Talk:Antoniadis

merging Antoniades into Antoniadis
, I do not know etomology. However, I do understand WP:MOS. WP does not allow individuals to edit their own article even though they probably know themselves better than anyone else. Thus, you being Greek has no bearing on the content of this page. I do believe that Antoniadis and Antoniades are probably pronounced as similarly as Antonela and Antonella or as Anastassiya and Anastasiya, which are two sets of significantly different names. I have run across a source that says in Italy changing from an "i" to an "o" (i.e., Antonelli vs. Antonello) means the difference between northern and southern Italy. I feel it would be irresponsible of me to allow you to merge Antoniades into Antoniadis based solely on your WP:OR. Please provide a WP:IC from a WP:RS or relent to have separate pages. My guess is that different regions of Greece have more of a tendency to use an e or an i and can't just let you merge pages based on your opinion. Bottom line: Provide a source or I will keep reverting you.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 02:01, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
 * P.S. Tonia, Tonja and Tonya are derivatives of Antonius and Tania, Tanja and Tanya are not. You must source the changes that you wish to make.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 02:12, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
 * P.P.S. Greek_name suggests that -idis or -ides and -iadis or iades all mean 'son of' or 'descendant of', but it does not suggest they are all the same name.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 03:23, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
 * TonyTheTiger, although your intentions are good, and technically you are correct, I really really think you have the spirit and purpose of WP:OR wrong here. This is not my "opinion" or "original research" to claim that as a Greek, I know my native language. It is a matter of you favouring procedure over WP:AGF and common sense, in a topic you know nothing about; for better or worse, looking about in Wikipedia or the internet is no substitute for knowing a language. Put simply, you ignore the elephant in the room: unlike the Italian examples above, Greek is not written in the Latin alphabet, hence we are discussing an issue of transliteration.
 * The name, in Greek, is one, Αντωνιάδης. There is no other. That name is transliterated in English in two variants, "Antoniadis" or "Antoniades", depending on whether you transcribe the final eta phonetically (-i-) or according to the archaic way (-e-) (see Romanization of Greek). There is no difference between "different regions of Greece", as you guess (this actually is WP:OR). You mentioned some examples from other languages, this is exactly the same case as having the name Васильев in Russian, and then finding it as Vasiliev or Vasilyev or Vasil'ev or Vassilieff depending on the transliteration system used; you will often used different forms used for the same persons in different publications. It still remains the same surname in the original language, and should be treated thus. And FWIW, your example about Anastasiya an Anastassiya above is incorrect: it is the same name (Анастаси́я), differently transliterated.
 * Well my point is encyclopedically Anastasiya and Anastassiya seem to be different subject matter. One seems to be Kazakhstani and the other does not. Thus, I do not co-locate the content.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 19:13, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Yes, it may seem like this, to someone who does not know Russian. The names at Anastassiya are all Russian, not Kazakh (there are quite a few ethnic Russians in Kazakhstan). See for example how Anastassiya Batuyeva's article opens: Anastasiya Batuyeva (Russian: Анастасия Батуева; born 1987). The fact that an assumption is reasonable does not make it correct. Knowledge is always better than guesswork. Constantine  ✍  22:54, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Hey man, I am just trying to help out here to the best of my limited linguistic abilities. Right now, I am only co-locating names that differ only by diacratics because to English speakers diacratics look like our letters with squiggly stuff on top as opposed to different letters. I may be propagating my own ignorance, so somebody better stop me soon. I welcome outside opinions on the subject. Kazakhis versus Russians in Kazakhstan is splitting hairs to me. My point is Anastassiya's all have content that suggests they are from one region of the world and the 1s folks all come from elsewhere. Anyways, I am splitting different spellings until otherwise instructed. The rules of disambiguation would probably support this although name lists may not be true dab pages.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 23:20, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Sorry if I come off as too harsh. We all are volunteers and motivated by interest in knowledge, and in making it more widely available. I know and respect that, and don't doubt your good motives for a moment. But some degree of knowledge is required before editing specific areas, otherwise one should be aware of one's own ignorance, especially when one is told one is wrong by someone who knows better. So if I edit articles about names in Xhosa, no amount of good intentions will stop me from making some mistakes. When a Xhosa-speaker comes along and corrects me, and when his/her change makes some sense (i.e., is not obviously a vandalism), I accept this. Common sense and AGF-based judgment should take precedence over legalistic rule-following.
 * On "splitting different spellings", then you are imposing a Wikipedia-based distincion on the world, where there is no such difference in reality: a user writing an article with one particular transliteration (not spelling, the spelling in the native language is unambiguous) is not the same as that distinction having any value in the real world. For example, many sports organizations transliterate the Greek χ with -kh- whereas more commonly it is transliterated with -ch-. So you would have different pages for the names Khristos and Christos (both Χρήστος in Greek), merely because some organizations decided to transliterate differently? And what if another user were to move one Khristos article to Christos, because it is the more common/correct/whatever transliteration, should he then also move them from one dab page to another? This is ridiculous. Dab pages are for users who may be looking for "similar-looking" topics. I submit that users will be far more likely to look for the name Antoniadis/Anastasiya/Christos/etc, and not a specific transliteration of it. Constantine  ✍  07:44, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Now, as far as WP:RS are concerned to prove the self-evident, that these are two transliteration variants of the same Greek name, I will have a look, but I can't promise success, because this is a non-issue; anyone who actually knows anything about Greek would know what is going on, and I doubt that someone took the time to sit down and write it out in case some Wikipedia editor got confused and decided it was otherwise... I can however point you to the actual articles in the two lists: Olymbios Antoniades is spelled, in Greek, Ολύμπιος Αντωνιάδης; so is Marios Antoniades (Μάριος Αντωνιάδης); so is John Antoniadis (Ιωάννης Αντωνιάδης), etc. So unless there is a conspiracy here including articles I have never touched, it seems pretty conclusive that in Greek, there is only one name, as I have been arguing from the start. Constantine  ✍  07:22, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
 * In Greek and thus on Greek language they may be the same name. To me, an English speaker, -iades and -iadis are barely any more similar than -iades and -poulos, which both mean the same thing. Basically, on English language WP, things that should be co-located on Greek language WP may not necessarily deserve the same treatment. The question is whether they are the same name in English.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 19:13, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
 * I think you are slightly shifting the goalposts here, from the identity of the name (I hope at least that you no longer dispute that both Antoniades and Antoniadis are transliterations of the same thing, the name Αντωνιάδης) to your perception as an English-speaker (which is also WP:OR, I need to point out). Again, and I say this with every possible respect, your ignorance of a foreign language is not an excuse.
 * Ontologically, and therefore encyclopedically, as you put it, it is Αντωνιάδης that is the topic, especially since there simply is no standard, uniform way of transcribing the name (you could for example also see it as "Andoniadis"), and since the individuals in question are all ethnic Greeks (or near enough). English-speakers will simply have to learn/live with the fact that there are multiple ways to transliterate non-Latin alphabets. In Greek, we have a similar issue with the name "William": is it Γουΐλιαμ or Ουΐλιαμ? Or perhaps, to have a more accurate transcription, Ουΐλλιαμ. They all relfect the same name and can be used interchangeably. There is no right or wrong, and they are definitely not different subjects.
 * If, in a couple hundred years time, due to globalization and migration, the form "Antoniades" becomes closely associated with the US for example, and thus a separate topic/category which is no longer tied to the Greek name except through distant origin, we can discuss this again. As long as it remains merely an issue of variant transliteration, we are not, encyclopedically speaking, dealing with separate topics.
 * BTW, no, -iades and -poulos are not the same thing: they have different nuance and history, and are tied to specific areas. It is only through translation to "son of" that they loose this, which, again shows the perils of "assuming" things. Constantine  ✍  22:54, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
 * My goalpost is to separate pages that have different content. I continue to suspect that -iades and -iadis would come to have slightly different content if they were fleshed out to WP:GA level content.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 23:20, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
 * You might want to check de:Antoniadis ("auch in der Transkription Antoniades"), or el:Αντωνιάδης, where you will, among others, find el:Μάριος Αντωνιάδης listed... If you are interested in the issue, this makes the argument quite succinctly about needing to balance alphabetic transcription with phonetic rendering and common usage. Constantine  ✍  07:34, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
 * In the absence of a WP:RS, I don't think we are going to agree. I am going to post a link at WT:WPNAMES.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 19:13, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Go ahead. Constantine  ✍  22:54, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Done.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 23:20, 12 November 2019 (UTC)