Talk:Anupubbikathā

Expanding article (general)
User:Dhammapal and I have discussed briefly the desire to expand the article. While I will address one specific point under a separate header below, I'd like to here discuss different ways to expand this article's text regarding the overall concept of "gradual training."

For starters, I'd like to reference information provided by Bhikkhu Bodhi (In the Buddha's Words, 2005, Boston: Wisdom Publications, p. 226) that might provide an alternate secondary source as well as the basis for pursing multiple primary sources:
 * "The gradual training occurs in two versions: a longer version in the Digha Nikaya and a middle-length version in the Majjhima Nikaya. The principal differences are: (1) the longer version has a more detailed treatment of the observances that pertain to monastic etiquette and ascetic self-restraint; (2) the longer version includes eight types of higher knowledge while the middle-length version has thre types. However, as these three tpes are the ones mentioned in the Buddha's account of his own enlightenment [MN 36], they are by far the most important. The main paradigm for the longer version of the gradual training is found at DN 2; the middle-length version is at MN 27 and MN 51, with variants at MN 38, MN 39, MN 53, MN 107 and MN 125."

These discourse could likely be tracked down on Access to Insight (ATI) and information from them incorporated into this article accordingly. With metta, Larry Rosenfeld (talk) 05:08, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Hi Larry,


 * Thanks for creating the article as something to build on.


 * Here is a great source!
 * ānupubbī-kathā: 'gradual instruction', progressive sermon; given by the Buddha when it was necessary to prepare first the listener's mind before speaking to him on the advanced teaching of the Four Noble Truths. The stock passage (e.g. D. 3; D 14; M. 56) runs as follows:
 * "Then the Blessed One gave him a gradual instruction - that is to say, he spoke on liberality ('giving', dāna, q.v.), on moral conduct (sīla) and on the heaven (sagga); he explained the peril, the vanity and the depravity of sensual pleasures, and the advantage of renunciation. When the Blessed One perceived that the listener's mind was prepared, pliant, free from obstacles, elevated and lucid; then he explained to him that exalted teaching particular to the Buddhas (buddhāna? sāmukka?sikadesanā), that is: suffering, its cause, its ceasing, and the path."Source Nyanatiloka Buddhist Dictionary
 * I found this extract today about how the term dukkha can be misunderstood as having negative connotations. This could be a reason the Buddha didn’t teach it as his only teaching.
 * Another thing to make clear is that receiving the advanced teaching on the 4NT doesn’t mean to stop worrying about dana and sila.
 * I’m still corresponding with the Village Pump in order to figure out how to use such material as Nyanatiloka’s Dictionary. He died around 1957 so maybe the copyright has run out. (although finding our own words for pliant, lucid could be an insightful task.)
 * I’m happy for you to post basic skeletons of the other versions. Nyanaponika Thera gave a great version in “The Heart of Buddhist Meditation” with Satipatthana an advanced teaching. I’ll have my copy on hand sometime next week (we’ve been getting rooms painted and new carpet. I might be offline for a day or two).
 * I’ll close for now. With metta / Antony. Dhammapal 09:22, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Hi Dhammapal -

As you know, Sacca and I have talked about writing an article on this topic a while ago but neither of us has had the time and driving interest to fully pursue it. This is still true, but I support your doing so and am more than willing to help out with some references, etc.

I'd like to take a moment to discuss your interest in the above Nyanatiloka quote, especially in light of the skillful distinction you've made recently between facts and presentation. I'm wondering what are the facts in the Nyanaponika text that you wish to capture and can we separate them from his presentation. For instance, when I quickly review the material you cite, I see the following "facts":
 * ānupubbī-kathā can alternately be translated as "gradual instruction" or "progressive sermon"
 * the Buddha used this method to "prepare" the listener's mind for the Four Noble Truths
 * the gradual training is encapsulated in a stock formula that can be found in DN 3, DN 14 and MN 56.
 * Nyanatiloka then provides a translation of the referenced stock formula

Just stated as above, I think these "facts" (or, more specifically, published assertions) can now be inserted into or otherwise used in the article in various ways. For instance:
 * the first above-stated fact can be incorporated in the first sentence. For instance: "The gradual training or gradual instruction or progressive sermon (Pali: ānupubbī-kathā)[1] ..." where the end note references the Nyanaponika text as being the basis for the latter translations.
 * the second above-stated fact already seems to be referenced in this current article's opening sentence ("... the Four Noble Truths being the advanced teaching"). Thus, we can add a citation to this existing clause citing the Nyanaponika text and even (in the end note) quoting Nyanaponika more fully (e.g., we can add somthing like: According to Nyanaponika, the gradual training was "given by the Buddha when it was necessary to prepare first the listener's mind before speaking to him on the advanced teaching of the Four Noble Truths.").
 * the third fact can simply be taken as-is and stuck after the current list and then Nyanaponika's translation of DN 3 (et al) can be wholy inserted (offset by a ":" and, possibly, within quotemarks) with an end note identifying that the translation is from the Nyanatiloka text.

Does this make sense? Let me know if you'd like me to go ahead and implement this. More importantly, I hope this provides an example of how one can look at a useful source, extract from it pertinent facts and then use them in a WP article.

Best wishes, Larry Rosenfeld (talk) 00:11, 10 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Hi Dhammapal - simply to tie up this loose end before I move onto something else, I just incorporated many of the above additions we discussed (giving you well-deserved collaboration credit in the Edit Summary) into the article. Hope you approve. Best wishes, Larry Rosenfeld (talk) 19:47, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Hi Larry. Thanks again. Ideally, the Nyanatiloka definition could be cited as a source, whilst removing the quotation marks and re-writing the old fashioned English e.g. liberality
 * he explained the peril, the vanity and the depravity of sensual pleasures,
 * could become:
 * he explained the undesirable long-term consequences of indulging in sensual pleasures (See MN45, MN54)
 * This line could be made clearer:
 * listener's mind was prepared, pliant, free from obstacles, elevated and lucid;
 * If you are busy remember there is no hurry. With metta Dhammapal 21:42, 10 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Hi Dhammapal -
 * I applaud your desire to continue to turn block quotes into non-quoted summarized material. My hat is off to you.
 * In this particular instance though, if I may, this is one of those places were word-for-word quoting is a good thing! The blockquote is a Nyanatiloka translation of the Buddha's (or, actually, Ven. Ananda's) own reputed words in the Pali Canon.  Thus, it is as close as English-speakers can get to the Buddha's own supposed words or actions.  Using a word-for-word quote like this is meant to use the Buddha's voice and actions as the ultimate authority (at least in terms of Buddhism), to underscore the preceding summarized material.  In this particular instance, if we were to summarize and paraphrase the quoted material then we would be essentially just restating the preceding existing summary.
 * In terms of the choice of translation words, I can understand the desire for something that perhaps is easier to read or uses more contemporary language. Quite frankly, I first checked to see if I could find something on "Access to Insight" (e.g., a Thanissaro translation) but none is available for the identified discourses.  I could always go to one of my printed books (e.g., Walshe, Bodhi) but, at the moment I typed that in, I didn't have the time to do so.  Perhaps I'll do so shortly.
 * I hope this makes sense. If not, please let me know.  Best regards, Larry Rosenfeld (talk) 23:20, 10 November 2007 (UTC)


 * FWIW, I checked Nanamoli & Bodhi (2001) and Walshe (1995) and assessed that Nanamoli & Bodhi (2001) likely had the most contemporary translation; so, per your prompting, I substituted Nanamoli & Bodhi for the Nyanatiloka translation. Larry Rosenfeld (talk) 02:06, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

adinava
In our personal talk page discussions, User:Dhammapal noted the scarcity of information regarding the concept of adinava (drawbacks), while also noting its being mentioned in MN 54 (e.g., Thanissaro, 2003). I'd like to mention two additional sources for information on this word:

(1) the on-line PTS Pali-English Dictionary (PED) (http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/pali/index.html):
 * At http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/getobject.pl?c.0:1:2695.pali it provides the following information on "Ādīnava":
 * Ādīnava [ā + dīna + va (nt.), a substantivised adj., orig. meaning "full of wretchedness", cp. BSk. ādīnava M Vastu iii.297 (misery); Divy 329] disadvantage, danger (in or through = loc.) D i.38 (vedanānaŋ assādañ ca ādīnavañ ca etc.), 213 (iddhi -- pāṭihāriye M i.318; S i.9 (ettha bhīyo); ii.170 sq. (dhātūnaŋ); iii.27, 62, 102 (rūpassa etc.); iv.7, 168; A i.57 (akaraṇīye kayiramāne) 258 (ko loke assādo); iii.250 sq.; 267 sq. (duccarite), 270 (puggala -- ppasāde); iv.439 sq.; v.81; J i.146; iv.2; It 9 = A ii.10 = Nd2 172a; Sn 36, 50 (cp. Nd2 127), 69, 424, 732; Th 2, 17 (kāye ā. = dosa ThA 23), 485 (kāmesu ā. = dosa ThA 287); Pv iii.107 (= dosa PvA 214); iv.67 (= dosa PvA 263); Ps i.192 sq.; ii.9, 10; PvA 12, 208.
 * There are several sets of sources of evil or danger, viz. five dussīlassa sīla -- vipattiyā ā. at D ii.85 = iii.235 = A iii.252; five akkhantiyā ā. at Vbh 378; six of six each at D iii.182 sq.
 * In phrase kāmānaŋ ā. okāro sankileso D i.110, 148; M i.115; Nett 42; DhA 16.
 * [in compounds:]
 * -ânupassin realising the danger or evil of S ii.85 (upā dāniyesu dhammesu) abstr. ˚ânupassanā Vism 647 sq., 695.
 * -dassāvin same as ˚ânupassin D i.245 (an˚); A v.178 (id.); D iii.46; S ii.194, 269; A iii.146; v.181 sq.; Nd2 141.
 * -pariyesanā search for danger in ( -- ˚) S ii.171; iii.29; iv.8 sq.
 * -saññā consciousness of danger D i.7); iii.253, 283; A iii.79.

(2) the on-line La Trobe U. search engine for the Sinhala edition of Pali literature (http://www.chaf.lib.latrobe.edu.au/dcd/pali.htm):
 * If you do a search on "ādīnav" (leaving off the last letter as a sloppy way of searching for declinations), it finds 472 records (some with multiple hits) (see http://www.chaf.lib.latrobe.edu.au/dcd/pitikaresults.php?title=&start=0&to=10&searchstring=ādīnav). If you have the time, it might be going through the hits, identifying which you think might be most interesting (for instance, those in the first four nikayas) and then correlating them to English translations (e.g., by using the PTS volume and page number imbedded in virtually all Pali editions and English translations).  Let me know if you'd like me to elaborate further on this means of digging up more pertinent material for you to read and then possibly incorporate here.

I hope this makes sense and might be of use, both here and more generally. Best wishes, Larry Rosenfeld (talk) 05:27, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Hi Larry,


 * Without reading the web (slow down!), and only being half-serious, but how about “undesirable long-term side-effects”
 * A delightful thing about the Buddha, and Simple English version of Wikipedia, is that they use the vernacular.
 * With metta (see my other post in Expanding (General) above) Dhammapal 09:48, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Proposed section: The Discourse on the 'Tamed Stage'
MN 125: Dantabhumi Sutta at Access to Insight (Translated from the Pali by I.B. Horner) Then the three knowledges, te-vijja
 * 1) Morality
 * 2) Sense-Control
 * 3) Moderation in eating
 * 4) Vigilance
 * 5) Mindfulness and clear consciousness
 * 6) Overcoming of the five hindrances
 * 7) The four applications of mindfulness
 * 8) Jhana
 * 1) Recollection of former habitations
 * 2) The Divine Eye
 * 3) Destruction of Cankers: Sainthood

Dhammapal: Are Recollection of past lives and the Divine Eye a prerequisite for Enlightenment? Thanks Dhammapal 02:34, 14 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Hi Dhammapal -
 * Regarding recollection of past lives and divine eye (dibba-cakkhu), my recollection is that these are the results of advanced jhana practice and, given that jhana attainment is not always required to achieve Enlightenment (at least according to one or two Anguttara Nikaya suttas and I believe Buddhaghosa vis-a-vis his mentioning of khanika-samadhi), it would follow that these are not prerequisites or corequisites of Enlightenment, at least according to my always questionable understanding. (Regrettably, I can't pinpoint a concrete reference regarding this at this time.)
 * Regarding MN 125, Bodhi (in a blockquote near the top of this page) identifies it as one of the "variants" of the "middle-length" versions of the gradual training so, if MN 125 speaks to you, feel free to add a section on it. From your brief outline here, MN 125 sounds like DN 2.  Perhaps sometime a section on the pertinent parts of DN 2 can be added as well.  (FWIW, in my mind, once DN 2 is appropriately analyzed here, the stub tag can be removed from this article.)
 * Be well, Larry Rosenfeld (talk) 03:42, 14 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Also, if I may suggest, summarizing MN 107 here might be of particular interest since, to the best of my recollections, that sutta's opening hinges on the question of different types of "gradual trainings" across different pursuits. Just FWIW.  Best, Larry Rosenfeld (talk) 18:21, 14 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Hi Dhammapal - just to follow-up further, I just came across SN 12.70 and see that, in Thanissaro's introduction to his translation of this discourse (Thanissaro, 1998), Thanissaro writes in part: "The new arahants mentioned here ... deny that they have acquired any psychic powers ...." This thus appears to address your question: psychic powers do not appear to be prerequisites or even necessary results of Enlightenment.  Best wishes, Larry Rosenfeld (talk) 03:24, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Hi Larry, Sorry I haven’t checked in for a few days (the carpet is laid but needs adjusting so I haven’t got my bookshelf back for my Majjhima). MN107 sounds great, although Horner’s translation on Access to Insight sounds dated. This project will help me with my own practice. With metta, Dhammapal (talk) 11:23, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Hi Larry. I have my Majjhima back. I am going to memorize some of MN107 for recitation.Dhammapal (talk) 11:10, 22 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Hi Dhammapal - I applaud your efforts! It reminds me of the Buddha's description of how to increase one's spiritual wisdom in the Pañña Sutta ("Wisdom" or "Discernment" Discourse, AN 8.2):
 * "He has heard much, has retained what he has heard, has stored what he has heard. Whatever teachings are admirable in the beginning, admirable in the middle, admirable in the end, that — in their meaning & expression — proclaim the holy life that is entirely complete & pure: those he has listened to often, retained, discussed, accumulated, examined with his mind, & well-penetrated in terms of his views. This is the fifth cause, the fifth requisite condition ... that leads to the acquiring of the as-yet-unacquired discernment that is basic to the holy life, and to the increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of that which has already been acquired." (Thanissaro, 1997).
 * Best wishes to you and yours, Larry Rosenfeld (talk) 18:08, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Why single out 1 sutta? There are numerous variations on the path: see Dialogues of the Buddha, volume I, intro to Samannaphala, for discussion of a number. Peter jackson 11:58, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

ānupubbī-kathā or anupubba-sikkhā ?
This article's original focus was on ānupubbī-kathā. The ever eloquent User:Langdell changed the intro (in addition to introducing interesting text from the Udana, etc.) so that the focus became anupubba-sikkhā, shifting ānupubbī-kathā to a specific way of teaching this sikkhā. So, I ask, which should be the lead for this article?

In the meantime, I've put the intro's focus back on ānupubbī-kathā for the following reasons:
 * to the best of my recollection, the content of ānupubbī-kathā was what the original author (User:Dhammapal) of this article initially wanted to describe
 * based on a La Trobe U. database search, ānupubbī-kathā is found more often in the Canon
 * in the Majjhima Nikaya and Udana discourses I glanced at, anupubba-sikkhā is always found with anupubbakiriyā anupubbapaipadā thus giving the phrase diminished salience to me

I'm way open to being persuaded that I'm wrong here but ask that we discuss it rationally and reach consensus before future reversions of the article's original intent.

With metta, Larry Rosenfeld (talk) 06:06, 14 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Dear friends. As far as I am aware the source of this confusion is John Bullitt's article http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/index.html. Generally speaking Access to Insight is reliable and indeed a marvellous resource. In this particular case, however, the above article is misleading in as far as it conflates two different concepts. This is not mere pedantry on my part. The word Kathā in Pali means 'talk' as in 'to give a talk' (ie. about something). The following passage from The Kuthi Sutta [Udana (5.3)] shows this clearly:


 * Suppabuddhaṃ kuṭṭhiṃ ārabbha ānupubbiṃ kathaṃ kathesi, seyyathidaṃ – dānakathaṃ [a talk on charity] sīlakathaṃ [a talk on morality]  saggakathaṃ [a talk on heaven] ; kāmānaṃ ādīnavaṃ okāraṃ saṅkilesaṃ; nekkhamme ānisaṃsaṃ pakāsesi. Yadā bhagavā aññāsi suppabuddhaṃ kuṭṭhiṃ kallacittaṃ muducittaṃ vinīvaraṇacittaṃ udaggacittaṃ pasannacittaṃ, atha yā buddhānaṃ sāmukkaṃsikā dhammadesanā taṃ pakāsesi – dukkhaṃ, samudayaṃ, nirodhaṃ, maggaṃ.


 * Here's Bhikkhu Thanissaro's translation of this extract:


 * 'So, aiming at Suppabuddha the leper, he gave a step-by-step talk, i.e., a talk on giving, a talk on virtue, a talk on heaven; he declared the drawbacks, degradation, & corruption of sensual passions, and the rewards of renunciation. Then when he saw that Suppabuddha the leper's mind was ready, malleable, free from hindrances, elated, & bright, he then gave the Dhamma-talk peculiar to Awakened Ones, i.e., stress, origination, cessation, & path.'


 * Anupubbi-katha therefore means (and indeed only ever means) 'step-by-step talk' or 'graduated talk' etc. It never means 'gradual training' which is a completely different concept. The 'gradual training' (anupubbasikkhā) is how the Buddha described Dhamma-vinaya or magga as a whole from beginning to end:


 * Seyyathāpi, bhikkhave, mahāsamuddo anupubbaninno anupubbapoṇo anupubbapabbhāro, na āyatakeneva papāto; evameva kho, bhikkhave, imasmiṃ dhammavinaye anupubbasikkhā anupubbakiriyā anupubbapaṭipadā, na āyatakeneva aññāpaṭivedho. Yampi, bhikkhave, imasmiṃ dhammavinaye anupubbasikkhā anupubbakiriyā anupubbapaṭipadā, na āyatakeneva aññāpaṭivedho; [Uposatha Sutta (Udana 5.5)]


 * Just as the ocean has a gradual shelf, a gradual slope, a gradual inclination, with a sudden drop-off only after a long stretch, in the same way the Dhamma discipline has a gradual training, a gradual performance, a gradual progression, with a penetration to gnosis only after a long stretch.


 * Anupubbasikkhā which means 'the gradual training' (sikkhā means 'training') refers to the path as a whole and has nothing to do with the formulaic talk which the Buddha gave to laypeople. It becomes clear therefore that either the article must change it's name to Graduated Discourse/Step-by-step talk etc. or must be rewritten as an article about 'the gradual training'. They are two different topics. John Bullitt in his otherwise clear article makes anupubbasikkhā synonymous with anupubbikathā and that is what I say is an innocent (yet mistaken) conflation of two different concepts. I hope that makes it clear! All the best.User:Langdell 23:10GMT January 14th 2008. —Preceding comment was added at 23:16, 14 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Hi Langdell -
 * Well, I think there's a lot of room for nuanced and sophisticated discussion here but, to get to the punch line, at this time I believe: You're right; I'm wrong.
 * As I've indicated in our friendly discussion on our talk pages, I don't have much time to research this due to real-life obligations, but I just opened up Bodhi's "In the Buddha's Words" (2005) and, in the index (p. 477), he parenthetically identifies "Gradual training" with anupubbasikkhā. That's enough for me.
 * Given that you and I are now in agreement (and no one else has barked), how'd you like to proceed. I'm reluctant to simply revert back to your last edit because I feel I've added some useful information (mostly or perhaps completely end notes) and I would like to keep in the (evidently misleading?) Bodhi/Bullitt translation of ānupubbī-kathā (is there really a macron on that first "a"? I'll try to double check sometime)-- perhaps with a palliative footnote.  Alternately, as we've discussed, we could move this current article (with appropriate corrections/truncation) to anupubbi-katha (as User:Dhammapal initially had it and from which I now very regrettably dissuaded him).  Do you have a preference?  If you're up for it, I trust you to make these changes/moves; or, since I made this mess, let me know and I'll be happy to try to follow through with whichever preference you articulate.
 * Sorry for my perpetuating my confusion. I appreciate your kind and thoughtful discussion and patience.
 * Best wishes, Larry Rosenfeld (talk) 22:07, 15 January 2008 (UTC)


 * On second thought, I think the right thing for me to do now is in fact to self-revert to Langdell's last edit and then to incorporate my few recent edits that are actually beneficial as time allows. So, I'll self-revert momentarily.  With metta, Larry Rosenfeld (talk) 22:22, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Hello Larry. In response to your question as to how to proceed, personally I feel that there should be two articles for the reasons i've already explained. We are dealing with two different concepts here. I did send an email to John Bullitt explaining that he has conflated two different ideas but i have not yet received a reply from him. Probably the best thing to do is as you suggested ie, have a page called anupubbikathā and retain the current page for a discussion of anupubbasikkhā. Peace be with you Langdell (talk) 12:38, 16 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Hi Langdell -
 * I'll be happy to pursue your preference at this point. Would you mind if I do a move to preserve the article's history and User:Dhammapal's contributions to this talk page, and then you could start Gradual training de novo (e.g., copying over the text you value from your recent edit of this article)? Otherwise, I can just do some cut and pasting and we could then decide what needs to go where in terms of the talk pages and perhaps direct user's to this article's history page for such info, etc.?  To preserve Dhammapal's contributions, I have a preference for the former, but let me know your preference as I feel I've already burdened you with my own confusion on this topic; so: move or selective copy? Thanks,
 * Larry Rosenfeld (talk) 19:40, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Hi Larry, Langdell,
 * Yes, since we started the Gradual Training article, I found Majjhima 107 (which I am currently memorizing) which I think is the preferable focus of the article. Dhammapal (talk) 09:33, 19 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Hi Dhammapal -- kudos to you for your continued efforts at memorization. I think that's great.
 * Regarding Langdell's recent proposal, is it okay with you if I created (actually, I guess, recreate :-) ) an anupubba-katha article (with the correct diacriticals, I guess) and copy over a previous version of this article that you and I developed? I'll also copy over the entries from this talk page onto the new article's talk page. The problem with such a copy is that the associated history information (about who wrote what when) will be lost; but, I think such would be less disruptive than doing a WP "move" of this article and forcing this article here to start from scratch.  What do you think?
 * Thanks for all you do! Hope you are well!
 * Larry Rosenfeld (talk) 01:47, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Hi Larry,

Thanks for all your efforts. Sounds OK to me. A lot of work went into the Notes section. Interesting topic. Metta / Dhammapal (talk) 09:01, 21 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Excellent! Thanks Dhammapal (and Langdell)!  I'll try to do these changes momentarily (assuming I don't get interrupted -- though, if I do, I'll finish up later tonight).  Given that -- to the best of my current understanding -- WP frowns on using diacrticals in an article's title (e.g., because it's hard for people to search for such), I'll entitle the new article Anupubbikatha. With metta, Larry Rosenfeld (talk) 20:35, 21 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Copy completed Larry Rosenfeld (talk) 21:22, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Langdell is of course perfectly correct, as you seem to have agreed. May I add a couple of things that may be relevant?

If you look at the contexts in which anupubbikatha occurs, you'll find that the hearer of the discourse always attains some sort of enlightenment at the end of it, without actually practising any of it. I don't know whether any reliable source has anything to say on this point.

It's not clear from the wording how far the anupubbikatha goes. It obviously includes dana, sila & sagga, but does it also cover some or all of the later stages mentioned? According to the Netti, & I think the Petaka, it covers everything before the 4 NTs, but not those. This is the interpretation followed in the (New) Penguin Handbook of Living Religions. Peter jackson (talk) 18:23, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

When I said above that I didn't know whether any reliable source had anything to say on that point, I'd forgotten Masefield, Divine Revelation in Pali Buddhism, which has a lot; far too much, in fact. Peter jackson (talk) 16:15, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

gradual training confusion
Just to let you know: the word katha means 'talk' in Pali. The word sikha means training. The confusion about gradual training seems to have arisen because of the phrase 'gradual instruction' which is a legitimate translation of annupubbikatha. The 'gradual training' (annupubisikha) is a euphemism for dhammavinaya or buddhadharma in totum wheras annupubikatha means step-by-step talk. 81.107.150.246 (talk) 21:07, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

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