Talk:Apsara Dance

False copyvio detection
The Earwig detector claims of copyvio look like false alarms: our article (2011) apparently pre-dates these sites. Викидим (talk) 00:44, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Modern recreation for tourists
It seems that the dance is actually very modern and created to lure tourists (see the sources at the end). Someone really need to rewrite at least the lead to reflect it. Викидим (talk) 01:02, 7 April 2024 (UTC)


 * If you refer to the source by Ponsiri Yuwadee, that's actually the so-called "Apsara dance" in Thailand, which was created very recently and obviously take inspiration from the Khmer one. This article refers to the original Khmer one, which was a 1940s revival of the ancient Apsara culture in Cambodia (Angkor period, 802–1431 AD).
 * But still the article has few to no references cited... From what I've read the informations are pretty accurate, there must be ressources available on internet to back the article. Pierrevang3 (talk) 23:10, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
 * I was referring to Daugbjerg et al. that seems to describe Cambodia. Yes, 1940s. They talk about the commodification of apsara on p. 35. Викидим (talk) 02:17, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
 * There is a film that discusses the creation of the Apsara Dance called "The Perfect Motion" by Xavier de Lauzanne, but I haven't seen it myself. It references primary sources and features interviews with Princess Norodom Buppha Devi.
 * As for the Daugbjerg et al source mentioned, it seems kind of biased and heavy handed with the wording, it is western centric, focusing too much on supposed colonial inspirations (conjecture by western authors). Khmer Classical Dance existed prior to colonial times. The source says something about commodifying the Apsara, however that language is pretty charged. What would make more sense is the revival of the Apsara, and Khmer Classical Dance, of which the traditions were almost lost due to the events of the Khmer Rouge. MosheeYoshee (talk) 06:44, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
 * I have no deep knowledge in this area (and no personal opinion), but the authors of this work appear to be experts. Also, the other research works that I have seen support their points. There is clearly no colonial tilt in this widely held position: see, where Norodom Buppha Devi says, "The delicate Apsara dance, for instance, is also part of the reconstruction and revival programme; however, contrary to popular belief, it has a comparatively recent history." Викидим (talk) 10:29, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
 * The Apsara dance as it is today was undoubtedly crafted in the mid-20th century but it wasn't created to lure tourists at all. Tourism in Cambodia in the mid-20th was not really a thing...
 * From what I recall, the first presentation of this ballet was performed for the French film L'Oiseau de paradis (1962) by Marcel Camus. The film director filmed a representation of the ballet in Angkor Wat and wanted a costume similar to those engraved on the bas-reliefs. Since then it got really popular and became the most well-known dance among the repertoire of the ballet. Pierrevang3 (talk) 10:44, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
 * The sources suggest the roots to grow deeper, into the colonial times. Yes, the mass tourism of today did not exist in 1920s, the international travel was a thing for very rich people - but 1000 tourists came to Cambodia in the first half of 1931, French had a 5-star hotel built, as well as an airport to fly tourists to Angkor in a 4-seater plane. Charlie Chaplin visited in 1936 (all according to a not very good source ). I do believe that I've read somewhere about the ballet creation influenced by these events - but I might be mistaken and ready to concede on tourism as an impetus for Cambodian ballet if good sources are found that say otherwise. Викидим (talk) 10:57, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
 * I mean the royal ballet did not perform for tourists in the first place so I can hardly see a correlation there. The first time the ballet performed for the main public was in 1931 for the universal exposition in Paris with the presence of king Sisowath. Pierrevang3 (talk) 11:28, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
 * As I said, I have very limited knowledge on the subject. Daugbjerg et al. say that there were performances in 1923 in Paris in front of an Angkor Vat replica. The name of George Groslier is mentioned (p. 28). Викидим (talk) 11:41, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
 * I hear that, that's why I am informing you that the Apsara dance was not created to lure the very few tourists in Cambodia. My bad for the date, actually it performed in Marseille during the colonial exposition not the universal exposition, but either way the troupe was accompanied by the King. Pierrevang3 (talk) 11:52, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Found this paper from the Royal Academy of Cambodia. It's very insightful and even provides a picture of the first girl student dancer at Sothearos school. According to this source, the dance was created in 1958 in Sothearos school. Pierrevang3 (talk) 14:00, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
 * The great source you have found should be added to the article, IMHO. Викидим (talk) 19:12, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

It is mentioned in the article that it was created in the 1950s as a revised form of the 'Phuong Neary' dance, which existed prior. The 'Phuong Neary' dance uses the same music as the Apsara dance, the Apsara dance uses altered lyrics. Relating to your concern about dance being a recreation for tourists, the Tuchman-Rosta article mentions the tourist aspect of dance as merely a by product of conservation efforts. It was also mentioned in the discussion that the royal ballet did not perform for tourists during King Sisowath's reign. MosheeYoshee (talk) 03:13, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
 * (1) I have no position on tourists and thus will not argue. However, (2) the modernity of the dance needs to be acknowledged in the lead, and the text needs to include French colonial influence IMHO. (3) "Conservation" assumes that there was some ancient custom to preserve, which apparently is not the case: the dance is entirely modern, as acknowledged by Norodom Buppha Devi (see above) and by the Royal Academy of Cambodia per . It was inspired not by ancient dance, but by the truly ancient depictions of dancers. --Викидим (talk) 04:45, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Like I mentioned previously, the dance is adapted from the Phuong Neary dance. The Phuong Neary dance existed prior. One of the major differences between the two dances are the costumes. If you are trying to say that the costume is the colonial influence, then that can be explored.
 * I wasn't clear before. You wanted to explore the aspects of tourism so I mentioned the Tuchman-Rosta article. It examines tourism as a byproduct of the conservation of Khmer dance, which was almost lost, post Khmer civil war and the rebuilding period. MosheeYoshee (talk) 04:54, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
 * (1) I do want to explore the influence of tourism. However, to me this is a secondary goal and not really important when compared to the alleged newness of the dance. Thus, if our reading of the sources will turn up conflicting accounts on the tourism aspect, a solution of not mentioning the tourism at all will be OK with me. However, with all reliable sources that I know pointing to the 20th century origins of the Apsara Dance, this fact has to be prominently acknowledged in the article IMHO. (2) I am unable to find any good sources on "Phuong Neary". Is there a typo somewhere? In the article, it is used as a person, not a dance, BTW. Викидим (talk) 05:15, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Robam Phuong Neary is a dance and it was mentioned in the Angkor database article (of which paraphrases the Apsara Dance book). Comparing visually from videos of Robam Phuong Neary and Robam Apsara they also appear somewhat similar. The music is identical, aside from the lyrics. Gestures and movements were already established in Khmer dance so I'm not sure how anything other than the costume, would be considered a 'colonial influence'. Even then the costume is of apsara on Khmer temples, so that really isn't a colonial influence in itself.
 * I agree its an interesting discussion, but singly using the Daujberg article doesn't seem very helpful. MosheeYoshee (talk) 05:34, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
 * (1) I am not proposing to use just the Daujberg article. The same statement (dance was invented in the 20th century) is made in other sources listed here. (2) I am unable to find any research work on Google Scholar or book on Google Books that references the "Phuong Neary". Can you point me to any WP:RS that states the ancient origin of this dance? Викидим (talk) 10:21, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
 * I agree that the dance was newly created. However is your assertion that Khmer dance in general was 'invented' in that period or that the Apsara dance was newly choreographed? Written in Khmer Phuong Neary is ភួងនារី . Most articles that I've seen reference the Apsara dance book written by Narom Keo and Sisaphanta Prum (former member of the royal ballet, ballet teacher and classical dance historian), which says that that second 'portion' (begins around halfway through the dance) of the Apsara dance was taken from the Phuong Neary dance. For example, if you watch videos of the dance, you can see that the endings of the Apsara dance and Phuong Neary dance are almost identical with slight variations as the dancers move in a serpentine fashion 'flying' away from the stage. MosheeYoshee (talk) 20:21, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
 * The Apsara Dance book says that Professor Chea Samy (royal palace ballet dancer since the age of 6, who went on to teach dance at the Royal University of Fine Arts) choreographed the dance using the Phuong Neary dance and selected the music at the request of Queen Kossamak. MosheeYoshee (talk) 20:57, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Title
Should we move it to Apsara dance? Most sources use regular capitalization. Викидим (talk) 11:25, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Thailand
Thailand had apparently copied the dance for commercial purposes (see Ponsiri's work in the list of sources). Викидим (talk) 11:28, 8 April 2024 (UTC)