Talk:Arab citizens of Israel/Archive 8

Requested move 27 October 2021

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 

The result of the move request was: Not Moved - In numerical terms the !voting is roughly even. The main argument in favour of moving was WP:COMMONNAME. The main argument against was accuracy/precision, particularly as not all Arab citizens of Israel are of Palestinian origin. It is notable that this latter argument caused one of the support voters to change their !vote and as such was particularly persuasive. It also appears to highlight a weakness in the WP:COMMONNAME argument as it is not clear whether the term "Palestinian citizens of Israel" was being used even for those of non-Palestinian origin and whether it really was being used co-extensively with the topic of this article, or if it instead was being used only for those of Palestinian origin.

A455bcd9 argued convincingly that the proposed rename would require a re-factoring of the article. Selfstudier's support vote was also predicated on a re-factoring of the article. However, there was no consensus for such a change to the article topic in this discussion. Other possible names were discussed but none were endorsed, and some of the support !votes were predicted on use of such alternative titles. This all points to weaknesses in the move argument versus the oppose one. The need to refactor the article for this new title does point to a potential gap for a new article limited specifically to Arab citizens who identify as Palestinian, IF reliable sources can be found for such an article showing it to be a distinct topic to that covered here. I see work has already begun on looking at this which seems a positive move and a good potential outcome for this discussion.

On balance I found a narrow consensus against moving to the proposed title here, rather than just no consensus to move, but the outcome is the same either way. A further re-list to get a clearer consensus at this point was obviously not needed given the way that discussion here has slowed to a crawl. (non-admin closure) FOARP (talk) 12:29, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

Arab citizens of Israel → Palestinian citizens of Israel – The usage of "Arab citizen of Israel", in addition to being rejected by a majority of the population, also is getting less use in reliable sources. For several years now the surveys have shown that the Arabs within Israel reject disassociating their Palestinian identity from their citizenship. And reliable sources have followed. See for example: *Washington Post: In just the past month, Palestinian citizens of Israel — also known as Israeli Arabs ... But surveys show that the people that term is meant to describe favor “Palestinian citizens of Israel,” an identity they say honors both their roots in historic Palestine and their connection to relatives in the West Bank, Gaza and the diaspora. *Foreign Policy:Arab-Israeli—the official media and Israeli government term for the 20 percent of Israel’s almost 9 million citizens who are Arab-Palestinian—is increasingly unpopular among the people it’s meant to describe. Only 16 percent of this population wants to be called “Israeli Arab,” according to a 2017 survey by the University of Haifa professor Sammy Smooha provided to Foreign Policy. “The largest now and the most growing identity is a hybrid identity, which is ‘Palestinian in Israel’” or a similar combination, Smooha said. *Columbia Journalism Review: Palestinian citizens of Israel—also called Israeli-Arabs, Palestinians in Israel, ’48 Arabs, or Palestinian Arabs—make up about 20 percent of Israel’s 9 million citizens. Unlike other Palestinians living in the occupied West Bank, Gaza Strip, and east Jerusalem, this group of Palestinians remained in Israel after its founding in 1948 and has Israeli citizenship. If we are using a descriptive title then per WP:NDESC that title should be neutral, and using a title the majority of the people discussed reject is decidedly non-neutral. Nableezy 15:21, 27 October 2021 (UTC) — Relisting. &#8211; MJL &thinsp;‐Talk‐☖ 17:35, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Support for "Palestinian Arabs in Israel". Also fine with "Palestinian Arab citizens of Israel".A455bcd9 (talk) 18:51, 27 October 2021 (UTC) => 1st, "Palestinians in Israel", 2nd, "Palestinian Arabs in Israel", 3rd, "Palestinian citizens of Israel" A455bcd9 (talk) 08:33, 28 October 2021 (UTC) => Removing my vote as ~12% of Arabs in Israel don't consider themselves Palestinian at all (Smooha 2019, esp. Druze). So the current title is the best, unless the article is split to exclude Druze, in that case I would support the name change. A455bcd9 (talk) 18:02, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Support for Palestinian citizens of Israel or Palestinian Arab citizens of Israel or Palestinian Arabs in Israel or Palestinians in Israel, any of those combinations is fine with me.  nableezy  - 19:01, 27 October 2021 (UTC) (nom, just making clear support any of the possible permutations here)
 * Support for "Palestinian citizens of Israel", "Palestinian Arabs in Israel" is also acceptable, Huldra (talk) 20:26, 27 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Support 1st, "Palestinians in Israel", 2nd, "Palestinian citizens of Israel", 3rd, "Palestinian Arabs in Israel", Selfstudier (talk) 21:29, 27 October 2021 (UTC) Clarification My vote assumes that the article will only cover those that identify as Palestinians.Selfstudier (talk) 18:46, 31 October 2021 (UTC) Edit Swapping 2nd and 3rd.Selfstudier (talk) 14:07, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Oppose Clear NPOV violation; not all Arabs identify as Palestinians; the current title is a neutral. Number   5  7  09:08, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Support "Palestinian citizens of Israel" or "Palestinian Arab citizens of Israel". I would oppose any proposal which omits the word "Palestinian". RolandR (talk) 10:33, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Support any of the options in the proposal. Main preference "Palestinian citizens of Israel". --NSH001 (talk) 20:25, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
 * A full Support - Obviously! Palestinian or Palestinian Arab both work. GizzyCatBella  🍁  00:04, 30 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Support move to "Palestinians in Israel". Super   Ψ   Dro  16:17, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Here it's claimed that the majority preferred variations of "Arab citizens of Israel." Also I concur with Number57's argument, for example the Druze neither self-identify nor are described as Palestinians in scholarly literature. Alaexis¿question? 07:14, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Oppose per number 57 and Alaexis the term is not defining of all Arabs and not all Arabs of Palestinian origin consider themselves Palestinian. Idan (username is Zvikorn) (talk) 14:18, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Oppose Its not WP:COMMONNAME even they NYT titles use Israel Arabs terms. What Zvirkon correct it doesn't meet WP:NDESK either as many minorities don't consider them self Palestinians --Shrike (talk) 20:59, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Support as "Palestinians in Israel" is the primary topic that the article is talking about. We already have articles such as Druze in Israel and Lebanese in Israel, covering the individual Arabic-speaking groups who usually do not consider themselves Palestinian; this article is their counterpart. The "Arab citizens of Israel" is a confusing label because Arab in this context means "Arabic-speaking" not "from Arabia", and yet it is intended to exclude the Arab Jews which ethnically make up about half of Israel's Jewish population. Per Arabic language in Israel, a reasonable number of the older Jewish Israeli population from the MENA region still speak their original native language of Arabic. Onceinawhile (talk) 07:23, 4 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Oppose Mostly per Number 57 as the title is the most neutral. Also per Alaexis and Shrike. I don't think including the word "citizens" is in line with other article titles, and probably needs to be removed from this one too. --Spekkios (talk) 00:38, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Oppose per number 57 and Zvikorn. This denomination would exclude Druze and all others Arabs who don't identify as Palestinian. Arab is more comprehensive (and includes Palestinian), hence does not exclude anyone.Eccekevin (talk) 23:34, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Oppose as the proposed title excludes the many Arab citizens of Israel who self-identify as Arab but not Palestinian Arabs. In fact about a quarter of Israeli minorities (23%) define themselves primarily as "Israeli" and 51% define their identity as "Israeli-Arab", based on the survey by Tel Aviv University "Pluralism Index for 2020". See WP:POVTITLE which says that neutral terms are generally preferable.Marokwitz (talk) 12:35, 8 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Oppose There are multiple sources that show that most of Israeli Arabs do not identify themselves as Palestinians, so it is not our place to force this ethnic identity on them. Current title is factual and descriptive: they are Arabs and they are citzens of Israel. Using the proposed title would be less accurate: some of them consider themself Palestinians, some don't. &#8220;WarKosign&#8221; 18:28, 8 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Be helpful to note that the above two editors were canvassed here by an editor not allowed to participate in the move request (Here).  nableezy  - 18:57, 8 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Even if it's true, it is not a sufficient reason to dismiss a !vote by a fellow editor. &#8220;WarKosign&#8221; 19:41, 8 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Even if it's true. Lol.  nableezy  - 19:44, 8 November 2021 (UTC)
 * some of them consider themself Palestinians, some don't. How many is "some"? Most RS nowadays seem to think "some" is really "most" and I agree with them (identify as, not consider themselves, not the same thing).Selfstudier (talk) 19:50, 8 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I was not notified or contacted by anyone on wiki or off wiki in order to !vote here. I don't know "ErickStern17" and never heard of him until now. You are just trying to unfairly discredit my opinion. Not nice Nableezy. Please read POV railroad which describes exactly what you are doing. Marokwitz (talk) 21:21, 8 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Yeah you just showed up shortly after the vote-stacking request at WT:ISRAEL. Silly me.  nableezy  - 22:06, 8 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I've never been a member of WT:ISRAEL and it's not on my follow list. So keep your opinions to yourself. Thank you. Marokwitz (talk) 22:30, 8 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Whatever you say, it is however crystal clear that WarKosign very much was canvassed here.  nableezy  - 22:56, 8 November 2021 (UTC)
 * You are making personal remarks, which is uncivil behaviour, in violation of WP code of conduct. Unless you can prove your claims, kindly strike your comments and keep your speculations to yourself. &#8220;WarKosign&#8221; 22:43, 9 November 2021 (UTC)
 * No, I am not making uncivil comments. You were canvassed here, and here is the proof. That is somebody made a non-neutral appeal to a partisan audience (you later appealed to that same audience), you answered, and then came to the talk page to make your very first edits ever here (and have never edited the article). And you dont even deny it. You say "even if it's true".  nableezy  - 23:23, 9 November 2021 (UTC)


 * Oppose Not all (non-Jewish) Arabic-speaking people in Israel identify as Palestinians. The common name to describe Israeli citizens who speak Arabic is "Arab Israeli" or "Israeli Arab". Sources that do use "Palestinian" to describe Israeli-Arabs are usually pro-Palestinian. You can't split Druze and Bedouins from the rest of the Arabs in Israel. It would be very weird to say that "1,000 Palestinians have volunteered to serve in the IDF last year". How would we describe the United Arab List? As a Palestinian party? Let alone NPOV, this mostly causes confusion, cause now you are going to have to change every "Arab" person in Israel to "Palestinian". Walid Badir probably identifies as Palestinian, but he never expressed that publically. He did however describe himself as an "Arab". Can we describe him as a "Palestinian Israeli footballer who played on the Israeli National Team" if he have never publically identified as "Palestinian" but identified as "Arab" countless times? You can't change the title of this article and keep the rest of the article concerning Israeli-Arab politicians, judges, activists, artists, celebrities, and whatever as "Arab". It'll cause confusion, cause every time you will click on "Arab-Israeli" it will lead you to "Palestinian Citizens of Israel", and that's a harsh statement that we need to be careful before making. I mean, Nasrin Kadri is an Arab who converted to Judaism, is it fair to describe her as a "Palestinian citizen of Israel"? Also, the stated identification of Israeli-Arabs as Palestinians is a growing phenomenon. It may be correct today more than ever, but where is the line crossed? There was a time in which fewer Arabs identified as Palestinians, but we will now need to change all the descriptions of deceased Israeli-Arabs to "Palestinian citizen of Israel". What if they have never identified as Palestinian? And what about the Druze? Are we simply going to ignore them? Label all as Palestinians but when it comes to Druze label them simply as Druze? Or we are going to call them "Palestinians" despite the majority of the Druze population doesn't identify as Palestinian. This move is really fundamental and has a very deep meaning. It will create more ambiguity than clarity. There's no problem in saying in the lead section of this article that Israel has 2 million Arabic-speaking citizens, most of which (especially Muslims) identify as Palestinians. No one will get confused. "Arab Citizens of Israel" is merely a technical term and it should keep that way.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 20:18, 8 November 2021 (UTC)
 * No, we just would cover Israeli Druze in oh I dont know the article Israeli Druze. Sources that do use Palestinian are pro-Palestinian???? The Washington Post is pro-Palestinian??? Cmon, thats just so blatantly made up it doesnt even merit a response.  nableezy  - 20:31, 8 November 2021 (UTC)
 * But Druze are already covered in this article. Are you going to remove them from this article? Is this article about a people or about an identitiy? And I said "usually", of course not all sources that use "Palestinian Israelis" are pro-Palestinian. You replied to the obvious but ignored the rest. So please, I am no sockpuppet or canvassed user, don't discredit my answer as well.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 20:42, 8 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes, I would remove Druze from the article. Why exactly should there be no article on the Palestinian population? Your usually is likewise based on absolutely nothing. Just thrown out there as if it were true without any evidence at all. When it is not. Given the evidence cited. Not just thrown out as though my own unsourced views should be accepted as though they were fact.  nableezy  - 22:06, 8 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Sources that do use "Palestinian" to describe Israeli-Arabs are usually pro-Palestinian. Pretty sure this has an inverse.Selfstudier (talk) 22:25, 8 November 2021 (UTC)


 * Oppose per Number57 and others above. The current title encompasses all of the Arab citizens of Israel, which is what this article is about. Not all of them identify as Palestinian. &mdash; Amakuru (talk) 22:23, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

Discussion

 * Hi,
 * According to Smooha 2019: "The three of the nine most attractive identities to the Arabs are: Palestinian Arabs in Israel – 27.1%, Israeli Arabs – 14.9% and Palestinian Arabs – 12.8%" and "a majority of 65.9% of the Arabs in 2019 (down from 71.8% in 2017) said that “the identity of ‘Palestinian Arab in Israel’ is appropriate to most Arabs in Israel”" Also, 72.8% of people surveyed defined themselves with a term including "Arab": "Arab" (10%), "Israeli Arab" (14.9%), "Arab in Israel" (8%), "Palestinian Arab" (12.8%), "Palestinian Arab in Israel" (27.1%).
 * So I think renaming to "Palestinian Arabs in Israel" would make more sense at it is the most common and most accepted denomination among the population considered (cf. also The Future Vision of the Palestinian Arabs in Israel) and it includes "Palestinian" & "Arab" & "Israel". (Also "Palestinian citizens" may refer to holders of a Palestinian Authority passport so I find "Palestinian citizens of Israel" a bit confusing). A455bcd9 (talk) 15:41, 27 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Also, most articles about an ethnic group in a given country are entitled: "[People] in [Country]". For instance: Armenians in Israel, Circassians in Israel, Palestinians in Syria, Palestinians in Iraq, Arabs in France, Arabs in Turkey. So "Palestinian Arabs in Israel" follows this same pattern / implicit convention. A455bcd9 (talk) 15:48, 27 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Fine with Palestinian Arab citizens of Israel as well.  nableezy  - 15:54, 27 October 2021 (UTC)
 * I'm okay with "Palestinian Arab citizens of Israel" but why is it important to add "citizens" in the title? Are there Arabs in Israel who do not hold Israeli citizenship and that we want to exclude from this article? A455bcd9 (talk) 16:14, 27 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Within Israel proper no, I guess I am fine with Palestinian Arabs in Israel or Palestinians in Israel as well.  nableezy  - 16:28, 27 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Support for "Palestinian Arabs in Israel". Also fine with "Palestinian Arab citizens of Israel". By the way, the current "Arab citizens of Israel" is problematic because Lebanese in Israel may be considered Arabs (although most of them don't consider themselves Arabs) but they're definitely not Palestinian. A455bcd9 (talk) 17:04, 27 October 2021 (UTC)
 * I would prefer the formulation "Palestinian citizens of Israel" or "Palestinian Arab citizens of Israel", since the article is principally about the discriminatory treatment of such citizens vis-a-vis Jewish citizens of the state. "Palestinians of '48" would also be acceptable, but might need too much explanation. RolandR (talk) 17:22, 27 October 2021 (UTC)


 * Comment I have been trying to get a handle on commonname and "Israeli Arabs" + "Arab Israelis" is out front with "Israeli Palestinians/Palestinian Israelis" not so far behind. Possibly because many Israeli/pro-Israeli sources use the first as well as historical usage. Any way we can get a proper handle on the current commonname? I am not entirely convinced about poll results, it could be that some respondents are nervous about giving a true answer and it is also possible that things might have changed after the 2021 crisis. My sense is that "Palestinian" identity/identification is on the rise (NYT August 2021 "The people most Israelis have long referred to as "Israeli Arabs" — or colloquially by the demeaning "Arab sector" — now often self-identify as Palestinians, a term many Israeli Jews resent, viewing it as a rejection of Israel.")Selfstudier (talk) 17:32, 27 October 2021 (UTC)


 * According to the paper (p. 29): "The 2019 Arab survey includes 718 Arabs aged 18 and over who were randomly selected from the Population Register administered by the Interior Ministry. The national sample includes 28 Arab villages and towns and mixed Arab-Jewish cities representing a representative cross-section of the adult Arab population within the Green Line (not including East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights). The Arab respondents were identified by name and address and interviewed face-to-face in Arabic in their homes by Arab interviewers. Interviewees were guaranteed complete confidentiality. The interviews were conducted in April, May and June 2019 at the end of the Knesset elections held on April 9." An Arab scholar (Dr. Nohad Ali) was the fieldwork supervisor. So it seems to me they used the correct methodology to avoid respondents feeling "nervous" about giving a "true" answer.
 * By the way, page 88 & 89 you can see the evolution over time. A455bcd9 (talk) 17:43, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

Can we try to keep the above section more of a structured !vote on a requested move? Feel free to support other names above, but can we have the general discussion separate so that it doesnt devolve in to an unreadable mess to any person attempting to close it? Ive made the rest of the section a discussion subsection and ask that User:A455bcd9 copy or re-vote up above since I dont feel comfortable splitting the discussion and copying it myself (and User:RolandR if you meant that comment as a !vote for that matter).  nableezy  - 18:48, 27 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Comment Haaretz Sept 2021 Another source, an opinion piece, "Research and surveys consistently show that the Arab mainstream in Israel identifies as Palestinian; in particular, elected Arab leaders identify as Palestinian." Selfstudier (talk) 18:42, 27 October 2021 (UTC)


 * Sorry you're right. I copied my vote up above. A455bcd9 (talk) 18:51, 27 October 2021 (UTC)


 * Comment: I checked Google ngram. The three most popular denominations in English texts are (in order): "Israeli Arabs" (decreasing since ~1992), "Arabs in Israel" (flat since ~1974), and "Palestinians in Israel" (increasing). "Palestinian citizens of Israel" is also increasing. "Arab citizens of Israel" is quite low. Combinations of "Palestinian" + "Arab" such as "Palestinian Arab citizens of Israel" are really low. A455bcd9 (talk) 21:09, 27 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Interesting, looking at that, I don't know how we ended up with the current title. Carnegie Jun 2021 One more source.Selfstudier (talk) 21:17, 27 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Comment, another academic source, by Dr. Duaa Abu Elhija Mahajna, a Palestinian Israeli scholar: A study of loanwords and code switching in spoken and online written Arabic by Palestinian Israelis (pp. 4-5): "In this dissertation I use the term Palestinian Israelis to refer to Palestinian Arabs who are citizens of Israel. The issue of naming this group of people is controversial, and there are many debates and arguments when it comes to how to introduce them and what to call their dialect of Arabic. [...] In addition, according to Peleg and Waxman (2011, pp. 27-28), Palestinian Israeli society has undergone “Palestinization” since the year 1967, whereby the national consciousness has spread, and Palestinian Israelis have increasingly refused Israeli-Arab identity. [...] According to Peleg and Waxman (2011), however, both “Palestinization” and “Israelization” can take place simultaneously and reinforce each other; they are not essentially paradoxical. The authors assert that “Arabs in Israel, especially younger generations, have become more Palestinian in their self-identity, and at the same time they have been deeply influenced by Israeli culture – a process of acculturation” (p. 28). Lauer (2007) shares Peleg and Waxman’s (2011) view and declares that identifying as a Palestinian does not necessarily require rejecting Israeli citizenship or avoiding Israeli culture. In this dissertation, I adopt the perspective of Lauer, Peleg, and Waxman. Accordingly, I consider Palestinian Israelis a suitable label for this group, as it reflects their dual identity." A455bcd9 (talk) 08:31, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Comment, doing more research on this subject, it seems that the case of Druze is complex because 1/ most of them do not consider themselves Palestinians, 2/ a minority of them do not consider themselves Arabs, 3/ some of them do not hold Israeli citizenship (in the Golan Heights):
 * "[in the occupied Golan Heights] Syrian citizens still compose the majority of the disputed territory, and some Druze in the Golan refuse Israeli citizenship because they still consider themselves Syrian." source
 * "Druze are ethnically Arab and Arabic speaking, but many do not consider themselves Palestinian. [...] However, continuing discrimination against Druze and growing sympathy with Palestinians in the occupied territories has led some to question the community’s strategy of cooperation with the state." MRG
 * "But criticism from Druze, who are also Arabs and practise an offshoot of Islam, has had more effect even though they make up only 1.3 percent of Israel’s citizenry. [...] In Israel, Druze men are drafted by the military unlike other Arab minorities, who often identify as Palestinian." Reuters
 * Some people use the term "Palestinian Druze" (Al-Jazeera Opinion) while some Druze leaders seem to distance themselves from Palestinians (source)
 * "Still, a small number of Druze consider themselves Palestinians because of systematic, statewide injustices committed towards Arabs and Palestinians. [...] Each interviewee pointed at the delicate symbiosis between Druze identifying as Arab and identifying as Palestinian. [...] Given the ethnic tensions that exist in the Israeli state and with its neighbours, some Druze have rejected the classification of ‘Arab’ entirely." (source)
 * "Like Jews, Palestinians are indigenous to Israel. Yet the Israeli Palestinians have involuntarily become a minority — defined by their historical origin (Palestinian), culture, language (Arabic) and religion (generally Christian, Muslim or Druze) — in their homeland since the establishment of Israel some 64 years ago. [...] As evoked at the outset, the denomination of the minority is a controversial issue. Israeli authorities prefer to call this group the ‘Arab minority’ or the ‘Arab citizens of Israel’. With the exception of the Druze component of the Palestinian minority, most Palestinians object to Israel's simple 'Arab' appellation, as they argue that it contributes to a discourse aiming to eliminate Palestinian identity. [...] The Druze have a special standing within Israeli society. Not all identify themselves as Palestinian. [...] The Druze community is unique in its self-identification. Some Druze — though not all — call themselves Palestinians. As Arabic-speakers, Druze identify with Arab nationalism and consider themselves both Arabs and members of the wider Druze community, which extends into neighbouring Syria and Lebanon. In this briefing, the Druze are included in the category of 'Palestinian', in large part because their community faces many of same consequences the discriminatory policies of the Israeli state as the other subgroups of the Palestinian minority. The state of Israel also counts the Druze as members of the same 'Arab' (Palestinian) category that contains Muslims and Christians." (source)
 * "The Druze protested against the law on the grounds that it states that Israel is not their state in spite of their military service and their rejection of any national affiliation to the Palestinian people. [...] Since the Jews and the state neither demand nor expect the Arabs to embrace a Zionist identity or ideology, it is no wonder that only a negligible proportion of the Arabs (2.0% in 2017 and 1.0% in 2019), consisting mainly of Druze, define themselves as Zionist or very Zionist, and by so doing they signal that they do not share the identity of the Jews and the identity of the state (Table 5.17). [...] (for instance, the Druze refrain from a Palestinian identity)" Smooha 2019 (cited above)
 * "These historical circumstances – primarily the extension of the Law of Compulsory Conscription to include  the  Druze,  and  the  establishment  of  a  separate  educational  system  –  shaped  a  unique  identity for the Druze in Israel. This identity is distinct from that of all other Druze in the world and also from that of the other Palestinian Arabs in Israel. [...] Of  the  50  interviewees,  46  described  themselves  as  Israeli.  Three  out  of  the  four  who  did  not  describe themselves as Israeli were the ones who described themselves as Palestinian. [...] Feeling that they do not belong as Arabs from a national standpoint has the further conse-quence that the interviewees do not view themselves as Palestinians, given that a Palestinian identity is the ultimate political expression of Arabs in Israel. Only three described themselves as Palestinian, a negligible percentage, whereas the vast majority of Arabs in Israel see them-selves  as  Palestinians,  and  in  recent  years  this  identity  has  even  become  the  most  prominent  component of the self-description among Arabs in Israel (Smooha, 1988; Suleiman and Beit-Hallahmi, 1997) [...] [The interviewees] define the Palestinians in Israel as Arabs, and those beyond the border as Palestinians, thereby resolving the contradiction. This enables them to be at peace with their Arab identity, more or less, and to fight against Palestinians, a group they themselves are not part of. [...] The  great  majority  of  the  interviewees  in  our  study  also  define  themselves  as  Israelis.  We  have identified three major aspects related to their Israeli identity: the fact of their being citizens of the State of Israel, the attitude of the state and of Jews toward them, and the army service. [...] Again,  findings  from  our  study  clearly  show  that  our  interviewees  are  not  at  peace,  to  put  it  mildly, living with their Arab and Israeli identities. The historic decision made by the Druze leader-ship in choosing the Jewish side in the Palestinian–Israeli conflict led the Palestinians to adopt a certain stance toward the Druze, with some seeing them as traitors. This affects detrimentally the interviewees’ Arab identity, as they report, and makes them feel unwanted by the Arab nation." source
 * Still, it seems that Western reports classify them as Palestinians, and even the state of Israel classifies them in the same categories as Christians and Muslims. So "Palestinian Arab in Israel" is still a good title I think. A455bcd9 (talk) 09:18, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
 * There's already an Israeli Druze article and the circumstances between the populations are so different that I dont even really think they belong in the same article. Be totally fine formally splitting the topics if this is moved to something with Palestinian in the title.  nableezy  - 15:41, 28 October 2021 (UTC)

As far as the inclusion of Druze, the Druze are treated as a distinct ethnic community in Israel, and if this article were moved to something covering the Palestinians, as that topic merits its own article as its own topic, then the material on the Druze can be removed. The deficiency in relying on one outdated survey that doesnt even address the topic has already been addressed.  nableezy  - 15:30, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Comment The oppose vote Here it's claimed that the majority preferred variations of "Arab citizens of Israel." is based on 2017 survey, out of date irrelevant material.Selfstudier (talk) 11:49, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Here's the original survey: KAS 2017
 * Regarding the methodology: "The survey data was collected by the "Keevoon" research institute under the management of Mitchell Barak, and was conducted in two stages. [...] The second phase was conducted by telephone in August 2017 amongst a representative sample of the adult Arab population in Israel, which included 876 respondents, all Israeli citizens aged 18 and over. The survey was conducted in the Arabic language by native Arabic speakers, and has a sampling error of 2.25%."
 * Results are available page 22:
 * Arab in Israel / Arab citizen of Israel: 40.8%
 * Palestinian: 15.4%
 * Israeli: 11.4%
 * Religious identity ("Muslim", "Christian", "Israeli Muslim", etc.): 9.5%
 * Palestinian in Israel / Palestinian citizen of Israel: 8.9%
 * Arab: 8.7%
 * Other / Don't know: 5.3%
 * If I use the same categories as Smooha 2019:
 * Palestinian identities with an Israeli component: 8.9% (KAS 2017) vs 47% (Smooha 2019),
 * Israeli Arab identities without a Palestinian component (Smooha surprisingly includes "Israeli" and "Arab" in this category): 60.9% (KAS 2017) vs 36% (Smooha 2019),
 * Palestinian identities without an Israeli component: 15.4% (KAS 2017) vs 15% (Smooha 2019).
 * Other / Don't know (Smooha 2019 didn't offer the "Religious identity" category): 14.8% (KAS 2017) vs 2% (Smooha 2019)
 * The results are quite different from both Smooha 2019 and Smooha 2017. So that's why I don't think this survey is irrelevant. (They haven't run a new survey since then.) A different methodology may have led to different results. A455bcd9 (talk) 13:16, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
 * The results are quite different from both Smooha 2019 and Smooha 2017. So that's why I don't think this survey is irrelevant. Exactly why I think it IS irrelevant, does not take into account Nation State law, Trump "peace plan" or Netanyahu inspired 2021 crisis (my comment about not being willing to give true answers applies here as well)Selfstudier (talk) 13:34, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Note that participants in the KAS 2017 survey had to choose just one identity, even though many of them probably had more than one. This makes it hard to interpret the results. How many of those who chose "Israeli-Arab" would answer "yes" to the question "do you identify as Palestinian?". Probably many, because there is no contradiction there, but the question wasn't asked. Zerotalk 14:00, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Comment: I notice there's a page Palestinian workers in Israel. So shouldn't Palestinians in Israel be a disambiguation page with links to this page (no matter whether it is renamed or not) and Palestinian workers in Israel. Similarly, if this page is renamed to NEW_PAGE_NAME, should "Arabs in Israel" and "Arab citizens of Israel" be disambiguation pages with links to Israeli Druze, Palestinian workers in Israel, NEW_PAGE_NAME, and Lebanese in Israel? (and maybe Arab Jews as well?) A455bcd9 (talk) 15:38, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
 * If there are altnames, they should be redirects to this page, Palestinian workers in Israel obviously does not refer to Palestinian citizens of Israel any more than Jewish workers in Israel would refer to Jewish citizens of Israel. I don't get why Lebanese in Israel and Arab Jews would have anything to do with Palestinians unless they identify as Palestinian in which case the name covers it.
 * Palestinians workers are Palestinians so "Palestinians in Israel" can refer to both ethnic Palestinian who are citizens of Israel and Palestinian citizens who work in Israel. Similarly, "Arabs in Israel" can refer to ethnic Palestinian who are citizens of Israel, Israeli Druze, Palestinian citizens who work in Israel, Lebanese people who live in Israel, and/or Mizrahi Jews in Israel. So what I say is: should "Palestinians in Israel", "Arabs in Israel", and "Arab citizens of Israel" be redirection or disambiguation pages? A455bcd9 (talk) 16:23, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I would say Arabs in Israel can be a disambiguation page or a parent article to all the above, pointing to the Palestinians in Israel, Lebanese in Israel and Druze in Israel articles.  nableezy  - 16:28, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

This article is not meant to cover "every minority", it is meant to cover the Palestinian Arab minority. That !vote does not make a whole lot of sense. Neither does using one old survey that has been contradicted over and over by more recent, and more widely cited, surveys. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap"> nableezy  - 21:17, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

The objective of supporters is to have a page for Israeli Palestinians being Israelis that identify as Palestinian in much the same way as there are articles for Israeli Druze, Palestinian Christians, Arab Christians or even Italian Americans for that matter. That there exists some crossover between the different groups doesn't really matter to the principle. Maybe the simplest thing is to just create the new page? Selfstudier (talk) 10:25, 6 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Agreed.
 * The discussion is currently clearly in favor of the supporters right now, but given how passionate Icewhiz was about this topic in 2018 (see /Archive_7%23Requested_move_2_September_2018) I expect a bunch of his socks to turn up soon (possible that one or two already have). So if nothing else, it will be helpful to draw these socks up to the surface.
 * And as Selfstudier says, it wouldn’t matter, as creating a clean new page may even be better.
 * Onceinawhile (talk) 21:46, 6 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Yup, WP:CANVASSing here Selfstudier (talk) 10:32, 7 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Plonski, S. (2017). Palestinian Citizens of Israel: Power, Resistance and the Struggle for Space. United Kingdom: I.B.Tauris, Israel and Its Palestinian Citizens: Ethnic Privileges in the Jewish State. (2017). India: Cambridge University Press, plentiful sourcing, books, scholarly papers, newsorgs, amnesty, all sorts for "Palestinian citizens of Israel" or similar, going for a new page is well motivated.Selfstudier (talk) 13:03, 8 November 2021 (UTC)

It is quite disappointing that users continue to distort the picture by pointing to outdated sources. The usage has shifted, and reliable sources now routinely use the term Palestinian-Israelis, and the self-identification data is likewise supporting that it is the most commonly used self-description. But just bald assertions trump the actual data here. I very much hope the closer takes that in to account when evaluating the arguments. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap"> nableezy  - 19:08, 8 November 2021 (UTC)

I still dont understand why people are talking about "all Arabic speaking Israeli citizens". There is an article on Israeli Druze. There is an article on Lebanese in Israel. Those are separate topics. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap"> nableezy  - 20:27, 8 November 2021 (UTC)


 * Please be respectful of others’ identities: …so it is not our place to force this ethnic identity on them. Current title is factual and descriptive: they are Arabs….
 * Many editors in this conversation who I believe identify as Israeli Jews or American Jews have made similar comments. Please be more careful with your words when commenting on other people’s identities. The Arab identity is not ordained by God. It is an identity like any other - an imagined community. It usually means simply Arabic-speaking, but with many modern exclusions of peoples who eschew it for politic reasons (many Arabic-speaking Jews, Copts, Maronites etc). For Palestinians it comes with a special burden – successions of Israeli governments have used the term “Arab” against them for generations to justify ridding the country of its native peoples (most pertinently in relation to the refugees awaiting their return), with the implication that they belong anywhere in the Arab world, so no need for them to stay in the Holy Land. When an identity is used against a group, it is easy to see why the topic can become deeply sensitive. We should respect this sensitivity.
 * WarKosign is right that we should not force any ethnic identity on any peoples, and that includes the term Arab.
 * Onceinawhile (talk) 00:16, 9 November 2021 (UTC)
 * See Palestinians. The lead section explains that Palestinians, a.k.a Palestinian Arabs are "are largely culturally and linguistically Arab". Applying a correct term is not using it "against" anyone. The argument whether they are "native" or not to some land is also irrelevant. We are calling them Arabs because this is how most of them describe themselves. &#8220;WarKosign&#8221; 09:34, 9 November 2021 (UTC)
 * the request was for sensitivity and respect. Put the debate aside for a moment - I will avoid commenting on your latest set of arguments. The point I am making is that these identities are those of other people, not your own, so it would be appropriate to show some humility and acceptance of the limitations of your knowledge. The bull in a china shop approach is not appropriate. Onceinawhile (talk) 16:51, 9 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Lead of Italian Americans says "..are Americans who are of Italian descent." -> Palestinian Israelis are Israelis of Palestinian descent, that wasn't so hard was it? Nor does that prevent them from describing themselves as Arabs, that's up to them. https://imeu.org/article/fact-sheet-palestinian-citizens-of-israel Selfstudier (talk) 10:35, 9 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Most of them in fact describe themselves as Palestinians, excepting Druze who are covered in the Israeli Druze article. See the most recent data from Sammy Smooha (summarized here): Most Arabs view themselves as Palestinian (only 35.9 per cent in 2019 defined themselves as Israeli Arabs compared to 47.1 per cent as Palestinians in Israel and 14.8 per cent as just Palestinians) and expect the Jews to respect their ties with the Palestinians. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap"> nableezy  - 15:33, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

Here's a recent source that shows that only 7% identify theselves as Palestinian. &#8220;WarKosign&#8221; 21:51, 10 November 2021 (UTC)


 * Better tell the Independent "Israel's population of more than 9 million includes nearly 7 million Jews and 2 million Palestinian citizens." Selfstudier (talk) 22:14, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Right, because a mistake in the Inedependent determines the ethnicity of the Israeli Arabs... &#8220;WarKosign&#8221; 07:53, 11 November 2021 (UTC)
 * If it was just the indy (via AP), then yes, it would be a mistake but it isn't just them it's pretty much nearly all the majors inclusive Wapo, NYT etc as well as Amnesty, I'd say there was something to it myself.Selfstudier (talk) 12:40, 11 November 2021 (UTC)
 * That "recent source" of yours is based on a survey by the Jewish People Policy Institute. A non-profit that has "the purpose of promoting and securing the Jewish people and Israel." That is a partisan NGO without any academic credentials. Whereas Sammy Smooha has been tracking this specific topic academically for over a decade now (having published the Index of Arab-Jewish Relations series since 2003) and is extremely widely cited as an expert in the field (see here). There is a reason WP:SCHOLARSHIP is the most reliable type of source. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap"> nableezy  - 15:26, 11 November 2021 (UTC)

<div style="padding-left: 1.6em; font-style: italic; border-top: 1px solid #a2a9b1; margin: 0.5em 0; padding-top: 0.5em">The discussion above is closed. <b style="color: #FF0000;">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Vote on proposed title change
Hello all! I am Anthony. I am proposing a title change from "Arab citizens of Israel" to a new one. Based on my opinions, here are my most logical choices: 1. Arabs in Israel 2. Arab Israelis There would be a vote later on this link. Voting would last for a week from 25 November to 2 December. On 3 December, the votes are tallied and voting would be stopped. I would delete it on 3 or 4 December. Link: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSe34YRDt89GDVf_g4GR8TsldWYyG7crLs9TIgjllIz2YFGuBw/viewform?usp=sf_link Ant1234567 (talk) 22:30, 24 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Hi, you may comment freely on the talk page but I'm afraid you need 500 + edits to your credit to participate in formal discussions in this area, which don't necessarily work as a vote and need to take place on wiki. Atm, could be wrong but I think people have tentatively concluded that this article may be OK as is, if a new one is created for Israeli Palestinians (or something like that).Selfstudier (talk) 22:38, 24 November 2021 (UTC)

What should we call the new page for Israelis that identify as Palestinian?
As already indicated "Palestinian citizens of Israel" works for me (we have plenty of refs including scholarly refs for that)Selfstudier (talk) 19:03, 8 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Since there is no official records on how many Palestinian "citizens" you have, how about Palestinian identity in Israel? That can actually be an interesting article about the development of the Palestinian identity in Israel and how it was represented in art and politics. People like Mahmoud Darwish would have their mention there.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 20:22, 8 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I agree that "identify as" should figure prominently in the lead as people seem to be confusing this with "are", the exact stats are not really the issue here, we just need to move on from Balfour's "non-Jewish communities", this is 2021. Selfstudier (talk) 22:20, 8 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Palestinians in Israel or Palestinian citizens of Israel. Im fine just splitting that off in to a new article. And having this be an overview of each of the subarticles. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap"> nableezy  - 20:33, 8 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Palestinian citizens of Israel. The other two options do not work: (1) “Palestinian identity in Israel” fails WP:CONSISTENT as all Wikipedia people articles are about identity (e.g. Jewishness is an identity; so equally the article Israeli Jews should not be called “Jewish identity in Israel”); and (2) “Palestinians in Israel” would include undocumented Gazans and West Bankers. Onceinawhile (talk) 23:46, 8 November 2021 (UTC)

It looks like the move will be closed no consensus (which is silly as the initial closure was a pretty blatantly incorrect reading of the discussion), but in that case Id say just start splitting this off to a new article and have this be the parent article covering Druze, Palestinian, Lebanese and any other subgrouping. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap"> nableezy  - 22:26, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
 * What about majorty of of Israeli Arabs who do not self-identify as Palestinian, are you going to leave them here or move them to your WP:POVFORK? &#8220;WarKosign&#8221; 05:52, 16 November 2021 (UTC)
 * What Nableezy said seems a clear answer to this.Selfstudier (talk) 12:11, 16 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Nableezy seems to intent to create an article for Israeli Arabs who are not Druze, Bedouin, Labenese, etc labeling them all as Palestinian, whether this is how they want to be described or not. &#8220;WarKosign&#8221; 18:16, 16 November 2021 (UTC)
 * The intended new article is for Israeli citizens who identify as Palestinian, no labeling by Wikpedians required.Selfstudier (talk) 18:22, 16 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Whether or not all editors here consider those who identify as Palestinian to be full human beings, they still deserve representation. Onceinawhile (talk) 19:08, 16 November 2021 (UTC)
 * You keep implying that someone does not considers Israeli Arabs "full human beings". Care you explain who? What is a non-full human being, anyway? An empty human being? A Hobbit? &#8220;WarKosign&#8221; 09:56, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
 * See Israelis. In that list, the Palestinians in Israel are the only major group without their own main article. No reasonable person would oppose such a thing. Unfortunately, there are a significant number of people who deny the Palestinians their own identity - see for example the racist book A History of the Palestinian People. There is no place for this kind of sentiment on Wikipedia. Onceinawhile (talk) 10:32, 17 November 2021 (UTC)

What majority of Arabs do not self-identify as Palestinians? The Druze are covered at Israeli Druze. The Lebanese are covered at Lebanese in Israel. That you insist on calling the people who do self-identify as Palestinian as "Israeli Arabs" is a personal problem. The completely horseshit claim that Nableezy seems to intent to create an article for Israeli Arabs who are not Druze, Bedouin, Labenese, etc labeling them all as Palestinian, whether this is how they want to be described or not is just that. I intend to have an article on the Palestinian citizens of Israel. That would be a child article of this one, as this one also covers Israeli Druze and Negev Bedouin and Lebanese in Israel, distinct populations with distinct circumstances. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap"> nableezy  - 18:42, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Majority of Israeli Arabs to not defined themselves as 'Palestinian', yet you call them all 'Palestinians'. I respect the right of Israeli Arabs to call themselves whatever they want, and so should you.&#8220;WarKosign&#8221; 19:07, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Im not entirely sure why you insist on continuing to ignore the better sources here. You continue to link to a poll by the Jewish People Policy Institute, a partisan NGO, and ignore the actual academic expertise here (only 35.9 per cent in 2019 defined themselves as Israeli Arabs compared to 47.1 per cent as Palestinians in Israel and 14.8 per cent as just Palestinians). You can continue to point to one survey by an unreliable source, but the actual academic experts on the topic show your fairly obvious bias in this regard. And then you have the gall to claim that you respect the right of Israeli Arabs to call themselves whatever they want while repeatedly calling them what sources show they emphatically reject. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap"> nableezy  - 19:19, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Citing an organization whose primary goal is "to ensure the thriving of the Jewish People and the Jewish civilization" as a source on Palestinian identity is absurd. Plus their survey took a sample of just 273 "non Jews", all by telephone, and the enormous change in the numbers since the year prior shows how meaningless they are. Onceinawhile (talk) 20:50, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I don't really care what this article is called or if a new one is created, but the above is a pile of baloney that needs correcting. A sample of 273 people is more than enough for a statistically meaningful result, with a margin of error of +/- 6%. The disparity between two results year after year does not, in and of itself, say anything about the validity of the methodology or result. This is doubly so when the survey conductors acknowledge the disparity and provide a number of hypotheses that explain them. Finally, if it is absurd to rely on an NGO with a certain agenda as a source, it is just as absurd to rely on another survey by an NGO, which starts with a premise that "Established in 2015, this government has taken steps to weaken democracy". Inf-in MD (talk) 23:39, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
 * That is the work of an established expert, Sammy Smooha, not the view of a partisan NGO. Kindly stop making things up. Thanks in advance. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap"> nableezy  - 16:44, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
 * This survey is the work of the Israeli Democracy Institute, an NGO with an agenda, just as I wrote : . Yes, a person (Smoocha) conducted it, just like a person (Fuchs) conducted the JPPI survey. Fuchs is every bit an expert as Smoocha. Kindly take care to read more carefully, and stop the incivility. Inf-in MD (talk) 17:29, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
 * No, again, it is the work of Sammy Smooha, somebody who has academically been tracking this topic for 2 decades and is widely cited on the topic. Camil Fuchs is indeed widely cited, but on an entirely different topic. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap"> nableezy  - 17:55, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
 * From the above link: "The Index was inaugurated in 2003 under the aegis of the University of Haifa and became a joint project of IDI and the University of Haifa in 2012". Inf-in MD (talk) 18:10, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Do you know what the word "joint" means? <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap"> nableezy  - 19:34, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes, so? Inf-in MD (talk) 21:25, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Because you bolded a joint project of IDI but neglected and the University of Haifa. Beyond that, as repeatedly said, Smooha himself is an established expert in this field. See his work and how often he is cited. Are you seriously challenging the reliability of his work? Fuchs is certainly an expert in some things, however he is not published academically in this topic at all. So no, he is not every bit an expert as Smoocha (sic) on this topic. If youd like to appeal to his expertise, then the topic that covers would be what he is actually published academically. Which, again for the obtuse here, is not this topic. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap"> nableezy  - 21:51, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I am not challenging the inclusion of Smooha, I am debunking the nonsense that a sample of 273 people is not statistically valid, or that a survey conducted by an academic expert in statistics, who is also described as Israel's leading pollster/polling expert, can be dismissed because he did it on behalf of an NGO. Inf-in MD (talk) 21:58, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
 * These “273 non-Jews” could have all been in Daliyat al-Karmel or in Umm al-Fahm. The two places would give very different answers. For the 273 to have been statistically relevant the locations of the respondents would have have to have been carefully balanced. Given the agenda of the Jewish Nationalist organization who funded the research, this seems unlikely. Onceinawhile (talk) 22:28, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Why don't you take the time to read the actual survey materials before continuing to spout this ignorant nonsense? "Respondents comprised a representative sample of the two populations surveyed", and compare with the near-identical wording of the Smooha survey -" representing a representative cross-section of the adult Arab population". Inf-in MD (talk) 23:27, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Smooha is academically published and regularly cited on the topic of identity among Israel's Palestinian-Arab population. Fuchs is not. As such, Fuchs himself is not a reliable source for that topic. The publisher, a partisan NGO, is likewise not a reliable source. Fuchs has never been published, much less had relevant publications cited, on this topic. Smooha has. So no, again, not the same expertise on this topic. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap"> nableezy  - 22:37, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
 * This is not an academic, peer reviewed publication by Smooha, but a survey project of IDI. IDI is every bit the partisan NGO that JPPI is. If IDI's survey is ok, so is JPPI's. Inf-in MD (talk) 23:30, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Sammy Smooha is an established expert on this topic, and if he were writing about it in his blog it would be reliable. And no, this is a joint project between the IDI and the University of Haifa. And, again, run by an established expert in the field. So no, not the same, despite your best efforts to obfuscate and dissemble. I hope you get the difference here, because I do. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap"> nableezy  - 13:13, 20 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I am not arguing against including Smooha, so you can stop repeating that strawman. Inf-in MD (talk) 13:28, 20 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Just Smooha >>> Fuchs is what I see, no strawman.Selfstudier (talk) 13:35, 20 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Citing the same easily refuted sourcing as you already cited in the discussion above. They are entitled to a page whatever the percentage is and it's certainly not 7%, citing that just makes you look silly.Selfstudier (talk) 19:22, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
 * So they are "entitled" to be called what you decided they should be called, according to a cherry-picked source. I see. &#8220;WarKosign&#8221; 09:53, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I supplied several sources besides that already and there are plenty more as you will soon see. Your continued objections hold no water. Wait for the page to go up and then you can say your piece (again).Selfstudier (talk) 13:53, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Lol, we're the ones citing an academic source that google scholar shows is cited widely. Youre the one cherry picking a partisan NGO. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap"> nableezy  - 16:40, 19 November 2021 (UTC)


 * - I don't know if anyone wants to hear what I think about this, but I think the best way to proceed may be just to write the damn article and then see which title fits best when you've got the first draft down. Or even just boldly create and leave perfecting the title to others. FOARP (talk) 18:27, 21 November 2021 (UTC)
 * So we ought to make a start on this and the initial page Palestinian citizens of Israel is up, all should feel free to improve the article, add sources and so on.Selfstudier (talk) 11:49, 26 November 2021 (UTC)
 * The new page is a logical result of the discussions on this page and yet two editors, a drive by IP and Inf-in MD have reverted its creation. As it says on the new article talk page, it is a work in progress, a base to work off, the end result being that material here will just be a summary of what is there and linked out to it (in other words the new article is intended as a spinout article, not a POV fork.)Selfstudier (talk) 18:11, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

"self-declared"
Why would only Palestinians be "self-declared" as opposed to any other group? <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap"> nableezy  - 13:59, 29 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I reverted that, also attributed and sourced the material on "Israeli-Arabs" and "Arab-Israelis". <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap"> nableezy  - 14:11, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

Number of citizens
Currently the first sentence of the third paragraph has "the Arab population in 2019 was estimated at 1,890,000, representing 20.95%" and Section #4 has the numbers from 2006, 2012 and 2019. The Central Bureau of Statistics Media Release Population of Israel on the Eve of 2021 https://www.cbs.gov.il/he/mediarelease/DocLib/2020/438/11_20_438e.pdf has 1,956,000 (21.1%) as of 31 December 2020. Should that be added to or replace the earlier years? Assuming there'll be a similar press release at the end of next month should the number in it be added or replace the above? Mcljlm (talk) 05:17, 28 November 2021 (UTC)
 * There are more recent numbers from CBS: In Rosh Hashana 2021 it was reported there are "over 1.98 million Arabs, who account for 21%" (full report in Hebrew). &#8220;WarKosign&#8221; 06:47, 28 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Eve of 2022 figure: "about 1.995 million Arabs, 21.1%" CBS Hebrew media release Mcljlm (talk) 01:45, 3 January 2022 (UTC)
 * CBS English media release Eve of 2022: https://www.cbs.gov.il/he/mediarelease/DocLib/2021/447/11_21_447e.pdf Mcljlm (talk) 11:51, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

https://strategicassessment.inss.org.il/en/articles/israeli-demographics/ Detailed analysis through 2020. Selfstudier (talk) 12:00, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the. —Community Tech bot (talk) 21:36, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Arabs Israel.png

Population evolution
Damn, from 200k after the 48 war to 1.8 million today? That's an increase nearing 900%?? How did that happen? That has to be covered in further detail in the article!! Synotia (moan) 09:37, 24 January 2023 (UTC)


 * I replied to the same question at Israel just now. Israel includes East Jerusalem Arabs in its count. Ispop went from 1 to 9 mill (their figures) between 1950 and 2019, that's 9 times as well. Selfstudier (talk) 10:05, 24 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Sure but it is largely due to Jewish immigration, most notably in the 1950s and 1990s. Also it includes the Arabs in question.
 * Are Palestinians from the world moving to Israel? Synotia (moan) 10:52, 24 January 2023 (UTC)
 * There is a discussion of the relative pop growth rates in the source I gave at Israel talk page. For instance "Jewish immigration contributed to 44.7% of the increase achieved in the population between 15 May 1948 and the end of 2007" and As a consequence, immigration also brought about an increase in natural growth so that it became the main source of population growth."
 * As for the Arabs "These figures demonstrate the continuous diminution in 1948 Arab growth rates, and this decrease has been accelerating during the last decade, so that it has notreached more than half (or slightly more) of the highest rate ever reached. Despite this significant decrease, however, Arab growth rate in 2007 remained at 186% of the Jewish growth rate. The average growth rate was confined only to natural growth; that is, the difference between the number of births and the number of deaths during the period extending from 15 May 1948 and the end of 2007, and this was slightly less than the average Jewish growth rate which encompasses both natural growth and net immigration"
 * Anyway, it needs looking at in depth, just looking at raw pop figures can be very misleading. Selfstudier (talk) 11:01, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

Not all Israeli Arabs are citizens
While it is true that there are 2 million Arab residents in Israel, not all of them are citizens. More specifically, the vast majority of East Jerusalem Arabs don't hold Israeli citizenship and don't have the right to it (they can ask for it, but the majority of applications are rejected).

This needs to be urgently corrected, because the information provided by the article in its present form is misleading. Josep Amunt i Avall (talk) 20:18, 17 March 2023 (UTC)


 * This article is about Arab citizens of Israel. Although Israel has annexed East Jerusalem, this act is not recognised by other states, and Palestinians in East Jerusalem do not live in Israel. RolandR (talk) 23:49, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
 * If this article is about pre-1967 Israel, the map shouldn't include East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights in the first place. More to the point, the figure of 20.95% of Arabs in Israel is true only if the Arabs in both territories are counted. So, we should either inform the number of Arabs within the internationally recognized borders of Israel (which is closer to 1.6 M than to 1.9 M) or clarify that the figure of ~1.9 M includes Arabs who don't hold Israeli citizenship. Josep Amunt i Avall (talk) 11:50, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

Roland i think Josep is right here. In our infobox we say there are 278,000 in East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights Arab citizens of Israel. And there are not. The Syrians of the Golan have largely rejected Israeli citizenship, as have the ones in EJ. We are just counting Arabs, not Arab citizens. And we need to correct that. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap"> nableezy  - 16:57, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 11 November 2023
This page references the Nakba as if it was universally agreed upon event. It is not. To include this as factual truth accepted by all is anti-Jewish and DEEPLY anti-Israeli. Mention of it is fine but it should include some contextualization that the Nakba is only viewed as an event for the Arab world. And the majority of Jews, disregard this as propaganda to discredit the legitimacy of Israel. I will not donate to Wikipedia until this is rectified. 2601:742:8000:C0E0:2199:497D:FBD4:D90B (talk) 03:27, 11 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Pictogram voting question.svg Question: I assume this is about the use of the term in the lead. However, I'm unsure exactly what you're looking to change that sentence to – could you specify exactly what you would like to replace, and with what you would like it replaced with? Tollens (talk) 05:20, 11 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Additionally, so you're aware, no editor is affected by your decision whether or not to donate – we are all volunteers. Tollens (talk) 05:21, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

British palastinean citizenship
The statement in the first paragraph referring to Israeli Arabs as having  a heritage of Palestinian citizenship  is both misleading and insulting. It gives recognition to the British mandated "citizenship" for the indigenous inhabitants of the foreign territory under British control. As this "citizenship" was created by a foreign government in 1925 for only 23 years it does not define the "heritage" of palastinean citizenship for anyone, especially considering that the British gave this citizenship to all of the current inhabitants! Including a large percentage of non-arabs many of whom were Jewish immigrants from Europe! Thecarriger (talk) 22:01, 1 January 2024 (UTC)


 * What I think should be changed (format using textdiff): near the bottom of the economic status section, there's an instance of the phrase "they has" that should be changed to "they have"
 * Why it should be changed: "they has" is grammatically incorrect

Daffgatter (talk) 01:37, 24 January 2024 (UTC)


 * ✅ Shadow311 (talk) 16:22, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

Recent revert
1. Change: "Palestinian Arabs are the largest ethnic minority in Israel. They are Israeli citizens of Palestinian heritage and various religions (Muslim, Christian or Druze), bilingual in Arabic and Hebrew, and with varying social identities." to "Arabs are the largest ethnic minority in Israel. They comprise a hybrid community of Israeli citizens with a heritage of Palestinian citizenship, mixed religions (Muslim, Christian or Druze), bilingual in Arabic and Hebrew, and with varying social identities."
 * The first version is more reflective of the source

2. Change: "Many Arabs have family ties to Palestinians in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip as well as to Palestinian refugees in the neighbouring states of Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon, although Israel denies family unification rights to those living in the occupied territories. A recent poll reported that 60 percent of Israel's Arab citizens have a positive view of the Israeli state, although Arab citizens have also been described, and sometimes identify as, second-class citizens.  " to "Many Arabs have family ties to Palestinians in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip as well as to Palestinian refugees in the neighbouring states of Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon. 60 percent of Israel's Arab citizens have a positive view of the Israeli state; "
 * The first is more complete and consistent with the rest of the article.

I suggest we revert these changes. @Île flottante DMH223344 (talk) 17:16, 6 February 2024 (UTC)


 * My primary issues with the edit is the superfluous addition of ‘Palestinian’ to the sentence ‘Arabs at the largest ethnic minority in Israel.’ Not all Arab citizens of Israel are Palestinians (either because they do not identify as such, or they belong to the double minority of Syrian Druze who accepted Israeli citizenship). Given that the article is about all the Arab citizens of Israel, focusing solely on a section (albeit the majority of the overall group) in the very first sentence doesn’t seem appropriate.


 * That said, I think your modification to the second sentence in the lead is beneficial. The phrasing ‘heritage of Palestinian citizenship’ could cause people to believe that their identity did not exist at all before 1925 when the citizenship order was issued.


 * Finally, I do agree with you that mentioning the issues of family reunification and a feeling of second class citizenship are topics worthy of inclusion. Île flottante (talk) 08:43, 7 February 2024 (UTC)
 * "My primary issues with the edit is the superfluous addition of ‘Palestinian’ to the sentence ‘Arabs at the largest ethnic minority in Israel.’"
 * The first paragraph of the lead is almost entirely about palestinians, thus my addition of "Palestinian": "Arabs are the largest ethnic minority in Israel. They comprise a hybrid community of Israeli citizens with a heritage of Palestinian citizenship, mixed religions (Muslim, Christian or Druze), bilingual in Arabic and Hebrew, and with varying social identities. Since the 1948 exodus, the Palestinians that have remained within Israel's 1948 borders have been colloquially known as "48-Arabs". In Arabic, commonly used terms to refer to Israel's Arab population include both "48-Arab" (عرب ٤٨, ‘Arab Thamāniya wa-Arba‘īn; Hebrew: 48-ערבים) and 48-Palestinian (فلسطينيو ٤٨, Filasṭīniyyū Thamāniya wa-Arba‘īn)."
 * I would be fine reworking this first paragraph, but it will take some work to get it right. The change I proposed above at least makes the paragraph factually correct. (Right now, the first two sentences of the lead imply that Arab Israelis are all palestinian) DMH223344 (talk) 17:39, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 21 March 2024
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 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: No consensus (non-admin closure)  microbiology Marcus [petri dish·growths] 20:38, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Arab citizens of Israel → Palestinian Arab citizens of Israel – Following the even votes at Articles for deletion/Palestinian citizens of Israel, the discussion was closed as merge. That article had been created as an outcome of another even vote at Talk:Arab citizens of Israel/Archive 8, which talked about a refactoring of the content if the name was changed. Implementing this merge will result in such a refactoring. Onceinawhile (talk) 16:19, 21 March 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. Bensci54 (talk) 16:53, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

"...what label should be attached to them? Much more than merely semantics is at stake. how one chooses to identify the Arab minority in israel is often indicative of one’s politics. Supporters of israel generally refer to the Arab community in Israel as 'Israeli Arabs' or 'Arab Israelis' – using the terms commonly used by Israeli governments, the Hebrew-language media in Israel, and most Israeli Jews. Critics of israel, by contrast, tend to describe Israel’s Arab citizens simply as Palestinians or Palestinian Arabs. in doing so, they emphasize the Palestinian national identity of the Arab population in Israel and clearly reject the Israeli state’s longstanding avoidance of that label.Which, if any, of these names is correct? Are Arabs in Israel 'Israeli Arabs' or 'Palestinian Arabs'? Are they Israelis or Palestinians?"
 * Oppose  Doesn’t that deny a significant amount of arguments from the original thread, being that there is strong but not complete overlap? As the current title is broader and encompasses all, it’s preferable. FortunateSons (talk) 11:26, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Current title is broader and better. Palestinian Arabs are Arabs, ergo are included under the current implied scope. Why exclude the fraction of Israeli Arabs that are not or do not identify as Palestinian? Why should the page be rescoped? Srnec (talk) 03:25, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Comment It seems the only way to fix up somewhat contradictory closes is for each subgroup of "Arab citizens of Israel" (which in truth is nothing more than an Israeli invention) to have its own article (some already do), so this one should have all the material that has nothing to do with Palestinian citizens of Israel removed from it and be renamed.Selfstudier (talk) 11:00, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Not all Israeli Arabs self-identify as Palestinian, yet all identify as Arab. Marokwitz (talk) 11:08, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Oppose Clearly an NPOV violation as not all Arabs identify as Palestinian. As I've suggested before, if people want an article on Arabs with Israeli citizenship who identify as Palestinian, that could be legitimately forked to Palestinian identity in Israel. Number   5  7  13:06, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Comment The real problem here is that the current title is Israeli POV and thus violates WP:POVNAME. This can be credibly sourced without difficulty, viz:
 * Having said that, it is not clear that the current proposal is neutral either therefore I think we need to find a consensus via an RFC and not by an RM where editors are simply going to !vote their POV as is occurring here already.Selfstudier (talk) 11:17, 25 March 2024 (UTC)
 * That's a fair enough point – what would be a neutral term in your opinion? GnocchiFan (talk) 10:38, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Atm, I am simply considering an RFC with question "Is the current title NPOV? If not, what would be an appropriate title?" Selfstudier (talk) 15:34, 28 March 2024 (UTC)


 * Oppose per Marokwitz. 三葉草 San Yeh Tsao 04:07, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Oppose – clearly not all Arab Israelis identify as Palestinian. I understand the concerns raised by Selfstudier (and mentioned on our Palestinian citizens of Israel article) that this could be seen as POV by some, but I fail to see any alternative that would be suitable. – GnocchiFan (talk) 10:41, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Yes, of course but Druze, Bedouin, Circassian, Jew, etcetera, all have their own article, so why not PCI? After that, why do we need this article at all, except on the same basis as we have articles Judea and Samaria Area and West Bank, and WP:WESTBANK to go with it, clearly identifying the Israeli POV. Selfstudier (talk) 15:39, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Relisting comment: There seems to be consensus that the current title may be NPOV but that the proposed title isn't better. Relisting to see if any NPOV titles are proposed. Bensci54 (talk) 16:53, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Support renaming to "Palestinian and Arab citizens of Israel" as a middle ground, which builds on the consensus of the AfD to merge the two articles. Also important to note that a quick google search reveals that "Palestinian citizens of Israel" shows 191k results, while "Arab citizens of Israel" shows 142k results. Aside from these search results, majority of "Arab Israelis" are Palestinians, so we are giving undue weight here to the minority of "Arab Israelis" who do not identify as Palestinian for whatever reason. Makeandtoss (talk) 20:11, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Are some Palestinian citizens of Israel not Arabs? —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 21:01, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Not that I can think of; but allegedly, some Arab citizens of Israel are not Palestinian, or at least they do not identify as such. Makeandtoss (talk) 08:21, 31 March 2024 (UTC)
 * It really depends how you define Arab. For example there are Palestinian Christians who came from Greece in the early 20th century, but now speak Arabic. Are they Arab Christians? Or Arabic-speaking Greek Christians? The more you discuss ethnicity and identity, the more you unravel what a load of meaningless drivel it all is – except that is, of course, for use in racist rhetoric. Iskandar323 (talk) 08:41, 31 March 2024 (UTC)
 * It's not really the issue, the Israeli POV simply classifies the population that is not Jewish as Arab, a practice that goes back to the Balfour Declaration ("existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine") and which then forms the basis for discrimination against that population. Selfstudier (talk) 10:22, 31 March 2024 (UTC)
 * I think it's an important question here. We shouldn't use an article title saying "A and B" if A is a subset of B. That would be redundant and confusing to readers since it would imply a non-subset relationship. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 17:03, 31 March 2024 (UTC)
 * The more important thing is that "Arab citizens of Israel" is an Israeli invention and terminology, regardless of what subsets it contains. Selfstudier (talk) 17:12, 31 March 2024 (UTC)
 * The real problem is the merger, the arguments for which were born out of deep miscomprehension. As noted, "Israeli Arabs" is an Israeli administrative categorization; "Palestinian citizens of Israel" was a topic/page about identity. The merger will erase the page about identity in favour of maintaining only a page about the administrative term – a somewhat onerous erasure. Iskandar323 (talk) 17:40, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

<div style="padding-left: 1.6em; font-style: italic; border-top: 1px solid #a2a9b1; margin: 0.5em 0; padding-top: 0.5em">The discussion above is closed. <b style="color: #FF0000;">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
 * Support renaming to "Palestinian and Arab citizens of Israel" as a middle ground. It does not make sense to have two articles about what is (with <1% exceptions) the same group of people. (The exceptions are Golan Heights Arabs and a few thousand Lebanese). The Israeli authorities call them "Arab citizens of Israel" (ACI) and in the last decade or so, the majority of ACIs have started to prefer the term "Palestinian citizens of Israel (PCI)" or at least six variations using "Palestinian". I have over eight reliable sources which specifically say these terms are used for the same group, and 4 additional RS that use them interchangeably. Compare that to the argument that PCIs are "people who prefer the term Palestinian" - and there is *no* reliable source about the topic ever brought forward in these extensive discussions. I still don't understand how so many RS are simply ignored and some editors simply without RS that the term PCIs describes people who "prefer" that term, as if that were self-evident. That would be like having four separate articles for Black Americans, African Americans, Colored Americans and Negro Americans for example (pardon my use of the 2 terms now considered offensive, it's only to make a point). In any case, the result of that discussion was to delete the PCI article and merge any remainder into this one (which I had largely done anyway). I think compromising on the name is wise, because respecting the wishes of the majority of the PCI people themselves, would lead us to name the article "Palestinian citizens of Israel". As an analogy, the article Black Americans was moved to African Americans in 2009, presumably out of respect for the majority of African Americans' preference, rather than WP:COMMON. But I think the pushback from editors favoring the terminology of the Israeli authorities would be so great, that it would be intractable. Therefore Palestinian and Arab citizens of Israel. But, to keep the article as ACI, is considered by some a term that the Israeli ruling establishment use in order to dissociate PCIs from other descendants of the people of Mandatory Palestine, who live in the West Bank including East Jerusalem, the Gaza Strip, and outside of historic Palestine — although some PCIs would not agree.Keizers (talk) 22:28, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
 * The Druze Israelis are officially part of the Arab Citizens of Israel, but AFAIK few if any within Israel identify as Palestinian, but instead lean en masse into the Israeli side of they identity. They are 7.5% of the Arab population, 1.6% of all. Iskandar323 (talk) 04:58, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
 * I don't think this is a "middle ground" and is arguably quite confusing as it could be read as Palestinians not being Arabs. The idea that "Arab citizens of Israel" is non-neutral and an "Israeli invention" is nonsense in my view. It is a simple descriptive term, and in my view is the middle ground between describing people as "Arab-Israelis" and "Palestinians". And re the complaint re lack of article on Palestinian identity, I don't think anyone would have complained had there been an article on Palestinian identity in Israel. Number   5  7  11:24, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
 * I think the best thing to do here is move directly to RFC on the neutrality issue. The irritating thing here is that there are sources aplenty on PCI and yet no article, one has to ask why is that? Selfstudier (talk) 11:35, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
 * I think it's been explained why, including at both an RM and the AfD. But again – I don't think anyone would have a problem with an article on Palestinian identity in Israel. I really don't understand the resistance to simply putting the information there... Number   5  7  12:17, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
 * This article is not NPOV imo and if it is true that the majority are PCI, then why not just call it that? I think we know the answer. Selfstudier (talk) 12:20, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Palestinian citizens of Israel or Palestinian Arab citizens of Israel or Palestinian Arabs in Israel or Palestinians in Israel, any of these would be better. Selfstudier (talk) 12:51, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
 * As for --> Palestinian identity in Israel proposed by yourself in 2021, the close states "there is a clear absence consensus for a move at this time" so no need to keep banging that drum. Selfstudier (talk) 12:58, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Oppose per all above, plus the article is by definition about Arab Citizens of Israel. Sir Joseph (talk) 19:34, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Identity
Number 57 commented above that "I don't think anyone would have a problem with an article on Palestinian identity in Israel". They must have forgotten the opposition to this exact proposal that they made 2.5 years ago (Talk:Palestinian citizens of Israel). Onceinawhile (talk) 14:34, 16 April 2024 (UTC)