swimmer contending against fate, meshes counterpoint to produce a unique "Bruckner rhythm" effect.  Perhaps Johannes intended this, and the entire symphony, as a peace offering to Bruckner now that the old arschloch was dead, dead, dead.Tokerdesigner (talk) 01:03, 11 June 2008 (UTC)


 * That's fine, Wagner was a superb composer and nobody denies that Bruckner sincerely admired him, but only as a great musician. --jofframes (talk) 22:26, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Personal opinion in article
"Next was the so-called Symphony No. 0 in D minor of 1869, a very charming work"

Whose opinion is it that the work is charming? Some authority should either be quoted having said this or the text should be changed. --Prokofiev 22:42, 30 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Even if an authority is quoted, it's still just a personal opinion (just of someone else). I suppose it might be fair to put something like "Some people find this a very charming work"? But that doesn't seem useful or appropriate to an encyclopedic article. Maybe nothing should be said at all along these lines, and keep to the straight facts. Smyslov 17:39, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Confusing wording
"Bruckner sent him a fair copy soon later". This in the paragraph about the Symphony #3. I would correct it, but I'm not totally positive exactly what it's saying. Smyslov 17:37, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Bruckner's signature
Check the bottom of this page:

http://www.dioezese-linz.at/pfarren/ansfelden/bruckner.asp

It's hard to read - but the filename is called Bruckner signature. Perhaps this could be incorporated into the box like in the Shakespeare article? It's a 2d scan of an out of copyright thing, so fair use. Lethesl 12:03, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Popularity has "decreased only slightly since his time"
Anyone have a reference for this? His symphonies are certainly performed far more often today than they were in his lifetime, and appreciation for his work is much more widespread in the non-German speaking world. I suggest this be removed. Grover cleveland 04:25, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Exactly, I agree. I don't think that is true. I am going to take it out now. If there is opposition, just revert me. — Andy W. (talk/contrb.) 19:22, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Bruckner hitler.jpg
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BetacommandBot (talk) 03:59, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Assessment comment
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