Talk:Arab Christians/Archive 1

No such thing as Christian Arabs in Iraq
We Assyrians and Chaldeans are ethnically Assyrian, not Arab. So I removed Iraq as one of the countries in the article. Chaldean 20:57, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Jordan
I deleted "Still, Arab Christians in today may decend from Arab christians of pre-Islam era, who manly concentrated in the area known today as Jordan." as I do not know where the evidence for a Jordanian concentration comes from. Christianity before Islam was widespread before the rise of Islam throughout the Byzantine Empire, so I would not say it was concentrated in Jordan. There were numberous early Christian communities in the countries that surround Jordan as well. I think the article already notes that modern Arab Christians are descended from pre-Islamic Christians. Let me know if I'm missing something here.

--Lost Pal

Numbers

 * From my understanding, the number of Christians in Lebanon has reduced as a percentage from the 50% or so at the time of French rule. The CIA world factbook claims 39%, although numbers are difficult to estimate as there hasn't been a census since independence. Have added a comment about this to the text and tried to tidy it up a bit Vino s 14:20, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

- The arab christians from lebanon syria iraq jordan are Syriacs, when will the arabification of the syriacs and other minoritys end. I think that this article should have a pov check due to that it is very political and not objectiv, and not historical correct.

Michael 23:18, 19 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Please stop your POVing of articles. You are crossing the line.  There are plenty of Christians in Syria, Lebanon, and Jordan who identify as Arabs. Yuber(talk) 23:28, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

-- You mean there are many christians that have no choice but beeing identified as Arabs. please dont play ignorant and face the facts about the arab regimes with their arabization agenda. Michael 09:45, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Khalil Gibran
He is not arab.


 * Gibran claimed many times he is Arab. One of his poems says: Nation of Arabs what proud to belong to you.


 * I would like to see that poem, any links? Also check out the article on Khalil Gibran, a few editors are constantly claiming that he was of Assyrian descent. If he was Assyrian, then why is it not mentioned in biographies on him. Last time I checked he didn't read/speak/write Assyrian, he didn't write about Assyrians, he didn't participate in Assyrian American events and organizations or involve himself in Assyrian politics so the claim is unsubstantial and peculiar. Do you know if he was Assyrian or not? --Inahet 03:21, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

A Solution
People reading this want to know about Assyrians, Chaldeans, Syriacs, Copts, Eastern Rite Christians in the Arab world, etc., many but not all of whom have non-Arab origins. I think we should just do a new article called Semitic Christians (or Christian Semites). Adam Mathias 20:35, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
 * I disagree. Arab Christians are a real group, and Christian Semites is too confusing of terminology and we would be able to find no sources for it. Yuber(talk) 20:49, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

you talk to much crap Yuber, There are not that many arab christians.

Michael 21:29, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

Please avoid personal attacks. There are many Arab Christians and my grandma is one of them : ). Yuber(talk) 22:51, 28 January 2006 (UTC) - There are still not many arab christians, copts arent arabs, maronites arent arabs, syriacs arent arabs, assyrians arent arabs, chaldeans arent arabs. The christian palestinians arent arabs. the list goes on and on... but ofcource, this is very hard for the arab nationalists to accept. but nevertheless fact of life. Michael 09:14, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
 * What on earth do you mean the Christian Palestinians aren't Arabs? Have you ever talked to any of them? Here in Syria as well there are probably well over a million Arab Christians. You seem to be bent on getting some ideological grievance of yours onto Wikipedia instead of looking at facts. Palmiro | Talk 10:28, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

--- The problem with you people is that you dont know the difference between identity or ethnology. The "Palestinians" cannot be arabs. It is historical ethnical cultural wrong to say that they are arabs. The only reason they claim that they are arabs is due to the fact that they are both moselms (that is the only combining factor). Whearas the name arab and palestinian have nothing in common, neither racial, cultural nor tradition (exept the islamic tradition). the reasons palestinians say they are "arabs" is merly political. and politic ideology isnt welcomed here in wikipedia, here we speek of scientific facts and strife for historical accuracy. Michael 11:50, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

PS: christian palestinians dont have much chance of saying other things, for example in the syriac orthodox curch, the patriarch stated that we all are arab? wich is laugable for the reason that I personally met him and he clerly stated that we are not(statement was based on political reasons). Thus again, political statements nor ideologies must not be applied in these articles wich requires objectiviness and to be accurate. And if you are interested on understanding the arabification of minoritys and how ethnicy and identity intermingels please got to your nearest university and take some crash course to learn more. Michael 11:56, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

And about the christians from syria? are you speaking of the melkites? or wich christian group? all I have to do Is to ask to go and read about the history of the curch that you claim is Arab here in wikipedia and please check if they claim themselves as arabs. Michael 11:58, 29 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, I live in Syria and get to talk to quite a lot of Syrian Christians. And I also know quite a few Palestinian Christians. Now, almost all of them - maybe all of them - are Greek Orthodox, Greek Catholic, Protestant or Maronite, but they all think of themselves as Arabs. Of course the Greek Orthodox Church is not an Arab church (in fact its lacking high Arab officials in Palestine is a frequent complaint of its Palestinian members) but its Syrian and Palestinian members are Arabs and in my experience pretty much always think of themselves as such. If you cannot find any evidence for your anti-Arab jihad could you please call a halt to it? Palmiro | Talk 12:08, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

-- Still you havent read a thing about them, What they call themselves in Syria (muchabarat) and the arabization is at its peak is not presicely what I call objective. If you want the truth then you have to go beond your own experiance and believes, eventhough sometimes it hurts to realize somethings that you didnt expect. Like the fact that maronites, melkites, syrian orthodox are Syrians. Oh well, I wont waist my time to explain to you why the arab identity is based on a lie, nor will I distrubt your dream on that above mentioned are arab christians, you can have your arab dream. altough the arab ideology is now almost complete in those areas to. And there will no longer be any chrisitian left in those areas but only in footnotes. And if you dont believe that then you only have to go to websites that provied statistics about populations in countrys.

Sweet dreams. Michael 12:43, 29 January 2006 (UTC) // [this user will no longer reply any comment here]
 * So you, in Sweden, have a right to tell Syrians what their ethnic identity is? That is arrogant and stupid. Palmiro | Talk 13:17, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
 * It seems this guy has not heard of Michel Aflaq and Constantin Zureiq. Maybe he should avoid these articles, as they would destroy his entire theory. Yuber(talk) 15:05, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Benne's and Michael's assertions that Maronites and Melkites are "Syriacs", are totally fantasist: they are 100% arabized since the XVIIth-XVIIIth century and even if a few present-day Maronites (but no Melkite) claim non-Arab ethnic ancestries (mostly Phoenician or Mardaite), an eminent Maronite (converted to Protestantism) scholar, Butrus al-Bustani, was one of the main initiators of the Arab cultural revival in the XIXth century, an Orthodox Melkite teacher, Michel Aflaq, was one of the three founders and ideologue of the Ba'th party in the 1940s, Nayef Hawatmeh and George Habash, both Palestinian or Jordanian Melkite Orthodox, have been the founders of two left-wing (Arab) Palestinian organizations (PFLP and DFLP) etc. The genetic origins of the Middle Eastern ethnic groups and communities or the languages spoken by their ancesters is not relevant for their present-day ethnic and national identification. Keep also in mind that individuals do have a choice of their own, more so in complex ethnonational situations. Pylambert 08:09, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

non-Arab Middle East Christians
I think people discussing here should have a look at the doings of some anti-Arab Christian activists at the Assyrian-related articles. They even designed a totally inaccurate and propagandist Syriacs box, mentioning Maronites and Melkites as "Syriacs", thus non-Arabs, which I proposed for deletion here. Pylambert 23:07, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Christian percentages
The old numbers were way off! Check the CIA Factbook, BBC, and other contemporary sources they all say the same thing! Syria's pop is 18 million and the most educated estimation is that Chritians make up 10% of the country, 10% of 18 000 000 is MORE than 1,000,000 ..do the math yourself. Lebanon has a pop 3.8 Million, so 39% of 3.8M is over 1M --Georgios 19:39, 13 May 2006 (UTC) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by George Al-Shami (talk • contribs) 00:56, 4 May 2006.


 * Not all Christian in Syria are arab - a little over 50% are. Most people now say Lebanon is 25-30% and not all of the are arab. Do more research, and look up Assyrians Chaldean 03:11, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

deliberately misleading people
Chaldean you are misleading people by writing one thing and then providing numbers for another thing.

You say that in the beginning that Arab Christians are those who are ethinaclly Arab and those who are from Mediterranean orgins who have been Arabized....

So by your definition, Arab Christians inculde ALL CHRISITANS living in the RESPECTIVE Arab countries,

therefore it makes no sense to place unscientific DEFLATED numbers ..such as the ones you are providing.

Chaldean, PLEASE just look at the facts...you cite the "demographics Syria" page and this webpage you are citing states that Syria is 10% Christian, So DO THE MATH, how much is 10% of 18.5 Million people...

you have a responsiblity not to mislead people, and to use facts that are backed up by the established academic circles...

The BBC contacts professsors and Middle East pundits for their articles....and these pundits always state that there is 750 000 Iraqi Christians...but you keep saying that there is ONLY 5,500 Iraq Chrisitians, this is very laughable and unprofessional of you! There are more than 20 churches in Iraq, so how could there be only 5, 500 Christians in Iraq!!!!!!!!!!!! --Georgios 19:39, 13 May 2006 (UTC)


 * PLEASE just look at the facts...you cite the "demographics Syria" page and this webpage you are citing states that Syria is 10% Christian, So DO THE MATH, how much is 10% of 18.5 Million people... Yea, also read about how it goes on and says only about half are Greek Church members (arabs), the rest belonging to Armenian, Assyrian, and Syriac Churchs
 * Here are some sources for Syria:  Chaldean 23:17, 18 May 2006 (UTC)


 * and these pundits always state that there is 750 000 Iraqi Christians...but you keep saying that there is ONLY 5,500 Iraq Chrisitians, this is very laughable and unprofessional of you! There are more than 20 churches in Iraq, so how could there be only 5, 500 Christians in Iraq
 * boy you need some help. And no, there are 20 churches in Iraq, try more like 200 Chaldean 23:33, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Embarrasement and Shame on the Syriacs here
Who are you Chaldeans and Syriacs to be designating whose Arab and whose not in this entry? Have you never heard of the Arab nationalistic founders of various Palestinians groups and Lebanese pan-Arab orthodox groups? Still if many Arab Chirstians "do not consider themselves arab" its does not matter becase they are not ethnically Arab. I was especially outraged when you an extremist user said on thsi page that Palestinians and Lebanese Christians are NOT arabs. There is no difference in the ethnic and genetic makeup between Muslim Lebanese and Christian Lebanese. They are the same people you retard. I am a Lebanese and Palestinian Chirstian and I am PROUD to be an Arab. It is outrageous, it as if being an Arab is an insult or something, this is how some users make it soud! Pure racism and denial. So you extremists out there stop skewing information: Wikipedia should not bow to couple of bias people and compromise the factuality of this article simply because they ask for it. Even Chaldeans, whether you like it or not, to your great surprise guess what: you are arabs. Your have been so assimilitaed into Arab culture and society over the centuries from Lebanon to Iraq that you are considered as Iraqi Christians or Arab Christians. And i am not going to say "no offense" because if you do take offense then you are a racist and should not be editing this article. I know btw, countless Chaldeans who admit to being Arabs (still if they do not admit, like the Sirs here, they still are). So stop this nonsense and be logical and fair. This is propostrous and outrageous so to all anti-Arabs out there, you may have your opinions but keep them out of the pages and keep the facts straight. And, there is a lot of bias on Syriac and Assyrian related articles here. Many changes are bound to come. --Doge120 05:53, 9 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Stop crying. Educate yourself. Iraq is not Lebanon. Chaldean 19:03, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
 * "Even Chaldeans, whether you like it or not, to your great surprise guess what: you are arabs.  " - Please go educate yourself. Chaldean 19:03, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

SHAKIRA and her ETHNICITY
Every time i check Shakira's wikipage, her ethnicity has been changed! What is wrong with people? When it is written she is "Lebanese", almost instantly it is corrected to "Catholic Lebanese". What is the big deal? It seems there are some obsessed Christians who cannot bare to think that Shakira is associated with Lebanon (an arab country). In actual fact, Lebanon is a very diverse country with a great demography- to enlighten yourself, check out the Lebanon wikipage. And in response to a previous comment on this page ("Recent Edit"Drdr1989), it is not true when its written that Catholic Lebanese are not arabs. In actual fact they are. The vast majority of Arabs in the United States are in fact Christian, not Muslim. There are indeed many thousands of Christian Arabs in the world, so it should not be assumed that Arabs are always Muslim. Shakira is of Lebanese descent and when she descirbes it, you never hear her add in ..."but im Catholic". She is proud of her Arab hertiage and demonstrates this by influencing her choice of music, lyrics and dancing (the song 'Ojos Asi' and her frequent bellydancing in her music videos).

Furthermore, in response to a further comment (by She Mourns 01:22, 22 July 2006 (UTC)): Please do not generalise when you say the Christian Lebanese are of "Phoenician, aramaic, greek..." descent. I am indeed a Christian Lebanese along with 30% of the population of Lebanon and would identify myself as Arab; because i speak Arabic, live in an Arab country, practise Arabic traditions and customs and conform to the Arabic culture. And although a lot of us Christian Lebanese have "Phoenician, aramaic, greek.." and so forth blood, in the centuries the Arabs have occupied Lebanon, the mix over and cross-breeding (as i put it) of Arabs and non-Arabs is particularly high and many Christian Lebanese (and Syrians, Egyptians and so forth) have Arab blood. Please try and understand this, and to help you understand visit the Wikipage on Arabs, to check out "who exactly is an Arab?" and what identifies one as Arab; and Shakira (or her father as it is) would definately come under a few classifications. Just as one can be a Jew but not actually follow Judaism, an understanding of the etymology of a word has to take place before people start to panick over such labelings.

People need to relax and stop obsessing over her ethnicity. If it is written that she has Lebanese blood, than this is the truth. If it is written she is has Catholic Lebanese blood, then this is also the truth. It is up to people who read the page to read about Lebanon too. However, those who wish to disassociate Shakira with her Arab ancestry are illogical and will fail, and if they were true fans of the singer, would not be so sensitive in having her real ethnicity detailed.

Written by a Christian Arab. Please do not edit/delete. Any queries regarding the comment, please contact Tism2004@hotmail.com


 * "identify myself as Arab; because i speak Arabic, live in an Arab country, practise Arabic traditions and customs and conform to the Arabic culture. " - well guess what buddy; I speak Syriac, practice Assyrian traditions and customs and conform to the Assyrian culture. Thus I identify myself as Assyrian. The Christian arab nationalist here need to get this into their melon; not everyone in the middle east is arab. Thats like saying all of Europe is made of "white people". Chaldean 14:13, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Apologies to [Chaldean]for what he percieves as my Christian Arab Nationalist tendencies. I am not making generalisations that everyone in the Middle East is Arab and im sorry if thats what you thought. I acknowledge the ancient minorities such as the Syriacs and how they do not identify as Arab but lots of Christians particularly in Lebanon and Palestine do. The purpose for the section on Shakira was in response to some negativity regarding the subject on her discussion page on wikipedia and i wanted to see some responses to this on this wikipage. No offence caused. By the Christian Arab 13:37 25 August 2006


 * I dont argue the fact that Christians in Palestine and Lebanon are considered arab. But when you say there are 300,000 Christian arabs in Iraq, thats an insult. Christians in Lebanon speak arabic and acustome to arab community, its not the same with us in Iraq and Syria. Chaldean 19:09, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Did i say it was?! 18:53 26 August 2006 by Christian Arab

She said many times she is proud of her Arabic heritage--Katous1978 06:00, 18 February 2007 (UTC)