Talk:Apalachin meeting

Mobbed up?
Genovese called the meet, maybe, but the way I heard it, it was arranged by Russell Bufalino (a subtle distinction, to be sure...). Trekphiler 06:19, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

Film portrayal?
Wasn't this portrayed in Casino, Goodfellas, or something like that? Kent Wang 06:09, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

It was not shown in either movie, although Apalachin was referred to briefly in Goodfellas, where Henry Hill (Ray Liotta) mentions in a narration that life in the Mob was okay and largely worry-free "before Joey Gallo and Apalachin." Robert Mercer 19:13, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

There's also a mafia movie that starts with a bunch of people running away from a big meeting in the country, almost certainly the Apalachin. I've seen so many mafia films I sometimes get them mixed up. Maybe it's The Last Don? Kent Wang 18:02, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

The Film the scene was portrayed in was the comedy "Analyze This" with Robert Deniro and Billy Crystal. The scene was referenced as the Apalachin Meeting. edip1976

List of Appalachian detainees
1957 Apalachin Meeting Detainees:


 * Dominick Alaimo (Pittston, Pennsylvania)
 * Joseph Barbara Jr. (Apalachin, New York)
 * Joseph Barbara Sr. (Apalachin, New York)
 * Joseph Bonanno (Brooklyn, New York) (...see; Bonanno crime family)
 * John Bonventre (Brooklyn, New York)
 * Russell Bufalino (Kingston, Pennsylvania) (...see; Bufalino crime family)
 * Ignatious Cannone (Endwell, New York)
 * Roy Carlisi (Buffalo, New York)
 * Paul Castellano (Brooklyn, New York) (...see; Gambino crime family)
 * Gerardo Catena (Orange, New Jersey)
 * Charles Chiri (Bergen, New Jersey)
 * Nicholas Civella (Kansas City, Missouri)
 * Joseph Civello (Dallas, Texas)
 * James Colletti (Pueblo, Colorado)
 * Frank Cucchiara (Boston, Massachusetts)
 * Dominick D’Agostino (Niagara Falls, New York)
 * John DeMarco (Shaker, Ohio)
 * Frank DeSimone (Los Angeles, California)
 * Natale Evola (Brooklyn, New York)
 * Joseph Falcone (Utica, New York)
 * Salvatore Falcone (Utica, New York)
 * Joseph Filardo (Kansas City, Missouri)
 * Carlo Gambino (Brooklyn, New York)
 * Michael Genovese (Gibsonia, Pennsylvania)
 * Vito Genovese (Atlantic Highlands, New Jersey)
 * Anthony Guarnieri (Johnson City, New York)
 * Bartolo Guccia (Endicott, New York)
 * Joseph Ida (Highland Park, New Jersey)
 * James LaDuca (Lewiston, New York)
 * Salvatore LaGatutta (Buffalo, New York)
 * Louis LaRasso (Linden, New Jersey)
 * Antonino Magaddino (Niagara Falls, New York)
 * Frank Majuri (Elizabeth, New Jersey)
 * Rosario Mancuso (Utica, New York)
 * Gabriel Mannarino (Kingston, Pennsylvania)
 * Aniello Migliore (Bayside, New York)
 * Mike Miranda (Forest Hills, New York)
 * Pasquale Monachino (Auburn, New York)
 * Sam Monachino (Auburn, New York)
 * John Montana (Buffalo, New York)
 * Dominick Oliveto (Camden, New Jersey)
 * Jonathon Ormento (Lido Beach, New York)
 * James Ostico (Pittston, Pennsylvania)
 * Anthony Riela (West Orange, New Jersey)
 * Vincent Roa (Yonkers, New York)
 * Armand Rava (Brooklyn, New York)
 * Joseph Riccobono (Staten Island, New York)
 * Joseph Rosato (Jackson Heights, New York)
 * John Scalish (Cleveland, Ohio)
 * Angelo Sciandra (Pittston, Pennsylvania)
 * Pasquale “Patsy” Sciortino (Auburn, New York)
 * Simone Scozzari (San Gabriel, California)
 * Salvatore Tornabe (New York, New York)
 * Santo Louis Trafficante, Sr. (Havana, Cuba)
 * Pasquale Turrigiano (Endicott, New York)
 * Costenze Valenti (Rochester, New York)
 * Frank Valenti (Rochester, New York)
 * Emmanuel Zicari (Endicott, New York)
 * Frank Zito (Springfield, Illinois)

"(I don't think Civella was detained)"

Alexbonaro 03:09, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

NPOV
and ethnic prejudice cf. "italian descent"

I furthermore ask whether if is legitimate to call a person a "Mob figure" or like like, unless there is documentation available--and then the source canbe briefly quoted, ratherthzan the editor asserting it. There is no documentation here.DGG 04:03, 3 October 2006 (UTC)


 * a good change, but you've still got "italian descent" I think it's factually correct, however.DGG 03:21, 5 October 2006 (UTC).


 * DGG,
 * I've reformatted the article, in particular the references and external links sections, which should resolve the verification issue.
 * Regarding your opinion on the POV, the American-based Mafia (or "La Cosa Nostra" if you prefer) predominantly consists of Italian-Americans just as any other organized group (see Jewish, African-American, Greek and Irish Mobs). With exception to the Chicago Outfit among other crime syndicates, a key requirement for recruitment and membership has traditionally been for those of Italian ethnicity (although mobsters such as Frank Salemme and others of mixed ancestry appear to have high ranking positions). I don't seem to notice any statement in the article which negatively portrays Italian-Americans to the point of ethnic prejudice. If you have some spare time, could you possibly point out an example ? MadMax 00:54, 15 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree with MadMax. Unfortunately, most mafiosi are of Italian descent, or rather Sicilian descent. On the other hand, many of the most courageous Mafia adversaries where of Sicilian descent as well, and they lost their life doing so: to name a few Giovanni Falcone, Paolo Borsellino, Cesare Terranova. Mafia Expert 16:31, 18 October 2006 (UTC)


 * ...or Italian-American police officers such as Joseph Petrosino, Amedeo Polignani, Charles Cavolo or more recently Ralph Salerno. MadMax 19:33, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Participant Identification Problems
I'm doing achival research in New York State on this very subject (the collection I'm researching includes investigative records and criminal dossiers on dozens of the participants), and I can confirm that the bulk of the prinicipal 55-60 participants did in fact have criminal records; it is also accurate to call them "Italian-American" or to say that they were of "Italian descent," since many were actually born of Italian parents in the U.S., not Italy. However, there are relatively few published sources that document the criminal backgrounds of the "lesser" participants (I'm working on that), as most discussions of this event concentrate only on the very top 8-10 Apalachin attendees, principally the major figures from New York City.

In any case, I'd like to point out that there is no basis for a number of assertions regarding the affiliation of several of the lesser Apalachin participants. Specifically:


 * Rosario Mancuso was an underling of Joseph and Salvatore Falcone, not a member of the "Pittson/Scranton Barbera Family" (also, I'd note that the name is "Barbara," as presented in the body of the entry, not "Barbera," as it appears in the notations on several attendees).


 * There is absolutely no documentary evidence that the Falcone brothers were underlings of the Valente brothers of Rochester. They were at that time either independent operators or subordinate to, if to anyone, Steve Magaddino of Buffalo. The Falcones, the record shows, were actually more closely aligned to Barbara and participants from the southern tier of New York State than they were to Valentes in the 1950s.

Regarding the statement that "a passing state trooper became curious why there were so many luxury cars parked at Barbara's home," that is an old but not strictly true story. State Trooper Edgar Croswell had been keeping an eye on Barbara's activities throughout the preceding year. A smaller mob gathering had been held at Barbara's house in 1956, and Croswell had become aware that something suspicious had been going on there at that time because Carmine Galante, the later Bonanno Family boss, was caught speeding in the vicinity at the time of the 1956 meeting (among other things, Galante was driving without a license at the time, but more significant was the fact that Croswell discovered that Galante had a very extensive criminal record in New York City). Then, in 1957, Croswell had noticed Barbara's son making arrangements for hotel rooms in the area around Apalachin, which made him suspicious some days before he saw the luxury cars lined up around Barbara's house.

One last point is that, whoever called and arranged the meeting, Steve Magaddino gave clearance for it to happen specifically in Apalachin, as was proven in a wiretapped phone conversation between Magaddino and Chicago boss Sam Giancana, in which Magaddino expressed regret at letting a mob conference take place two years in a row at Apalachin, something he should have known was risky. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Prox82 (talk • contribs).

There has been and still is much confusion over affiliations between Pittston/Scranton and Buffalo family members, because of the overlap in territory and associations between groups and individuals

The fact is that the  Falcones and Mancuso were most defiantly underlings of Maggadino, and in fact, so was Velente.

The Falcones were the heads of what later became known as the “Falange crew”, the Utica NY based crew of the Buffalo family

The existence of a “Rochester family” under Velente was a media induced myth. There was an attempt made later by breakaway members, fed by the Pittston and Pittsburg families, resulting in the “Alphabet war” to break away from Buffalo, but in fact, there was never to this day, a separate Rochester “family —Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.160.5.25 (talk) 20:50, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Verify: Narcotics
The article says: "Boss Joseph Bonanno and other American Mob representatives had recently returned from an Oct.1957 U.S.-Sicilian Mafia Summit in Palermo, Sicily concerning whether or not to begin joint narcotics operations between the U.S. and Sicilian Mafias."

Narcotics, or to be more precise, heroin was smuggled to the US from Sicily (and Marseilles) before the talks of Bonanno and Sicilian mafiosi. It is incorrect to say "whether or not to begin joint narcotics operations" because there were already several joint heroin trafficking operations. Maybe some restructuring has been discussed - but we don't know. Moreover, heroin trafficking was not organised top down by any Mafia Commission, but rather bottom up by traffickers in Mafia families who relied on protection from the family. The article relies too much on the book by Claire Sterling, which is considered not very reliable by many historians. I quote:


 * (...) the works of the late Claire Sterling. She achieved a degree of fame by peddling nonsense about a global cartel of terrorist groups taking their marching orders from Moscow (1981), and as perestroika killed the market for anti-Communist hyperbole she deftly switched to portraying the Sicilian Mafia as the new alien threat to Judeo-Christian Civilization (1990). Then, with the fall of Communism and the disintegration of the Soviet Union, the new theme became the rise of a Russian Mafia made up of black-marketeers, ex-KGB agents and old apparachniks in league with Colombian "cartels" and Mafia families to carve up the whole world into criminal spheres of influence (1994). Mafia Expert 16:00, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Furthermore, the Sicilian "La Cosa Nostra" does not exist, see the relevant section in the Mafia article. The article also claims that "This was one of the most important topics to be discussed by the attendees, being that what was about to be discussed and proposed between the La Cosa Nostra Families of North America and Europe would build a global narcotics empire that would create staggering amounts of money and immense power to those who are in control of this colossus." There are no references and sources to back this up. Seems to me this is the personal opinion of one of the writers and does not fit the verifiability standards WP:VERIFY. Mafia Expert 12:55, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Huge clean-up needed
This article is hopelessly unreadable. One of the authors, Little Joe Shots, in fact tries to rewrite the history of the American Cosa Nostra (or rather his version of it) and does not limit himself to the actual, aborted, meeting in Apalachin. He also does not mention his sources, does not check his grammar and spelling, nor has the courtesy to properly wikify the links. I propose that the article to be reverted to the version before the article was trashed by this person. -- Mafia Expert 17:27, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Article Cleanup Co-Ordination Point
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Discussion

 * }

Well, the first two points are certainly true, but the article is not too short. On the contrary, it is much too long and contains information that belongs in articles about the people discussed in this article or other related issues. - Mafia Expert 21:36, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Let me point out some errors in this paragraph from alleged attendees --

''A Representative of the St. Louis Family - Anthony "Tony" Lopiparo, Ralph "Shorty" Caleca, Anthony "Tony G." Giordano and John "Johnny V." Vitale''

''Lopiparo was originally a member of the Kansas City Family and came to St. Louis with their backing in the 1940s and became Boss soon afterward, he reigned until he died in 1960 and was succeeded by Tony Giordano. Lopiparo, Caleca, Giordano and Vitale were all top members of the St. Louis Family in the 1950s, Lopiparo and Caleca were the older, senior Family members and would most likely have sent a substitute to represent St. Louis at Apalachin in 1957. Giordano was sent to prison for 4 years in 1956 and was not available in 1957, Vitale was most likely the representative sent to Apalachin if St. Louis was represented.''

Tony Lopiparo died in prison in 1961. Tony Giordano was in prison at that time so John Vitale briefly took command until Giordano's release from prison in 1962. Tony Lopiparo, Tony Giordano and Ralph Caleca were indicted for income-tax evasion in 1956, but were not convicted for it until 1958. The case lingered for two years and they were sent to prison for it after their conviction in 1958. Giordano served four years until 1962, as was already mentioned. So Tony Giordano could have actually been available to attend the meeting. However, there is no evidence that either he, Lopiparo, Vitale, or Caleca did actually attend it. More than likely, however, one of them did attend to respresent St. Louis, but again, there's no evidence to suggest that they did.


 * I've done some minor proofreading regarding spelling and grammar so at least that issue should be resolved, although there are numerous internal links and redundant statements throughout the article. MadMax 23:31, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Actually, the grammar and spelling (also, the spelling of "grammar" :) ) continue to be huge problems in this article.  Some sentences open with independent clauses and then simply stop.  Others inexplicably have commas mid-phrase. Does someone have the time to fix this?  Also, it's rife with conjecture right now.  The section dismissing the conspiracy theories behind why Costello, et al might not have tipped off the cops simply riffs along on conjectural theory; nary a shred of solid evidence is offered in this very long section.  Thoughts?    Patchyreynolds 14:42, 13 March 2007 (UTC)


 * In my defense, the article has been rewritten substantially during the last few months since my last edits. However, there are major problems regarding pov, tone, etc. The majority does seems to be more questionable given the lack of specific citations and references. MadMax 10:31, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Cleanup Progress

 * I had tried to clean up and source the conspiracy theory section a bit; my main source is The Mafia Encyclopedia, but unfortunately, that seems to take the conspiracy theory for granted as fact, and makes passing references to "revelations made by" Luciano and Stacher but I don't know where those came from. I tried to even out the tone and remove some of the speculation/original research. (Note that Siakis makes the claim that people like Lanksy and Stacher were invited, while I've seen other sources claim that none of the Jewish Mafia were invited, but I don't have any good references to cite there. Maybe I should go pick up Fox's book :) ) Kutulu (talk) 19:35, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Fixup
Did a bit of mucking around and rewrote some 'weasel words' sections. Hopefully a bit more readable now although the paragraphs are still extremely long-winded. -- Ghostreveries 11:16, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Non-weaselly
As far as I noted, this article does not use unwarranted weasel words. Many Mafia-related facts are genuinely unknown, and adding reasonable qualifying words to some of these statements does not rise (IMHO) to the level of weaseling. Thus, weasel-word tag removed. Jed 14:44, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Illiterate Spellings
This article needs to be cleaned up with correct spelling and grammar. I have tried to correct spellings. This meeting was held in the Applachian Mountains which is why this was called the Appalachian Meeting. However, I do not know who to correct the title spellings. While the knowledge of the subject matter seems ok ---the grammar and spellings are attrociouslvb
 * The name of the place it was held was Apalachin, New York. Alansohn (talk) 05:12, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Restore to previous version
This article is still a hopeless mess: unreferenced, unverifiable and full of original research. It does not meet WP:VERIFY and WP:NOR. I proprose to restore it to the version of 5 October 2006, before it was butchered by User:Little Joe Shots. From there it can be expanded and rewritten again. - Mafia Expert (talk) 16:15, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

National Crime Syndicate versus the mafia
There is a great deal of confusion in this article and other articles on this subject. They often make the assumption that the Italian-American mafia and the so-called "National Crime Syndicate" are the same thing. There is scant evidence to suggest a "national crime syndicate" ever existed and if one did exist, it had nothing to do with Apalachin which was an American mafia meeting. 70.234.209.126 (talk) 02:08, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

Removal of "suspected" attendees
I removed a long list of suspected attendees to the Apalachin meeting that had no sources cited. I'll post the section here if anyone can find some sources for inclusion. Shine runner  (talk)   22:39, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

Suspected Mafiosi attendees
Suspected Mafiosi at the Apalachin summit on November 14, 1957 included:

Other suspected attendants

 * Joseph Barbara, Jr. &mdash; Northeastern Barbara family Soldier. He was the son of Joseph Sr. who handled most of the guest's hotel registrations. He was on his way to his home and the meeting site, but noticed the road block. He was questioned soon after at his family's bottling plant.


 * Anthony "Tony" Lopiparo, Ralph "Shorty" Caleca, and John "Johnny V." Vitale &mdash; The St. Louis crime family leaders at the time of the meeting. Lopiparo and Caleca were the older, senior Family members and would most likely have sent a substitute to represent St. Louis at Apalachin in 1957. Giordano was sent to prison for four years in 1956 and was not available in 1957, Vitale was most likely the representative sent to Apalachin if St. Louis was represented.


 * Louis "Lew Farrell" Fratto &mdash; Des Moines, Iowa crime boss (Chicago Outfit member and possible caporegime.) A likely attendee due to his vast mid west interests.


 * Philip Buccola &mdash; Former New England crime family Boss based in Boston, MA. According to the Federal Bureau of Narcotics (FBN) Buccola was directly involved with American and Sicilian mafiosi regarding joint narcotics operations between Italy and North America and was observed arriving in Boston approximately two weeks prior to the Apalachin meeting. He was not one of the bosses detained in Apalachin, but the FBN speculate that Buccola's reason for traveling to the United States at this time was to confer with the various American mafia bosses attending the Apalachin meeting.

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