Talk:Applied behavior analysis/Archive 5

ABA is an evidence based practice and the research shows there is different learning styles
Also, ABA is not a therapy only used for autism (it's the application of the science of behavior analysis to change behavior and to understand its' function and causes), and the verbal and physical aversives are currently outdated as well. There is also a lot of misinformation about ABA in this article.

Please take a look at these sources:

Bringell, A., Chenausky, K. V., Song, H., Zhu, J., Suo, C., & Morgan, A. T. (2018). Communication interventions for autism spectrum disorder in minimally verbal children. Cochrane Database of Systematic Reviews, 11(11).

Dillenburger, K., & Keenan, M. (2009). None of the As in ABA stand for autism: Dispelling the myths. Journal of Intellectual & Developmental Disability, (1), 1-3.

Dimian, A. F., Symons, F. J., & Wolff, J. J. (2021). Delay to early intensive behavioral intervention and educational outcomes for a Medicaid-enrolled cohort of children with autism. Journal of Autism and Developmental Disorders, 51(4), 1054–1066.

Jobin, A. (2020). Varied treatment response in young children with autism: A relative comparison of structured and naturalistic behavioral interventions. Autism, 24(2), 338-351.

Kasari, C., Shire, S. Shih, W., Landa, R., Levato, L., & Smith, T. (2023). Spoken language outcomes in limited language preschoolers with autism and global developmental delay: RCT of early intervention approaches. Autism Research, 16(6), 1236-1246.

Keenan, M., & Dillenburger, K. (2011). When all you have is a hammer …: RCTs and hegemony in science. Research in Autism Spectrum Disorders, 5(1), 1–13.

Langh, U., Perry, A., Eikeseth, S., & Bolte, S. (2021). Quality of early intensive behavioral intervention as a predictor of children's outcome. Behavior Modification, 45(6), 911-928.

Myers, S. M., & Plauché Johnson, C. (2007). Management of children with autism spectrum disorders. Pediatrics, 120, 1162-1182.

Paul, R., Campbell, D., Gilbert, K., & Tsiouri, I. (2013). Comparing spoken language treatments for minimally verbal preschoolers with autism spectrum disorders. Journal of Autism and Developmental Disorders, 43(2), 418-431.

Roane, H., Ringdahl, J., & Falcomata, T. Clinical and organizational applications of applied behavior analysis (Practical resources for the mental health professional). Weltham, MA: Academic Press/Elsevier, 2015.

Smith, T., & Iadarola, S. (2015). Evidence base update for autism spectrum disorder. Journal of Clinical Child and Adolescent Psychology, 44(6), 897-922. ATC. Talk 22:39, 24 February 2024 (UTC)


 * If you are genuinely soliciting consensus on a proposed change, you should point out what specific information is in need of correction. Your mention of the presence of misinformation is too vague to act on.
 * Additionally, I have reverted your last two edits for the reasons stated in the edit summaries.
 * Please do not make edits that are identical or substantially similar to edits you or anyone else proposed in the dispute resolution closed on March 1, 2023 without first gaining consensus on the article talk page. DoItFastDoItUrgent (talk) 04:01, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Some of those sources you added back go against WP:POV and WP:SOURCES. Newsources, such as Fortune, are implying a point of view and, in general, Fortune isn't a valid resource for Wiki standards. ATC . Talk 22:08, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Please be more specific than "some." Regarding the Fortune article, the guidance on sources you cited states the following.
 * "Editors may also use material from reliable non-academic sources, particularly if it appears in respected mainstream publications. Other reliable sources include:
 * University-level textbooks
 * Books published by respected publishing houses
 * Mainstream (non-fringe) magazines, including specialty ones
 * Reputable newspapers"
 * Fortune has not been flagged by the Wikipedia community as a deprecated news source and can certainly be classified as a mainstream magazine. If you have a specific criticism of the news article, itself, which you feel justifies its removal, please bring up that specific criticism.
 * Also, citing a source that includes criticism of ABA does not, in and of itself, violate Wikipedia standards regarding injecting POV into an article. If it did, no Wikipedia article could include any mention of controversy or debate regarding any topic. DoItFastDoItUrgent (talk) 03:03, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
 * It appears you've once again deleted the Fortune citation without cause (merely stating a source is biased without documenting why is not cause) or talk-page consensus and you still don't appear to comprehend the definition of "controversial" (or are deliberately warping its meaning to question ABA critics' perceptions). If, rather than discuss why you believe these changes were justified, you'd prefer to take this to a formal dispute, that's fine with me. DoItFastDoItUrgent (talk) 06:21, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Please stop deleting the Fortune citation and rephrasing the sentence about ABA being controversial (to make it sound like its status as a controversial subject is a matter of opinion) without talk-page consensus. MidnightAlarm (talk) 21:13, 13 March 2024 (UTC)


 * Also Lovaas is not the founder of ABA, which this article keeps talking about. He developed discrete trial training and early intensive behavior intervention for autism. Skinner is its original founder, as are Baer, Wolf, and Risley. ATC . Talk 02:44, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
 * The claim that Ivar Lovaas was not the originator of ABA seems to be an increasingly common talking point within the industry, but it is no more than that - a talking point. While Lovaas' work was heavily based on Skinner's previous attempts to manipulate the behavior of rats, pigeons and other animals using the principles of radical behaviorism, Skinner did not invent ABA.  Trying to claim that other early ABA practitioners are more responsible for the creation of the industry than Lovaas was rings equally hollow.  While ABA practitioners may find it inconvenient to defend or wave away Lovaas' dehumanization and abuse of both the Autistic and LGBTQIA2S+ communities, that inconvenience does not change the fact that Lovaas was the father of ABA. DoItFastDoItUrgent (talk) 03:33, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Lovaas was one founding father of ABA when applied to autism (he really developed Discrete Trial Training and Early Intensive Behavioral Intervention). Skinner developed Behavior Analysis, and ABA is the application of this science outside the laboratory to a variety of situations (i.e., applied animal behavior, contingency management of substance abuse, organizational behavior management, acceptance and commitment therapy (which uses mindfulness in clinical counseling or to promote diet and exercise), habit reversal training for tics, schoolwide positive behavior support, classroom instruction for typically developing students, pediatric feeding therapy, contact desensitization for phobias, etc.). The main founders of ABA were Baer, Wolf, and Risley (Lovaas' college professors) who founded the Journal of Applied Behavior Analysis at the University of Kansas in 1968. Therefore, it is most accurate to say Baer, Wolf, and Risley developed ABA. To add, some of the verbal and physical aversives Lovaas used at UCLA in the 1960s are currently outdated and it's currently against the Behavior Analyst Certification Board's guidelines to use ABA in the form of gay conversion therapy. ABA is an evidence-based practice, there is different learning styles as to which form of ABA kids with autism acquire language from, and when it comes to DTT/EIBI and clinical interventions in general, RCTs are not the only valid form of research designs. You need to design the study differently to show different variables. Your view that ABA does not teach them useful skills is POV and a number of studies (based on valid data collection) for over 50 years suggest otherwise.
 * You're also using a news source to suggest a view point. This Conchrane review reflecting the 2014 study at the Yale Child Study Center on the different learning styles that kids with autism respond to here: Bringell, A., Chenausky, K. V., Song, H., Zhu, J., Suo, C., & Morgan, A. T. (2018). Communication interventions for autism spectrum disorder in minimally verbal children. Cochrane Database of Systematic Reviews, 11(11). As well as: Kasari, C., Shire, S. Shih, W., Landa, R., Levato, L., & Smith, T. (2023). Spoken language outcomes in limited language preschoolers with autism and global developmental delay: RCT of early intervention approaches. Autism Research, 16(6), 1236-1246. as examples, are much more credible and valid than Fortune. ATC . Talk 03:16, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Also most ABA autism clinics are less intensive, and are naturalistic, child-led and play-based now (and Lovaas' form of ABA is only used for nonverbal kids with lower receptive language skills). Lovaas' therapy was a lot more than teaching eye contact, and fine and gross motor skills. For example, the child could be asked to "point to something you wear", drink from a cup, imitate a single toy play action, etc. Not only did I do very well from the program when I was young (which got me to speak and respond to my name being called by the time I turned 4 and a half), I've been to an ABA autism clinic. A kid's parents told me "We tried speech therapy for many years and saw no progress and just a year of ABA at the clinic, his vocabulary exploded and he started speaking." A friend since middle school said they tried ABA with her little cousin and it didn't work nor did he do well from it. Years later, when we were in high school, she said her little cousin received it from another therapist, and he did really well from it and learned a lot. Even Temple Grandin endorses ABA (and noted that the speech therapy program she had as a young girl consisted a lot of what's seen in high quality ABA therapy program today). There is still a lot of misinformation about ABA. ATC . Talk 03:44, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
 * You're inadvertently highlighting one of many major issues with ABA (and with its practitioners not having any formal training in autistic neurology). ASD is a developmental disability (not a behavioral one), meaning that autistic people often meet developmental milestones at different times than their neurotypical peers.  You have absolutely no proof, for example, that that child's "vocabulary exploded" because of ABA.  They might have simply not been ready to audibly speak until that point.  On the same token, you may not have been ready to speak until you turned 4.5.  This is the kind of thing RCTs (particularly those with large sample sizes) are helpful in ruling out.
 * It's also worth mentioning that ABA is very much an oralist discipline that focuses heavily on trying to force non-speaking Autistics to audibly speak (while ignoring or even discouraging alternative forms of communication, like sign language or AAC use).
 * As for Temple Grandin, you're correct; she's endorsed certain forms of ABA. She's also refused to explicitly state vaccines don't turn children autistic, because she claims she finds the personal anecdotes of the anti-vaxxer parents she's spoken with to be too compelling to dismiss (making her the darling of many anti-vaxxer groups, who sell books about her and point to her for validation).  Despite her professional background and lived experience, Grandin is not a reliable scientific source on autistic neurology, ABA or vaccine science.  It's deeply unfortunate that neurotypicals (and even many Autistic people, such as yourself) have hoisted her up as some kind of pillar of the Autistic community, when she's no more than a token who spends her time spreading misinformation.  I don't consider "Temple Grandin says…" to be a valid argument in any context. DoItFastDoItUrgent (talk) 18:15, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
 * You are wrong. According to the American Speech Language-Hearing Association website, the picture exchange communication system (PECS; an AAC) is an evidence-based form of ABA, and sign language is widely used in verbal behavior and ABA programs as well. ATC . Talk 21:45, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
 * @ATC You've had weeks to respond to requests to revert the weasel language you inserted about Autistic advocates "considering" ABA controversial and to reinsert the Fortune article citation. Thus far, your only response has been to baselessly claim that citing mainstream media sources violates Wikipedia policy.  You've also blatantly ignored the guidance of the editors who oversaw the dispute filed against you by another editor roughly a year ago (namely, to seek talk-page consensus before making any such changes to the introductory paragraph).  I have no choice but to now file a new formal dispute.  I will notify you on your user talk page once the dispute has been opened. DoItFastDoItUrgent (talk) 08:57, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Stigmatizing wording, and downplaying the absurdity of trying to "cure" or even "treat" Autism.
This article needs a complete rewrite, best done by ACTUALLY AUTISTIC PEOPLE for the love of god. Right now I'm really mad and frustrated, but I'll come back to this when I have the energy, for now, this should suffice. We will never be cured, because we were never sick in the first place. Love to fellow neurodoverse ppl and actual allies❤️♾️ Au (talk) 17:20, 8 July 2023 (UTC)


 * I would actually try to contact the moderators to block edits from unregistered users on this article. Seems like opinionated random(?) people off the internet. Gamma1138 (talk) 16:57, 21 July 2023 (UTC)
 * ABA is not just used with people on the spectrum. Joyandcaring (talk) 16:54, 10 February 2024 (UTC)
 * ABA practitioners often claim expertise regarding a number of complex neurotypes (including the autistic and ADHD neurotypes) and complex conditions (including PTSD and depression). Perhaps you could explain how this could possibly be so when not even those with a doctorate focusing on ABA have to take a single course examining such neurotypes and conditions from a neurological or otherwise medical perspective and certainly don't have to learn anything about neurodivergent (including Autistic or ADHD) history or culture.  BTW, if you had such cultural training, you would know that the majority of the Autistic population prefers the label "Autistic" to euphemisms, like "on the spectrum." DoItFastDoItUrgent (talk) 18:15, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
 * No, not just, but overwhelmingly. Oolong (talk) 09:16, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
 * It needs to be reviewed and rewritten by someone with experience in this area, like a psychiatrist, pediatrician, etc. who doesn't have a conflict of interest in this area like all the study authors related to this do.
 * Autism spectrum disorder as listed in the DSM can be treated to reduce challenges autistic people may face in their life, such as in cases of being non-verbal, self-harming, etc. Someone not liking how an autistic person communicates isn't a medical issue that needs treatment and any psychiatrist that isn't being paid to sell a miracle cure will tell you that. 134.215.176.89 (talk) 21:21, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
 * ABA was never designed to cure anyone from autism. It's the application of the science of behavior analysis to understand the function of behavior and differentially reinforce new behaviors or skills. In the context of autism, Lovaas (the founder of discrete trial teaching and early intensive behavior intervention for autism) was the first to point out that ABA does not change anything on the physiological level. And ABA is an evidence-based practice for a number of conditions, including&mdash;but not limited to&mdash;autism. ATC . Talk 00:23, 26 February 2024 (UTC)