Talk:Arab Spring/Archive 4

Libya
It seems that Libya has now taken the record for most violent protest. We currently have the article saying that details are hard to verify in terms of the attacks on protesters with snipers, helicopter-gunships, and tanks. But this article seems to have quite a few details. And it also has a death total, which is 140 for just this one attack. Silver seren C 09:47, 20 February 2011 (UTC)


 * I took out some of the "reportedly" language and added events (horrific as they are) for today. I am not doing highly detailed coverage on this page; figured the Libyan protests page was better for that and have mostly left that page to others. Here I am focusing (when I can) on a capsule of critical events in Libya as I understand them.  Any further feedback or suggestions are most welcome.

Praghmatic (talk) 20:08, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

What is the best way to shorten and summarize the libya section and move it to the libyan protest page?Trakrecord 00:58, 22 February 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Trakrecord (talk • contribs)

Given the intensity of and interest in current events in Libya, as well as the great difficulties getting clear information on them, I have restored the 'timeline' view along with many sourced details which were deleted when the entry was condensed.

In a perfect world, the text in this section would indeed be a condensed version of the expanded coverage on the main Libya Protests page. As it happens, in the current state of the world and chaos therein, these entries are being written separately by separate people. The 'main' page contains bulleted details within a timeline far more verbose than this one. This page contains a slightly more analytic condensation of essential points which may be useful to many readers.

In the fullness of time, lots of editing for consistency, brevity, and retrospective accuracy of all the entries on these events in Libya will be appropriate, but please do not delete lots of carefully sourced info regarding dire events of the past 72 hours for the sake of (what seems to me to be) an idealized conception of the relationships in word count and structure between related topics. Praghmatic (talk) 02:54, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

Edit request Maghreb
The current lede of the article says;


 * "that began in the predominantly Arab countries of the Middle East and North Africa."

Could someone please change it to;


 * "that began in the predominantly Arab countries of the Middle East and Maghreb."

Per WP:W2W the current north africa definition is incorrect as it includes way more countries. Thanks 84.13.28.51 (talk) 14:36, 20 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Actually, it is correct, since a majority (over 50%) of the states in North Africa were affected by protests. "North Africa" is more inclusive in this case than the Maghreb, since it also includes Egypt, Djibouti and Sudan - all of them places where various-sized protests took place. Cypher foo (talk) 00:17, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I think his intention was to highlight that this began in the Maghreb (Algeria/Tunisia to be specific), the protests spread later to Egypt, French Somaliland and Northern Sudan. --Smart30 (talk) 00:37, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Oh, right, sorry, didn't spot that. Yes, of course it began in the Maghreb, Tunisia's right in the middle of it. However, the events in Egypt can reasonably be included in the "beginning" of the protests, since they had a much larger effect in the Arab world, due to Egypt's sheer size and influence compared to Tunisia. The way i see it, Tunisia was the match, Egypt was the gunpowder and the protests taking place right now are the cannonball that has just left the barrel. :) Cypher foo (talk) 00:53, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
 * The Middle East and North Africa (MENA) is the appropriate toponym, not least because many Americans mistakenly lump in this mega-region with the Middle East, Orientalism being what it is. kencf0618 (talk) 05:43, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
 * With the addition of Horn of Africa nations such as Somalia and Djibouti an argument could be made that "Middle East and Africa" is more appropriate. Then you could include Gabon. ZeLonewolf (talk) 15:47, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

Self-immolation section
The section titled Self-immolation has been tagged as a list that may be better presented as prose. Personally, I think the list works better and would prefer it to stay like that. If events warrant it, it could even be split into a standalone list in the future, which would also help with the length of this article. Also, the list appears sortable, but the sorting doesn't seem to be working correctly. I will try to fix. Matt Deres (talk) 15:58, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I have fixed the sorting issue (the colspan note at the bottom was interfering). Matt Deres (talk) 16:03, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
 * While some of the people on the list may be notable how about all the unknowns? Do we really need like 6 or 7 unknowns on the table? Some of the people on the list also fail WP:Notability (People) - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 17:00, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
 * WP:Notability (People) is about the subjects of articles; people mentioned within an article or list do not have to meet that standard individually. Matt Deres (talk) 17:16, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

Injury count
I certainly dont think the number of injured should be under stated as over 500. lets do the maths....that was probbly the number of injured in just Egypt during the revolution. Make it above 5000 - i think that will be definitely right. It will take in all the injured, ((and who continue to get injured)) in:
 * Libya
 * Yemen
 * Bahrain

Apart from this I belive, all Egypt and Bahrain injured --> must be accounting for thousands already! Obviously we cant correctly put a death toll - there are unconfirmed sources to half the protests example Libya, whilst the others wil take time to compile! But we can estimate the injured tolls! Jasmine revolution tolls if made to include the Iranians will also have hundreds added as injured! Wherever there were massive crackdowns I think addition os 100's of injured should be made. As it is Its an estimate, so we dont have to source it completely! Discuss and change accordingly! PranavJ 17:08, 20 February 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pranav21391 (talk • contribs)
 * I think you misunderstand the nature of estimates on Wikipedia. We can report other news agencies' or human rights org.s' estimates; we cannot make our own.  Our WP:RS and WP:NOR policies cover this, if you'd like to take a look.  The best thing would be to find a good source, like a major newspaper or NGO that has done a body/injury count, and then we can report on that. Ocaasi (talk) 23:30, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

Infobox image
The flag map image is not about the protests, it's just flags, simply decorative with no relevance to the article. The image should either be the present photo or the previous map.--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 17:17, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

Morocco is major?
As seen in today's NYTimes:

"Demonstrations began on Sunday in Morocco, where at least 10,000 people turned out in cities across the country to call for a change of government and for limitations on the power of the king, Mohammed VI. In the capital, Rabat, and in the largest city, Casablanca, there were between 3,000 and 4,000 protesters, as well as smaller demonstrations in other cities, like Marrakech and Tangier."

Is this major? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Watchreader (talk • contribs) 17:52, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
 * From today, February 20, its obviously major. The coloured map should reflect this change.--Zarateman (talk) 19:59, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Done --haha169 (talk) 21:37, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

China "protests"
According to the Financial Times, the “Jasmine Revolution” in China attracted more police and (western)journalists than would-be protesters on Sunday.. Vital456 (talk) 21:39, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

Updated SVG image to reflect changed title
Hi, there are now two SVG images available, one with non-Arab countries coloured in blue (for an Arab League based image) and one with all MENA countries coloured the same.

There has been a bit of to-and-fro in terms of colouring these, so it may take an hour or so before the image stabilises. gringer (talk) 21:51, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

I like the image to the left...however I don't understand why Somalia is divided in 2. 68.101.69.12 (talk) 21:54, 20 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Somaliland is shown separately. The left image makes it look like Bahrain is in Iran, at least at a low resolution. Ucucha 21:56, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Also, the rigt one shows Senegal as having major protests, but this article says all that happened there was one self-immolation. Ucucha 21:58, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Fixed. I am still confused about the green thing off of Madagascar. What is it? --haha169 (talk) 22:15, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
 * The Comoros, an Arab League member where nothing (as far as I know) has happened. Ucucha 22:18, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
 * The image on the left is having update issues because it has changed so much in the past hour or so. The one seen is not the most recent revision. --haha169 (talk) 22:17, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I think it is showing the most recent revision at the moment; it's no longer showing Bahrain as an Iranian enclave. Ucucha 22:19, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

If Senegal is Yellow then maybe Gabon should be too - ArnoldPlaton (talk) 23:10, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
 * the current overview map is wrong. Senegal and Albania are NOT parts of the MENALihaas (talk) 23:16, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Fixed. gringer (talk) 23:26, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

Somalia is 1 country. The fact that Somaliland is an independent region is irrelevant for the purposes of this map. Somalia should not be split into 2 countries.68.101.69.12 (talk) 02:11, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Okay, the general consensus seems to be that internal political regions and expected future updates are not a good idea for this map, so I've now combined the regions for Western Sahara, Somalia, and kept Sudan as one region. It seems that this is a situation where the ideals of the WP community differ from those of Natural Earth, so I need to be aware of that. gringer (talk) 23:01, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

Gaddaffi flees Libya?
Rumor has it amongst the crowds in Libya that Gaddaffi (however you spell it) as fled to Venezuela. Can anyone confirm or reject this development? I'm looking for a source right now. --Kuzwa (talk) 23:07, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
 * If its not a top search result on google news (which its not), you're probably not going to find a reliable source. --haha169 (talk) 23:08, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I doubly doubt the army strongman will flee this quick.Lihaas (talk) 23:11, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
 * This is false, as is now clear. Saif el-Islam Gaddafi just spoke on Libyan state TV, and made clear that his family is still in control of (part of) the country. Ucucha 23:55, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
 * He mentioned no such thing on the status of his family. See: backing up the possibility that the Colonel himself has left though his son is obviously still there. --Kuzwa (talk) 05:30, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

Overview map
was not removed because of the map, we dont template maps and all links are already cited MORE than once on the page, this would be overlink. We have a template (used for its appopriate purpose)_ AND links on each section already.Lihaas (talk) 23:09, 20 February 2011 (UTC) – HonorTheKing (talk) 23:29, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
 * We actually do template/map links on map images. United States of America is a prominent example. Besides, lots of people here don't know which country is which and have been complaining. We offer information, and we don't withhold it because it seems too colorful.--haha169 (talk) 23:18, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree with the above me, the clickable was created for the purpose of knowing which country is which and that you can press on it and get you to the right section. same as U.S. States and the issue there was same as here and it was resolved.
 * Agree with the labels. Most people are geographical idiots--no offense (myself included)--and having the labels in proximity on the map is a huge usability boost. Ocaasi (talk) 23:31, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
 * well we do have a major overlinking here.
 * also the size of the map is a little too big. what happened to the old decent size one? this takes up a major chunk of the page view. (mind you i just tried and one can click on everything een djibouti nd bahrain (though the latter is hard to see anwyays)Lihaas (talk) 05:49, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

Page moved again?
Who is performing these moves without prior discussion?? Colipon+ (Talk) 23:45, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
 * No one. I did move it, at the result of a well-supported requested move. Ucucha 23:54, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
 * The discussion is here, and consensus was to move to the current title. Ocaasi (talk) 23:55, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

Changing the name is really a bad idea !
The whole thing was sparked by Arab people, it's ridicules naming it something else! besides Middle East and North Africa is mostly Arabs ! why would you change it to a name that doesn't denote MORE geographical area ? I think someone wants to obliterate the ARAB WORD. No pun intended — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mkewan (talk • contribs) 00:05, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

The "Arab world" does not include places that protests have spread to, including Iran. That is why the name was changed. --haha169 (talk) 00:22, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
 * No reason to be upset by this. It was started by HUMANS and FREEMEN, it does not matter what language they speak or where their ancestors originate. --Smart30 (talk) 00:26, 21 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Why is it that when a discussion is going on nobody notices it and when it is over and there is a change people are like "What the hell just happened?" I started the move request two days ago and another discussion above has been going on for alot longer with at least 11 people supporting this title. Just my advice but sometimes it helps to pay attention to what goes on in the talk page so you wont get all confused if something major happens. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 00:59, 21 February 2011 (UTC)


 * And, even if you haven't been paying attention to the talk page, it's a good idea to take a look at the talk page first before making such posts. Kansan (talk) 06:14, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

October 10 2010
Why is this date listed as the starting point for the protests? It obviously started in Tunisia on December 18, or December17 if you consider the starting point Bouazzizzi's immolation. --Kuzwa (talk) 00:58, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
 * This presumably refers to previous (and arguably unrelated) protests in the Western Sahara. Ucucha 01:23, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

Serbian protest doesn't really fit in here
Serbian protest (which was barely noticed, even in Serbia) was in no way linked to the Arab protests that this article is about. It has been scheduled several months before it took place, and it has been talked about many months before even being scheduled. We can't just list every single protest taking place during this period and linking it to the "revolutionary wave". BytEfLUSh &#124; Talk!  01:02, 21 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Is there a way to place a notice about this in the edit box for editors to not add unrelated protests? Over at the anime and manga project on this page List of anime conventions you can edit the page but a notice appears above. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 01:05, 21 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Not sure, I was just waiting for a second opinion before going bold. :) The fact is that the main speaker at the protest mentioned Tunisia and Egypt, but it was only because it was a convenient time to do so. The protest was scheduled before any Arab uprising took place, so it's not really inspired by those protests. BytEfLUSh &#124; Talk!  01:16, 21 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Oh, just read your edit summary... The protest DID happen on Feb 5th, amidst all of the Arab protests happening, but it was announced months before. That's why I didn't edit the article - I don't think it's influenced by those protests (I'm fairly certain it isn't), but it did happen during that time period. BytEfLUSh &#124; Talk!  01:23, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
 * pleas e read the edit before removing, it happened before. can we get a source that itplanned to happen before the protests? the reasons are the same (As is kazakh on this list)
 * Also western sahara doesnt have ANY cite on the page, that makes it OR.Lihaas (talk) 05:17, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

Additional template
I added an additional navigation template to the article, as it makes it easier for a user to reach the related articles without having to scroll all the way down to the bottom template. This template I have added is not intended to replace but to complement the one at the bottom. User:HonorTheKing has been removing that useful template under the argument that the other template is already there. Can other users give their input on the issue? Note: Please see what the article would look like with this template thanks --Camilo Sanchez (talk) 02:05, 21 February 2011 (UTC) – HonorTheKing (talk) 02:13, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, for starters, it is not a particularly good template. Why only have the word "revolution" written in Arabic, when this article's scope now has moved beyond the realm of just the Arab World? The Scythian 02:07, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
 * That is the only image I found appropriate for now, the card can be edited out with a much better image. --Camilo Sanchez (talk) 02:10, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Against - I myself don't see any need for this, right now there are multiply linking to those articles, including bottom template, the sidebar Contents also have fast linking to it (under Countries), not to mention there is a full overview table with links and not to forget the clickable map which also does it.
 * In addition, in the article opening paragraph, it have links to all separate articles.
 * oppose it doesnt mention anything not already mentioned on the page as the above says.Lihaas (talk) 05:23, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Simply redundant. -- 87.17.225.119 Enok (talk) 10:49, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

Côte D'Ivoire
There's been major protests against Gbagbo, the president there. Maybe the country should be marked in the image too? I'm thinking orange? Same goes for Gabon. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.80.241.131 (talk) 02:20, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
 * What every country on the current list has in common is that it can trace its own protests back to the events in Tunisia (see Revolutionary wave, Domino theory). The 2010-2011 Ivorian crisis developed independently, before the Tunisian revolution. Gabon is arguably connected as Obame directly referenced Tunisia and called on people to take inspiration from it; that said, I'd like to see a little more discussion before any changes are made. DerekMBarnes (talk) 03:40, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Okay. I'll admit I don't know much about Gabon specifically, so I'll wait for the experts. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.80.241.131 (talk) 04:06, 21 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Here's some info on what's going on in Gabon. According to that source, the protesters were utterly crushed and the opposition dispersed. So...do we have a color for failed protests? Silver  seren C 16:03, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

Kuwait in Orange
Should Kuwait really be in orange, from what I can see there haven't really be any major demo's there yet, especially not relative to other countries in orange.Nwe (talk) 15:04, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Was wondering about that too. It doesn't seem like anything like the events in Libya, Yemen, or even Algeria has been taking place in Kuwait. Ucucha 15:50, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
 * In my view, the only "orange" level major protests have taken place in Algeria, Libya, Yemen, and Bahrain. Every other country should be considered 'minor' until further stories develop. Colipon+ (Talk) 17:17, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Agreed, Kuwait should be in green. There have been a handful of protests each numbering in the dozens or hundreds. In a country with 3.5 million people, how is this considered major? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.209.17.123 (talk) 17:22, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Change the summary table, and I'll change the map. I try to base my map off that table, rather than my guess as to what areas should be major/minor. gringer (talk) 22:45, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
 * That's fair, I suppose if two people die and they're calling in riot police, it might as well be labelled as "major." It just seems a little minor compared to the 10,000 or millions that appear in the other countries labeled as major. Khalid.math (talk) 02:45, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

International developments, China
I have removed sections on Bangladesh, Cyprus, and Senegal, and shaved off sections on China. Editors, please refrain from inserting these frivolous references to countries around the world until it has been well-established by verifiable sources that the events in those countries actually are inspired by the Tunisian or Epgyt revolt. This is not some content dump where every single protest happening around the world is to be disseminated. What's next, the protests in the state capitol of Wisconsin?? Was that inspired by Egypt too?

To address China specifically, a user reverted my removal of the line "China has removed coverage of protests in the Arab world." Firstly, the article cited for this sentence says no such thing - it merely says that some keywords are currently not searchable on Sina Weibo, a Twitter-like microblogging site. This is a self-censorship regime put in place by Sina and not an action taken by "China" or the Chinese government per se. Secondly, If you visit Xinhua's Chinese language website, there are two headlines that relate directly to the protests in Yemen, and Seif al-Islam's speech last night about potential civil war in Libya; none of these stories differ too much from what is being reported in the "Western" press. See state-media sources (Yemen), (Libya) and (Bahrain). They are not as prominently displayed, certainly, but they are certainly not "censored" or "removed". I agree that the government has taken some measures to ensure "stability" in response to the Arab protests (and I have left this section intact on the article), but the so-called 'protests' in China have been completely overhyped by some journalists and expats. Also, the reference to the 'creator' of China's internet censorship regime saying that censorship should be strengthened, again this is not directly linked to Egypt & Tunisia apart from pure speculation. Until this connection is established, it does not belong in the article.

Editors, please exercise some due diligence when making edits on these pages. Things are a bit chaotic and the worst thing we can do as Wikipedia is spread false information. Colipon+ (Talk) 15:59, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

Page move suggestion
To 2010–2011 protests in the Middle East and North Africa. Current title is awkwardly using two locations as a combined adjective to modify the noun "protests." postdlf (talk) 18:57, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

– HonorTheKing (talk) 21:06, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
 * For : I think the suggested title is better so I support it, sadly and funny it will be the 10th move.

Somalia is part of the Arab League but it's not part of North Africa or the Middle East. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.86.148.6 (talk) 21:13, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

Protests in Kurdistan
There have been protests in Kurdistan, which have been more serious than those in Iraq. Since Kuristan is autonomous, should this be recognised seperately on the map? Furthermore, Kurds are not Arabs, and so should it be recognised as protests outside the Arab world, in the same way the protests in Iran have been recognised? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.210.8.79 (talk) 19:15, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
 * First, Kurdistan is NOT considered an independent country. Second, the name of the article is 2010-2011 Middle East and North Africa Protests! That means pretty much everyone in this region is included, and that counts the Kurds.99.37.158.123 (talk) 20:41, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

Total number of deaths
I have noticed that the total number of deaths in Libya has risen significantly, but the total number of deaths have not. The new total is now +1162. Please correct me if i am wrong. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gunshot123 (talk • contribs) 19:50, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Is the international community doing anything about it? People seemed to care big deal about a couple of deaths in Egypt but when it came down to Libya nobody gave a s*it pardon the expression. No information regarding the UN or NATO on this regard either? Absolutely horrendous. --Camilo Sanchez (talk) 20:36, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Gunshot, we'll need a source for the total death estimate. Camily, try not to jump to conclusions.  Egypt is/was a much more open society in terms of press, access.  Libya has cracked down even harder on media, and that could well be the reason for the lack of good intel.  Also, Libya is now one of 'many' whereas Egypt had the limelight all to itself for a few weeks.  Keep an eye out on foreign media; there are lots of ongoing efforts to keep track of these things with the best available information. Ocaasi (talk) 21:13, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I see your points. I just heard that most news networks are not allowed to go in Libya at the time so no wonder the Intel is kind of unreliable becuase of the lack of media. Libya is more closed to the world than Egypt which gives the protesters more reasons to protest against the regime.Gunshot123 (talk —Preceding undated comment added 21:22, 21 February 2011 (UTC).

So many redirects
This page has been moved so many time there are now at least five redirects to this page, do we really need all of them is my question? Wil lthe average reader really type these searches in?


 * 2010–2011 pro-democracy protests‎
 * 2010–2011 Arab Revolutions‎
 * 2010–2011 North Africa and Western Asia protests‎
 * 2010-2011 Arab world protests‎
 * 2010–2011 Middle East protests‎

- Knowledgekid87 (talk) 21:24, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Redirects don't harm anyone. All they can do is make it easier for people to find this article. Ucucha 21:25, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
 * That, and on the off chance somebody wants to create a duplicate article in those names, it saves time from that. Kansan (talk) 21:50, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
 * "Off chance" ... umm... see the section below ;-) Cs32en   Talk to me  22:01, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

"Jasmine Revolution"
Some editors are trying to create an article Jasmine Revolution, essentially duplicating the work that is being done here. Cs32en  Talk to me  21:43, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

Gaddafi speech
I just got news from Reuters from twitter that they got a report from Al Arabiya that Gaddafi was going to go on T.V to say a speech. Gunshot123 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 22:00, 21 February 2011 (UTC).

Jasmine Revolution in China?
How did this go from a bunch of proters in the streets marching in silence to this? Where are the sources that support a Revolution in China? - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 22:30, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
 * None really. The protests were squashed by the police, there is no revolution going on. Not right now, at least. Silver  seren C 22:35, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
 * And, dear god, that article is completely POV-ridden. It's horrible. Silver  seren C 22:36, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Another one bytes the dust... AfD this please... this is really getting out of hand by editors with WP:COI issues. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 22:37, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Someone IP user below is accusing us of working for the Chinese government. Colipon+ (Talk) 04:55, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Dont look in Jim Wale's basement... - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 18:11, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

Number of injured
Has anyone noticed that the number of injured in not accurate.The real total is +10510.--Gunshot123 (talk) 22:48, 21 February 2011 (UTC)Gunshot123 (talk)

Headings (minor edit request)
The date headings between Libya and Mauritania need to get an extra = on each side&mdash;i.e. they're currently level 2 and should be level 3. 86.6.193.43 (talk) 22:59, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

– HonorTheKing (talk) 01:19, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
 * It was done by someone, so fixed then.

A good idea
Could someone animated that big map of the middle east so we can see the 2011 changes that the countries have go through? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.142.210.220 (talk) 23:14, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

For - Although it seems like a hell of a job picking the proper maps (for a given date) considering all those discussions. Maybe once the discussions and protests have settled. --Elllit (talk) 09:19, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

North Cyprus
If we are going to discuss the protests in Northern Cyprus in the article, then should that not be applied to the map? - Marcusmax  ( speak ) 23:41, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
 * no, its mpot directly related, but the concurrent section should be ood. its not MENA either.Lihaas (talk) 01:46, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
 * : http://www.indiavision.com/countries/?c*CYP, http://www.aneki.com/countries_middle_east.php?slide=2, http://middleeast.about.com/od/countriesmz/p/cyprus-country-profile.htm, http://books.google.com.tr/books?id=rCSBuKNeELYC&pg=PA169&dq=middle+east+country+cyprus&hl=tr&ei=cCBjTbaQOsjO4AaFx8joCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CE8Q6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=middle%20east%20country%20cyprus&f=false (page 169), http://books.google.com.tr/books?id=4-xaVGUWVYQC&pg=PR8&dq=middle+east+country+cyprus&hl=tr&ei=cCBjTbaQOsjO4AaFx8joCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CD0Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=%20cyprus&f=false shows Cyprus is a Middle East country. And I have shown that the protest is called Yasmin Revolution by the organizers. Kavas (talk) 02:35, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
 * If no one comments here, I'll go ahead. Kavas (talk) 02:36, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
 * The protests are only in TRNC, there is no protest in South. Please see the deleted section in the article covering protests in TRNC. Kavas (talk) 02:41, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
 * 1. lets wait for support to see which section
 * 2. TRNC is not a country. we dont list entities here. (palestine granted but its declaration of independence was recognised by over a 100 countries and even then its the "territories" Furthermore the protesters did NOT have the TRNC flag but the cypriot flag the article says, which is initself indicaive of something else.Lihaas (talk) 03:05, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

"Date ended" of protests
Currently there are only two countries with listed end dates of their protests, without sources and a highly dubious claim that it's over. We pretty clearly know the dates that the protests started in the countries. Why is that not enough? I don't think we are ever going to accurately show what date a particular protest in a country is over, since they start, stop and start again. It seems like we could remove the date ended category, and when the whole protests in general have subsided, have the end date in the infobox. — Moe   ε  00:15, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

I agree with this.Trakrecord 01:22, 22 February 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Trakrecord (talk • contribs)

2011 Bahrain Grand Prix
Shouldn't the 2011 Bahrain Grand Prix cancellation be added to 21 Feb and Bahrain sections, since it is a major international event that was cancelled? 65.95.14.96 (talk) 00:17, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree, this affects many people in the world and is directly related to the protesting in Bahrain. --Gunshot123 (talk) 00:30, 22 February 2011 (UTC)Gunshot123 (talk)

Update the death toll
The death toll has risen in Libya so we should update the total.--Gunshot123 (talk) 00:33, 22 February 2011 (UTC)Gunshot123 (talk) – HonorTheKing (talk) 01:10, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Iv'e done so, with the refs, it is now over 1,250.

Gaddafi
The naming of the Gaddafi articles are up for discussion, see Talk:Saif al-Islam Muammar Al-Gaddafi and Talk:Muammar al-Gaddafi 65.95.14.96 (talk) 01:18, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

Syria
The Syria section is getting sort of long would it be a good idea to make a new article now? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Trakrecord (talk • contribs) 01:42, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
 * 2011 Syrian protests needs an update.Lihaas (talk) 02:10, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

Eritrea
Eritrea should be added to the map in Green, and the legend updated to reflect that it is an Arabic speaking country. Since Eritrea is related to the Somalis (Djibouti, Somaliland, Somalia) and Red Sea Arabs, it should be highlighted on the map. 65.95.14.96 (talk) 02:22, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

Against - as it is true Eritrea has a minority Arabic-speaking population, it is not a part of MENA - which is the current basis for the map. Only a small group of Eritreans are related to Somalis, the rest are related to the Habesha people in Ethiopia. The UN does not consider Eritrea part of North Africa. --Smart30 (talk) 03:00, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

No' - Mexico has a Arabic speaking population, should they be in the map? NO! This article is about MENA. 99.37.158.123 (talk) 05:27, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

Against - But... apparently it's not MENA bound (Somalia and Mauritania aren't). It's more likely "MENA + Arab League - Comoros" and should stay like that for the time beeing... --Elllit (talk) 08:56, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Gaza Strip
The image map is missing Gaza. The West Bank highlights as a popup, but the Gaza Strip does not. 65.95.14.96 (talk) 02:41, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

Against - there is no reason to add Gaza.--Smart30 (talk) 03:13, 22 February 2011 (UTC)


 * The map includes the West Bank. If you're not going to have Gaza, why is the West Bank there? 65.95.14.96 (talk) 03:33, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
 * because the West Bank has a legal government that is recognized internationally. Gaza does not. Hamas --Smart30 (talk) 04:42, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
 * "The Economist" shows the Gaza Strip along with the West Bank in its map. Both are combined under the heading "Palestinian territories" with two governments shown. 65.93.15.125 (talk) 05:18, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Gaza Strip is part of the Arab World, Middle East, Arabic speaking world, Islamic world, thus should appear on the map. It also has a legally and fairly elected government. Just because no one recognizes the elected government has no bearing on it being there. Aside from which, it is still one of the two pieces of land that is assigned to the Palestinian Authority, which is already partially there, with the West Bank, so the Gaza Strip should be there anyways, if the West Bank is there. If you are counting the recognized government, which is the one from Ramallah, then it should still be on the map. 65.93.15.125 (talk) 05:21, 23 February 2011 (UTC)


 * I think it would be more useful to have the map show de facto governments rather than de jure ones. Although at the scale of the map, it's going to need precise clicking to hit Gaza. Sam Blacketer (talk) 22:28, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

Shoe-Thrower's index
Should the Shoe-Thrower's index be linked to from here, or the template? 65.95.14.96 (talk) 03:11, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I added it to the template. Ucucha 03:54, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

Overview map accesibility
{{legend|#800000|Revolution}} {{legend|#FF0000|Governmental changes}} {{legend|#FF00A0|Major protests}} {{legend|#FFD42A|Minor protests}} {{legend|#008000|Other MENA nations}} {{legend|#B9B9B9|Other nations}}



I don't know if it is my colour perception - but I found it really hard to distinguish the orange from red on the map, I could see on closer study, but could we alter they be made more distinct (I'll do it if you like) wantd to check first? 86.138.62.95 (talk) 03:50, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

I just came here to comment on the same thing. Might I suggest purple?--138.73.75.194 (talk) 04:53, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

When making these types of requests, it's extremely helpful if you suggest colours (as RGB values, see here) for replacement. As a person with the more standard vision, I have a lot of trouble working out acceptable colours (even after using the 'colour deficient vision' filters in GIMP). I've put the current legend at the top of this section, please modify it to work better for your eyes. I'd rather get the map colours right first (second) time, instead of modifying the map first and checking to see if anyone complains about distinguishing problems. gringer (talk) 07:19, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
 * For what it's worth, here's a map that attempts to avoid [colours of confusion] for both red/green and yellow/blue colourblindness. I've got no idea if it works. gringer (talk) 07:27, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Trying magenta/purple for Major protests to see if anyone thinks it works well. gringer (talk) 22:57, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

– HonorTheKing (talk) 00:41, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I like the magenta/purple from above, we should use it instead of orange.

China trying to kill Wikipedia?
I find it alarming that this article is being considered for deleation.

Dozens of human being have been vanished and China is cracking down on net activism.

Why wouldn't that extend to screwing with wikipedia?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Jasmine_Revolution_in_China —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.142.213.167 (talk) 04:08, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

Sections too long
For countries that have their own pages, this page should be providing a brief summary only. Chesdovi (talk) 10:34, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

Background analysis needed
Hello, an analysis is need.

is a great starting source. I used it for Libya, it compare achievement for most arabic countries :
 * "However, Gaddafi's government also achieved some success compared to other Arab countries. Libya's GDP (PPP) per capita (2010: 14,878US$), human development index (2010: 0.755), literacy rate (2009: 86.8%) are higer than neighbor Tunisia and Egypt. Only the corruption perception index (2010: 2.2) being worse."

Several tables are copiable. 140.120.55.63 (talk) 11:36, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

Revolutions
Without going into too much of a political debate, is it really appropriate to call egypt and tunisia 'revolutions'. Perhaps a more neutral term would be appropriate, for example 'Political leader stepped down'. Revolution implies that the protests are and, more importantly should be  over, whereas in egypt workers are still striking and demonstrations are still taking place. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.88.79.75 (talk) 12:49, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
 * They are Revolutions as they have revolutionized the way the people view with their government, and their say in that government. It is radical, and the word 'revolution' conveys such.--Smart30 (talk) 15:03, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
 * It used to state "Government Overthrown" which i feel is more appropriate.--Found5dollar (talk) 18:11, 22 February 2011 (UTC)


 * I find it odd that the article reads they're "being called revolutions" or something like that. From our own article, Revolution:
 * Perhaps most often, the word 'revolution' is employed to denote a change in socio-political institutions.[4][5][6] Jeff Goodwin gives two definitions of a revolution. A broad one, where revolution is
 * "any and all instances in which a state or a political regime is overthrown and thereby transformed by a popular movement in an irregular, extraconstitutional and/or violent fashion"
 * and a narrow one, in which
 * "revolutions entail not only mass mobilization and regime change, but also more or less rapid and fundamental social, economic and/or cultural change, during or soon after the struggle for state power."[7]
 * It seems to me they fit at least the broad definition of a revolution given there. Perhaps too early to fit the more narrow one. Lara  23:42, 22 February 2011 (UTC):
 * Perhaps then it might be appropriate to refer to them as 'Political Revolutions' as to draw the distinction between the first and second definitions

Western Sahara on the map
Western Sahara is orange, 'serious protests', I haven't heard of any protests there and there's no section for that country. I can only think that it's included as part of Morocco, which I think isn't correct, as it's marked as different on the map, so why then regard it as part of Morocco? I would change it but I don't know how to edit the map, so someone else please change it. - User:Dalta


 * Sorry, disregard that, I just saw the bit on Western Sahara. - User:Dalta —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.141.61.64 (talk) 14:38, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Actually you were right. The bit on the Western Sahara is false as it was before the Tunisian protests but it keeps getting added in.TL565 (talk) 15:15, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

HCPUNXKID
For days this user has been trying to claim the protests started in the Western Sahara on October 10 which is arguably unrelated to the current protests. It clearly started in Tunisia on December 18. There is no article about the protest in the Western Sahara and it claims to have started and ended way before the protests in Tunisia. This has been reverted many times but this user keeps adding it back in. Is there really any relation on protests that happened before the Tunisian protests?TL565 (talk) 14:36, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
 * There is not any correlation. This constant re-editing is spam.--Smart30 (talk) 14:59, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Can someone please revert? I have already been warned for edit warring.TL565 (talk) 15:07, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

Western Sahara
Due to edit conflicts between some users, please everyone say thier thoughts about "Western Sahara",
 * Should it be belong in this article?
 * Does thier start of protests is the right start date?. (Tunisia started on Dec 18 - WS on Oct 6.)
 * Should they be belong in the clickable map or have thier own section?. (no legal status or "owner")

I my self against adding Western Sahara, its not any diffrence than Kurdistan, All maps in wikipedia shows Western Sahara in grey with no legal status, and not all protests this days are bcuz Tunisia aswell. – HonorTheKing (talk) 16:27, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Western Sahara should not be on here for reasons noted in the section above.TL565 (talk) 16:53, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Unless there are multiple, reliable sources that state the two are related, then it should not be included. The sources in the article state it started on Dec. 18 with Bouazizi. Lara  23:28, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
 * As WS was a region of conflicts since Spain stopped their governing over the region and the legal state isn't clear. It is hard to tell whether or not protests are initiated or inspired by the main protests. The region itself should be mentioned only if it can be linked to an uprising against the government. Does that include foreign occupation? I wouldn't say so. --Elllit (talk) 09:11, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Western Sahara should be included in the article, only a blind or ignorant on the events couldnt see it.--HCPUNXKID (talk) 12:22, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
 * You are really getting desperate.TL565 (talk) 18:43, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Major v minor protests - definition
The terms "major" and "minor" are quite subjective. So what is the exact definition for this article, for major protests or minor protests? Currently, this sadly seems based on political positions of these countries, for instance protests in Iran Iran, which has long been on the bashing-list of Western media, have immedietly been labelled as "major" although less than 3 thousand people showed up and only 2 people, one of which was from the security forces (according to official sources), were killed. There were no other protests except for what was practically a non-event on the 20th. Meanwhile in pro-American Iraq, they've set fire to governorate buildings, major tv stations, rather than just trashcans (like in Iran) and already 6 people were killed, hundreds being injured, but this is for some reason labelled as "minor." There have also been more casualties in Somalia and Saudi Arabia, than in Iran, and they had similar, small crowds.

I also find it very questionable how the article name was changed from Arab World protests (which basically is the best description of what this is), to "Middle East and North Africa protests" merely to include Iran. At first this was masked by a map including few other countries, than soon they were all removed with excuses and ofcourse there are also protests in Serbia, China, Albania, influenced by these protests, but that is somehow seen as unrelated, because this is supposedly about the Arab World. That did not prevent double-standards from being implemented from Iran. I remember this used to be a neutral source... Kermanshahi (talk) 18:15, 22 February 2011 (UTC)


 * You bring up a good point. Unfortunately, Wikipedia is based off of reliable sources, and American media have been pretty content ignoring the Iraqi protests as of yet (thus contributing to the article's lack of emphasis on Iraq). Of course, I wouldn't mind changing Iraq to orange.


 * To address your other point, I think we need to have a discussion to determine the threshold for major/minor. Before I had thought it was merely self-immolations v. actual protests; but that distinction seems to have changed.


 * It would be prudent to note, however, that current event articles on Wikipedia always lack in balance and neutrality. It is, unfortunately, something that comes with a freely-editable encyclopedia.--haha169 (talk) 19:17, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

Arab world
I believe this still is an Arab world article. Here's an article from a RS calling it Arab revolt:. the name we have now is awkward and kind of too pc. Jmj713 (talk) 20:41, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
 * BBC calls it "Middle East and North Africa unrest" http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12307698 I think that is a pretty good authoritative source until a widely regarded name emerges. Chris Quackenbush (talk) 21:19, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

Revolt in Albania?
The Albanian situation is not related and has not been influenced by the violence in the Middle East and North Africa, the origins of the Albanian protests are deep-rooted in the ongoing Albanian political crisis which consists in the opposition not recognizing the elections and not participating in the country's political life claiming fraud and manipulation in the 2009 Albanian General Elections. Protests and even hunger strikes against the government have been held in the country during this 2 year period of political crisis. So I think it's better to remove Albania from the section 'Similar actions outside the region'. If we were to include all the similar actions we should also mention Italy (protests held by women against Berlusconi) and Russia (protests held by the opposition against Putin)... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ecad93 (talk • contribs) 21:01, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

Naming
Shouldn't the name "Middle East and North Africa protest" be instead "Middle East and North Africa revolution"? After all, what happened Tusinia and Egypt with other countries yet to join them hardly qualify as a protest, but rather a revolution which means overthrowing the government.74.216.37.97 (talk) 01:38, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Only two countries have experienced a revolution so far, with the vast majority still in the throes of protests, some in what would be termed an uprising. But, either way, the majority are still protests, so it wouldn't be correct to title this with revolution unless we wanted the article to only be about Egypt and Tunisia. (Perhaps Libya soon though). Silver  seren C 01:43, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
 * How about "Middle East and North Africa upheaval"? Upheaval refers to sudden strong/violent event in a political or social content

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/upheaval

http://www.answers.com/topic/upheaval

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/upheaval The reason is because the word 'protest' seem like a relatively minor word to describe all these events that are interconnected. But then again, thats my opinion.74.216.37.97 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 03:34, 23 February 2011 (UTC).

I think the word "protests" to describe the entire region's events makes sense. Egypt & Tunisia - Revolution, Libya & Yemen & Bahrain - Uprising, Iran, Iraq[+Ir. Kurdistan], Syria, Saudi Arabia, Oman, Morocco, Algeria, Djibouti and Somalia - still Protests. In my reckoning. --Smart30 (talk) 04:28, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Why does every protest need its own article?
Okay I have noticed that an editor has made an article for every protest that did not have one before, are these articles really needed if it is already summed up in a paragraph on this page? - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 01:45, 23 February 2011 (UTC)


 * This page can be a summery of those main articles, or else this page will be too long for some users. eg, why does every Dinosaur have its own page, we can just use the dinosaur page. It is not going to work. Enlil Ninlil (talk) 02:29, 23 February 2011 (UTC)


 * As long as they are protests that are being described in this article, it is highly likely that there will be more than enough sources to make a more extended article than what we would want to have in summary here. Which countries were you referring to though, by the way? Silver  seren C 02:31, 23 February 2011 (UTC)


 * 2011 Oman protests, 2011 Saudi Arabia protests, 2011 Sudan protests, are my main issue here. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 02:46, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Why wouldnt we have them to provide more indepth info?--Metallurgist (talk) 05:13, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

I support having pages for all of the protests. Irrespective of how potent they were and are. Mauritania and Somalia lack their own pages as of right now. --Smart30 (talk) 05:24, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Death total
"Death(s) Over 1,250 (self-immolations included)" Is that note really necessary anymore?--Metallurgist (talk) 05:15, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Connected protests now in South America?
http://latino.foxnews.com/latino/news/2011/02/18/venezuela-student-hunger-strike-gains-momentum-meets-government/

Looks like some big shot in venezuela is linking the events. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.142.242.150 (talk) 07:09, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

2010-2011 Middle East & North Africa protest - Western Sahara
Ok, as I see that some users denied WITH NO ARGUMENTS the inclusion of the late 2010–2011 Sahrawi protests, I would give several reasons for including them wether as a part of the revolts, or at least as a precedent.
 * 1- Same social & geographic place (North Africa, Arab, Muslim).
 * 2- Same type of protests (protest camp similar to the posterior ones of Egypt, Yemen or Bahrein, but intead of being in the city being in the desert; later attacks to government offices as on Tunisia, Egypt, Lybia).
 * 3- Same type of reinvindications (lack of jobs, demands of democracy and respect for human rights)
 * 4- Same type of organization (the Gdeim Izik camp had groups of protesters that did different services at the camp, one collect the trash of the camp, another one look for security at the camp, another distribute the food, another was responsible for the medicines, etc...just like it was later on Tahrir square -Egypt- and other places)
 * 5- Same time period (the W. Sahara event happened only a month before the Tunisia events)

This are only a few weight reasons for including the W. Sahara events in the article, I hope that the ones that disagree could give reasons and arguments, not erasing without reasons. Im waiting anxiously for it. Also, I think it's at least dubious to made the starting date of the revolts the self-immolation of Mohamed Bouazizi, it looks more like a well-looking media story for explaining the current events. As another user had stated, in NOVEMBER there was already a big Tunisian movement making campaign for removal of Ben Ali government, respect for human rights, democracy, etc...but as I said, it's more partical, tragic & epic, to make the Buazizi immolation as the starting date.--HCPUNXKID (talk) 13:03, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Algeria in red?
Why is Algeria in red? Lifting of a state of emergency doesn't seem to be government change. The same people are in power, no? ZeLonewolf (talk) 13:25, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Agreed - ArnoldPlaton (talk) 14:22, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Agreed - change it back to Orange.--Smart30 (talk) 14:42, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I've changed Algeria back to major protests. There has also been some back-and-forth over whether Morocco should be considered major or minor (see File:2010-2011 Middle East and North Africa protests.svg). I'm leaning to minor, since events there seem to have been nothing like the scale of those in Yemen or Bahrain. Ucucha 14:50, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Considering the protests in Morocco have for the most part completely stopped, I agree with the minor-protests designation. I think the change to major was done in anticipation for something much greater.--Smart30 (talk) 15:10, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Also, Iraq should be colored in orange. --78.0.246.19 (talk) 17:00, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Okay, so government changes refers to the people in government, rather than the policies. Regarding the designation for Morocco, Iraq, and especially Western Sahara, could someone please update the table to match the picture &mdash; they should agree with each other, and I don't have enough knowledge about the situations to do the table updates properly. FWIW, I think both table and image should represent the historical severity of protests rather than the current state of protests, because people reading this in 2012 will probably be interested in that rather than seeing green/maroon everywhere. The table currently says both Morocco and Iraq had major protests, which doesn't agree with the picture. Also Western Sahara doesn't appear at all in the table, yet comments seem to suggest that there have been relevant protests in the region. gringer (talk) 20:09, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Mauritania and Senegal
Mauritania is on the map but Senegal is not. Both countries have had a single instance of self-immolation (which in my opinion, does not alone rise to the level of even a minor protest). I think we should either have both countries on the map, or neither. Since we are including a few Horn of Africa countries such as Somalia and Djibouti, it's OK to also have some borderline west Africa as well in terms of geography. My vote is to remove Mauritania unless a legitimate protest (at least a few hundred people?) occurs. ZeLonewolf (talk) 13:34, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

For - I agree it is problematic to include Mauritania as it does not meet our criteria for inclusion. It is not a part of North Africa, and it is not a Middle-eastern country, it's not on MENA. --Smart30 (talk) 14:41, 23 February 2011 (UTC)


 * For what it's worth, Mauritania is probably included because it's an Arab League member, like Djibouti and Somalia but unlike Senegal. Ucucha 14:43, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Right - but unlike Djibouti, Mauritania is not a part of MENA. Somalia's addition was indeed as a result of being arab-league, however that country is too volatile not to have it on the page.--Smart30 (talk) 15:12, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

For - Let's set the focus of the article on MENA (as title suggests). There is plenty of room in the "related protests" section. If protests spread the title should change to include all Africa, for instance. --Elllit (talk) 15:46, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Western Sahara
Whether it's considered to be part of Morocco, or an independent territory, it should be in yellow, not in green, as there have been protests both in it, and in Morocco. BrickBreak (talk) 16:54, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
 * It's not present in the summary table, which is why I changed it on the map. People more knowledgeable than me have (I think) updated the map to add in Western Sahara. gringer (talk) 20:11, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Similar actions outside the region moved
I noticed that all the material in this section was moved to 2010-2011 Worldwide protests an article up for AfD that currently has almsot a 100% delete consensus to it. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 17:12, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Somebody just put a reference to Wisconsin. Will remove.Kanzler31 (talk) 20:02, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Preventative Actions - Palestine
Can we just move Palestine to the MENA section. If the 'preventative actions' are significant, then they fit fine there with properly reserved phrasing, and if not, they are probably too minor or speculative to be in the article. Any objections to merging this lonely section? Ocaasi (talk) 21:51, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
 * As time goes on, these less notable tidbits are all very nice, but not necessarily warranted here. All countries in the region have had repercussions in some way or another, but remember that this page is specifically about protets, and I am not sure if actions of the PA would fit anywhere, as there were no significant anti-government protests in the PA. Chesdovi (talk) 00:42, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

Iraq
They should be changed to orange. There are already deaths and mass protesters in the streets. Is that minor? 99.37.158.123 (talk) 00:03, 23 February 2011 (UTC)


 * I don't agree ... You cant make Iraq "major protests" like there is in Iran, Algeria, Bahrain, Yemen and compare it to Iraq. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.113.193.155 (talk) 02:49, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I mean sure there is country wide protests ... but at the most there are 10 000 protestors at one place at a time all protesting different things. In Iran, Bahrain, Yemen, Algeria etc. there are 10s of thousands if not 100s of thousands in the street united in one goal (ousting current ruler) once again I would like to say that Iraq should not be orange because you cant compare it to other "major" protest states.

Libya should be shown red
The home minister and justice minister have resigned, that's a governmental change. --polmas (talk) 11:31, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

http://www.megamedianews.in/index.php/19772/home-minister-younis-of-libya-resigns/

Against - Leave it orange til the Revolution is complete. Gov change should be reserved for countries where Revolution is unlikely because of government changes. (Algeria-Jordan-West Bank)--Smart30 (talk) 12:30, 23 February 2011 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure whether red is a good idea, but I do think we should consider giving Libya some other colour. The situation there is very much unlike that in other "major protests" countries: the protesters have actually taken over half of the country and government officials are joining the revolution in droves. Ucucha 14:54, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Perhaps we could designate it 'Popular Uprising'. Much better than "major protests".--Smart30 (talk) 15:14, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

My two cents- Since the government is no longer in control of a vast majority of the country leaving the opposition in control the colour should be changed to reflect revolution. They are past the stage of major protests. I may be wrong but I think the governmental change category is reserved for non-violent change from the top. --Wilson (talk) 17:25, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree with Wilson on this one. A revolution doesn't necessarily have to result in the overthrow of a head-of-state. --haha169 (talk) 00:50, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Against - We should save Revolution for complete victories rather than subjective opinions of what qualifies as a revolt. I stick strongly with my prior proposal for a new color - Popular Uprising.--Smart30 (talk) 07:00, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
 * How about pink or ochre? And it would be for general insurrection 65.93.15.125 (talk) 13:17, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

Table of contents
What to do about the large amount of white space created by the TOC and the overview map? It looks horrible and breaks up the article. I tried {TOC left} and such but to no avail. Jmj713 (talk) 18:44, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I tried something just now as far as the TOC and the map. Looks okay but could be better. Any suggestions? Jmj713 (talk) 21:59, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

2000 DEAD?
I am not sure about this info because all the cited sources have another number for the death toll. The highest one that was cited was +1000 so you might want to change it to that.--Gunshot123 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 21:26, 23 February 2011 (UTC).
 * The ref supporting the 2,000 figure was the BBC quoting a French doctor. Chesdovi (talk) 00:44, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
 * France's top human rights official tells Reuters that up to 2,000 people could have died in the revolt against Col Gaddafi's regime. (BBC) Chesdovi (talk) 16:59, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

Getting too long
It seems this particular article and the discussion forum is getting longer and longer every day. Why don't we split the article into two main articles? 'Middle East 2011 protest' and the 'North Africa 2011 protest'? We have no idea whether or not all these protests will wind down soon or is just the beginning of something yet to come. If the latter is true, this single article cannot possible keep all general information happening in both Middle East and Northern Africa that is constantly coming to light. While I do understand there are multiple articles for multiple countries involve in this conflict, this particular article is getting quite large.74.216.0.53 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 23:14, 23 February 2011 (UTC).

Of course it's getting too long!!!! I tried to cut it in two, but they refused. They first said, "Arab League only!" Then they added Iran an some in Africa, and took Turkey and Northern Cyprus out. Grrrr.Ericl (talk) 23:21, 23 February 2011 (UTC)


 * The problem is are the protests all connected? I have no problem with an article for protsts that were a result of something else that happened but protsts like in Greece or the United States for example have nothing to do or was caused by what went on where this all started. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 23:24, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

A better solution is to pare down a lot of the detail, which can be expounded upon at each country's own protest article. What we need here is the overall information and the main details, as well as an origins section. Jmj713 (talk) 00:00, 24 February 2011 (UTC)


 * See what I did to Libya protests. It was far too long and a duplication of its own page. Protests with there own page need only be summed up here briefly. Chesdovi (talk) 00:35, 24 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Current event articles always become like this. 2008 Sichuan earthquake must have been three times as long as it was in 2008 as it was now. Trimming usually comes after important things are sorted from the non-important. --haha169 (talk) 00:53, 24 February 2011 (UTC)


 * At knowledgekid87: its pretty hard not to see that all these protests, revolution and uprising are all connected. Especially when they all span within the same month, same continent, same factors (non-democratic countries), and each protest happen right after another (literally moments after each occurred). I fail to see how all this cannot be connected. Do we need evidence to show the events are interconnected or is inductive reasoning is enough?74.216.0.53 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 03:38, 24 February 2011 (UTC).

100th talk page section here (PLEASE ARCHIVE SOME OF THE STUFF HERE)
Please can someone change the stats of MiszaBot I some of this needs to be archived as this talk page is now over 200,000 bytes. I asm having trouble typing here it loads so slow. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 23:27, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Done. – Muboshgu (talk) 23:29, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Thank you =), my computer and internet connection thanks you too. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 23:32, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Don't thank me, thank MiszaBot :P – Muboshgu (talk) 02:35, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't think MiszaBot is doing its job --haha169 (talk) 18:27, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

Qatar
Qatar Day of Wreath sheduled Su 27 feb 2011 according to http://kaddafi.ru Ted68 (talk) 02:37, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
 * That would appear to be the only source asserting that Qatar is planning mass protests akin to that of other Arab countries. In the event that something develops and more information becomes available, I would have no qualms about adding something regarding Qatar to the article. For the time being, there have been no incidents or protests in the Gulf country.  Master&amp;  Expert  ( Talk ) 03:38, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
 * There's this article about a protest in Doha: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/anne-peterson/egyptian-protests-extend-_b_815311.html#s231782&title=Egyptian_Protest_in but it was in support of the Egyptian protests, not an anti-government one. - Dalta (talk) 16:09, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

TL565
This user had been erasing editions that include the 2010 Western Sahara events as part of the Arab protests, never giving any reason or argument. I had expressed my point of view and arguments on == 2010-2011 Middle East & North Africa protest - Western Sahara ==, trying to discuss the issue, but this prepotent user denies any reason, giving the pathetic excuse that the events started on Dec. 18, and thats a sacred date that can't be changed. I'm not gonna accept an imposition without giving explanations, I know a little about people in Wikipedia that made something like lobbies to impose their views in some articles, making them unchangeable. Regards.--HCPUNXKID (talk) 12:20, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
 * You are beyond hopeless! You have been continuously been given the explanation that the current protests started in Tunisia by Mohamed Bouazizi self-immolation and that pre-Tunisia protests do not go on the article but you foolishly ignore it. Name one other user who has agreed with you. You need to be reported for constantly spamming the article with your edits.TL565 (talk) 14:01, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
 * In the future either one of you should just poll a consensus here, see below... - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 14:10, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Sorry but this guy isn't going to wait for a consensus. He will keep adding wrong info until he is blocked.TL565 (talk) 14:16, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
 * If that is the case so be it, I want other editors to weigh in on the matter though as I have just seen this so far between you two although Western Sahara is mentioned above briefly. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 14:19, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

Libya and Jordan same color?
..that's silly. There should be another color, like black, for a high-casualty uprising--93.137.26.108 (talk) 14:55, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

I've decided to make a massive change
There's an article called 2010-2011 Worldwide protests and since this article here is getting to unwieldly, I figured that splitting it up into "arab" and "non-arab" articles would be a good idea. Ericl (talk) 15:52, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Massively Against - That article will be deleted soon. It's unnecessary and completely over-stating the Protests. All of the aforementioned edits should be reversed.--Smart30 (talk) 15:58, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
 * There does not need to be list on this page of other countries. If the protests outside MENA are notable enough, they can have their own pages and all be mentioned in short paragraph here. Chesdovi (talk) 16:03, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
 * AGAINST The Afd on that page has almost a 100% delete consensus, editors DO NOT WANT IT for a number of reasons. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 17:17, 23 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Against. In principle, i would be in favour of a WP:SPLIT, but shifting the material to an article that is likely to be deleted in about 6 days' time (29 February) is not a split; it is a de facto removal of the content. A split would require consensus that the material is coherent enough and does not constitute WP:SYNTH. A straight-out removal of the material from this article would need to be proposed properly and wait for consensus. Boud (talk) 20:23, 23 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Comment I have gone ahead and readded plus changed the section title for protests that were a result or related to the middle eastern ones. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 20:33, 23 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Could not oppose more strongly The article was renamed last week to end the "Arab vs. non-Arab" thing. I'm glad you sought consensus before making that massive change you decided on. – Muboshgu (talk) 02:34, 24 February 2011 (UTC)


 * If such protests occur throughout the world to the same degree as they are in the Arab World, I would support creating a general article entitled "Revolutions of 2011" (similar to the article "Revolutions of 1989"). At this time, the conflict is still largely isolated to the Arab World with significant (though relatively minor) incidents in China, Iran, Serbia, and Albania. I would not support such a name change at this time.  Master&amp;  Expert ( Talk ) 03:42, 24 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Oppose that article is a new article on the same subject of an older article 2010–2011 anti-government protests, so should have been speedily deleted as a dupe. 65.93.15.125 (talk) 05:25, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

MENA?
This whole MENA thing has a narrow scope, firstly there is no "standardized definition" of what countries are considered part of MENA; so putting "other MENA nations" on a map is probably not a very encyclopedic way of presenting something. It seems that just highlighting any nation in Northern Africa or the traditional Middle East and far Western Asia that is having protests makes more sense. - Marcusmax  ( speak ) 22:37, 23 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Agree (as I noted in a section above). Turkey and Cyprus are part of the Middle East, and Mauritania, Djibouti, and Somalia are not part of North Africa.  If we drop the green color, then we'll have the freedom to include nations that are arguably part of this geographically-related protest.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by ZeLonewolf (talk • contribs) 23:03, 23 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Disagree MENA is as comprehensive a geographic area as we're going to get.  kencf0618 (talk) 00:50, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
 * So we just ignore any other country in the region because it is not part of this "MENA", to conventionally delimit an area for no apparent reason goes against common knowledge. In addition "MENA" can't be "comprehensive" if there is not "standardized definition" of what MENA really is. Take Cyprus for example, it is considered part of the traditional Middle East, but not MENA - considering there have been some hefty protests in the Muslim part of Cyprus, it would be nice to include that on the map but since we only allow MENA that can't happen. I don't get why we can't just apply common sense to this, instead of all these political limitations. - Marcusmax  ( speak ) 01:28, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Just so. MENA is a standard category used in business and academic literature, and on Wikipedia, citations are destiny, not "political limitations," savvy? kencf0618 (talk) 01:05, 25 February 2011 (UTC)
 * From our own article, "MENA has no standardized definition; certain organizations define the region as making up different territories."; by the way that is cited in the article. Then all you have to do is look at other academic sources like this this book and you will see it lists different countries as part of MENA like Turkey and Afghanistan; and Djibouti and Somalia aren't even included. The fact is, MENA has no standard definition. - Marcusmax  ( speak ) 04:02, 25 February 2011 (UTC)
 * To continue on with my preceding comment, this political paper does not include Somalia or Djibouti but our definition does. And this book clearly states, "the Middle East & North Africa (MENA) region includes members of the Arab League, with the exception of Mauritania, Comoros and Djibouti plus Iran, Israel and Turkey. Hello, we have those in the maps now...clearly there is no standard definition of MENA, academia is making conflicting statements. - Marcusmax  ( speak ) 04:41, 25 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Agree- We should find a consensus how far this specific article should cover states (as it seems we don't want to cover all the world). MENA, as pointed out, is not a commonly defined region. Either we define it ourselves or aggregate defined regions, for instance "Western Asia + North Africa", which seem to be more acknowledged regions and would cover all current countries on the map minus Somalia plus a few additional. It's hard to satisfy everyone on this topic... --Elllit (talk) 08:43, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

WESTERN SAHARA status
Suggestion to add Western Sahara under "Minor protests" in the Map, as protests have taken place in that region and are ongoing as stated by the article itself. Currently Western Sahara is Labeled as unaffected (ButJ (talk) 10:15, 25 February 2011 (UTC))
 * I repeat, it's non-sense to add a part & continuation of the 2010–2011 Sahrawi protests while avoiding the major part of the protest with the argument of the date. It has no logic.--HCPUNXKID (talk) 11:56, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

Protests in Croatia
There are also ongoing Tunisia/Egypt-inspired protests in Croatia. It started on 22 February with protest in Zagreb (capital of Croatia) and continued today (24 February) at 18:00 (local time) with protests in some other mayor cities as well. Unfortunately, sources in English cannot be found yet, only in Croatian.

Some sources in croatian:, , ,. --78.0.228.24 (talk) 17:34, 24 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Finally some sources in English, but only about the protest in 22 February:, . Also, there are reports of police officers beating some of the protesters in Zagreb. --78.0.228.24 (talk) 18:23, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
 * If a RS source compares it then add it to the requisite section(Lihaas (talk) 02:26, 25 February 2011 (UTC)).

Quality of this Article ?
I'm really concerned about the Quality and the frequent changes that keep affecting this article? Also the map just makes no sense anymore! (ButJ (talk) 08:15, 25 February 2011 (UTC))
 * I think you should be more specific. Of course there are frequent changes, because there are frequent changes in the states involved. As for the map: It shows the current state, what doesn't make sense? --Elllit (talk) 08:28, 25 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Frequent changes are to be expected, as the article even says.--Smart30 (talk) 09:22, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

I agree, too. The Libyan uprising article has too many grammar errors to forgive :D —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.108.89.122 (talk) 12:31, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

Updating article(s)
I've seen protests here in Amman and am watching massive protests in Iraq on Al Jazeera. We should update this article so it catches up with today's changes.


 * Some source material: http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2011/02/2011225102748578436.html - ArnoldPlaton (talk) 15:03, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

Title
I suggest the title be changed to "MENA Protests" for two reasons: title is too long and we do not know when this protests will end. If they extend to other regions, it will be another trend. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hassan hsn (talk • contribs) 12:52, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

Jordan
I heard from a trusted source that protests are being held in the Jordanian capital. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mkewan (talk • contribs) 16:00, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

Yes. I'm from there. I've seen the protests. EDIT: Source from Aljazeera: http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth/opinion/2011/02/2011220105658153939.html (94.249.0.66 (talk) 16:49, 25 February 2011 (UTC))

Inconsistent labelling of major and minor protests
There is very inconsistent labelling of major and minor protests. According to the general standard that is set, Morocco should be described as seeing major protests and in orange on the map. Conversely, Kuwait has not had any major protests, by the commonly applied standards of the term in the article, so far and should be in yellow.

Nwe (talk) 17:08, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

Iraq
To date, In Iraq are now major protest. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.244.243.106 (talk) 17:52, 25 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Following today's events, I completely agree:, , . Rangoon11 (talk) 18:44, 25 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Its been orange on the map for a while already. --haha169 (talk) 23:21, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

Rename to 2010–2011 Middle East and North Africa unrest
Propose Rename to 2010–2011 Middle East and North Africa unrest. Eeven (talk) 19:13, 23 February 2011 (UTC)


 * against. "Unrest" sounds to me like a wiktionary:euphemism, possibly also a WP:WEASEL word. It's true that the word is popular in WP:RS for this type of topic, but we're supposed to get the information from those sources, not their euphemisms. Mainstream media may choose that organised-group-of-people-X are freedom fighters while organised-group-of-people-Y are terrorists, but they usually they give more concrete details. In that case we can use the information (group X or Y killed 12 people of group Y or X, respectively) and avoid using the labels. Readers can interpret the events and apply the labels they wish in their minds. If the labels are really needed in an article, then they can be quoted, but 2010–2011 Middle East and North Africa "unrest" seems like a poor replacement for 2010–2011 Middle East and North Africa protests. There are many possible alternative names, finding one that is simpler and more NPOV and RS'd and applies to all the places seems to me difficult, at least for the moment. Boud (talk) 20:07, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
 * It's not a euphemism - it's a catch-all term which includes protests and revolutions and uprisings, etc. The events so far have included more than just protests which is why the rename is proposed. Eeven (talk) 09:43, 24 February 2011 (UTC)


 * in favor. This is the title that CNN is currently using to categorize these events. ZeLonewolf (talk) 01:36, 25 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Symbol oppose vote.svg Oppose because as it has been stated above 'unrest' sounds euphamistic and there are better ways in English of describing these events. But instead of simply saying you're wrong, I offer instead a different title; Arab Spring. A few news sources have used this term to describe the events unfolding right now, , but admittedly there have been too few to warrant a name change thus far for it. English language media should be monitored for the use of this term though. Sixer Fixer (talk) 14:26, 26 February 2011 (UTC)