Talk:Arameans in Israel

Fork
Arameans in Israel are no other than Maronites in Israel and Assyrians/Syriacs/Chaldeans in Israel. The possibility to claim an Aramean identity is mentioned in the article Maronites in Israel and should be mentioned in the other one too, but I do not see the need of creating this fork. I suggest a disamb page here. Shmayo (talk) 21:15, 18 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Not precise - the Maronites in Israel indeed largely overlap, but Aramean ethnicity is also given in Israel to Syrian Orthodox Christians. Assyrians on the other hand have a separate ethnic status from Arameans (including Maronites).GreyShark (dibra) 18:07, 24 January 2015 (UTC)
 * We are saying the exact same thing. Maronites and Syriac Orthodox Chirstians (i.e. Assyrian/Syriac people) are the ones that now can be registered as Arameans if they want, that doesn't mean another article is needed for "Arameans in Israel". As I said, this should be written in the articles that I first mentioned. How is it not a fork? Shmayo (talk) 02:12, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
 * As far as i understand, until October 2014, the adherents of the Maronite (some 7,000 people) and Syrian Orthodox Churches (some 500 people) were classified in Israel as Arabs (Arab Christians). However, the 1,000 strong community of ethnic Assyrians, adherents of the Nestorian Church, was long recognized as Assyrian and thus different from Arab Christians. Now with the change of registration, Syrian Orthodox, Maronites and few hundred other non-Assyrian and non-Armenian denominations who speak Aramaic and identify as such will be registered as Arameans.GreyShark (dibra) 16:26, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

Could you tell me where you have read that Jacobites and Nestorians are/were classified different (WP:NOR)? And even if that would be correct, this really doesn't mean that Maronites, Syrian-Orthodox Christians and the others will be classified as Arameans, those who want can now seek to be registered as Arameans, that is stated in the news articles, so I really don't understand why this article would include all of them. But most important, the Hebrew term isn't really relevant here on English Wikipedia. This article is nothing but a fork, Maronites in Israel and Assyrians/Syriacs/Chaldeans in Israel now have the rights to be registered as Arameans in Israel if they want too, which should be mentioned in those two articles, but this fork isn't necessary. I'm still for the disamb page. Shmayo (talk) 17:08, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Reagardless whether you are correct or not - i think it is an interesting question you are raising: how Israeli PIBA is defining Arameans and Assyrians. I'm 99% sure that Assyrian ethnicity has existed in Israel since long ago and it was applied to 1,000 people (Nestorians and maybe Chaldean Church adherents - all arrived to Nazareth, Jaffa and Jerusalem during the Hamidian massacres more than a century ago); "Arameans" on the other hand is now applied to local Christians in Israel with much deeper roots in the Levant. Let me try to find out from PIBA publications - maybe it will brighten the issue.GreyShark (dibra) 19:09, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Both of us were wright but not precise - the PIBA table of ethnicities recognized by Israel includes 135 nominations (from Hebrew overview article), including:
 * Assyrians (1,500 people belonging to Syrian Orthodox Church)
 * Armeanians (several thousands)
 * Arab Christians (127,000 - adherents of Orthodox Eastern, Latin, Melkite and Protestant Churches, and previously also Maronites and Syrian Catholic)
 * Arameans (from October 2014 - about 10,000 Maronite Church adherents and 500 Syrian Catholics)
 * I guess this makes it clear. Maybe we can merge Maronites in Israel and Arameans in Israel due to the dominance of the Maronites (though not entirely overlapping), but i would prefer Arameans in Israel as the remaining article, since this is the cited ethnicity, now recognized by Israel.GreyShark (dibra) 19:19, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

Thank you, interesting. According to the other articles Maronites (and others) have to seek to be registered as such. Then again, most important, the Hebrew terms or what is recognized is not relevant on English Wikipdia, especially therefore I'm for the disamb page. How is this article supposed to improve if we got another describing almost the exact same thing? I am willing to go with the merge if you don't think that a disamb page is good here, but I am not for the article remaining beacause of the reasons above, and even more after the numbers and statistics. Shmayo (talk) 13:17, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Please note the date that article was published, no one could be registered as Aramean in 2013. All articles regarding the new rights are saying one have to seek to be registered as Aramean, making the number 10.500 incorrect. But as I said before, all this is irrelevant to English Wikipedia, these groups already got their articles here on English Wikipedia per common name. I hope we can work on a merge together, if you still think that the disamb page doesn't fit here. Shmayo (talk) 15:54, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Most likely - we have to wait and see how many Maronites and Syriac Catholics register as Arameans. It could be that only 600 would do so, making it very low-importance. The CBS of Israel publish information on Christians once a year - let's wait and see.GreyShark (dibra) 19:58, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

But my main point is that it doesn't matter, this is English Wikipedia. If the information is incorrect, as we know now, we can't wait and see. We could wait before improving the "Maronites in Israel" article with a new section about it, but as long as this is a fork, and an incorrect one, it can't stay. I will revert back to the disamb version as it is pretty clear from this discussion that there is no need for this misleading fork. Shmayo (talk) 20:10, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Let's be clear on this: i don't think this is a WP:FORK, because both topics are notable. Maronites are one of the sub-groups recognized as part of Arameans in Israel group, together with Syrian Catholics and some other denominations. Maronites do make the majority of recognized Arameans in Israel (so far 600 at least are recognized), but that doesn't make those topics the same.GreyShark (dibra) 20:22, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Sounds like the disamb page fits perfect then. You are still missing my main point; on English Wikipedia we are not following what the Israeli, or any other, government has decided. Stop making new assumptions about the numbers, that is not what this is about. As I said, I will revert back to the disamb page, it's clear from above that this is very misleading. Shmayo (talk) 21:00, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Your argument that the article "just follows what the Israeli government says" is not true. And even if that were the case, it's not against Wikipedia's policy to present the point of view of a government with attribution and reliable sources. In this case the Israeli government simply recognized the request of a group of people who claim Aramean ancestry. Finally, you have to gain consensus BEFORE deleting sourced content or making big changes per WP:BRD.--Ashurbanippal (talk) 08:58, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Ashurbanippal, I ask you to read the discussion above, please. There are no 10.000 "Arameans in Israel". Maronites and some other now got the rights to be registered as Arameans, which is what the source says and I actually used it in the disamb page, have you read the news articles yourself? Do you agree that these "Arameans in Israel" are the same people named above? Of course you could present "the point of view of a government", which is what the disamb page did, but it shouldn't be presented in the way you want it to, beacause you said it yourself; that's POV. On English Wikipedia we follow common name, the Israeli government's decisions about which Hebrew term groups could be registered as is not determing what articles here on English Wikipedia should be called. If you insist on "Arameans in Israel" then you should ask for a move or merge on the current articles. Shmayo (talk) 10:25, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
 * This article focuses only on the group of some Israeli Syriac Christians (Assyrians, Maronites or Melkites) who consider themselves as ethnic Arameans. However not all Maronite or Assyrian Christians see themselves as ethnic Arameans. A disambiguation page would definitely not cover up all the content or represent this specific group and that means that we have to copy Israeli Aramean related topics everytime, e.g. to the "Assyrians in Israel" and "Maronites in Israel" articles and that would be a real fork, because it is the exact same content in several articles. We have a "Druze in Israel" article should this article also be merged with the "Arabs in Israel" article? BTW the "Maronites in Israel" article only has a small reference that Maronites are also allowed to be registered as Arameans without going further into detail and that is far away from being a fork.--TmG12 (talk) 14:00, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

@Shmayo You are the one who first removed the WHOLE article without a discussion and finding consensus and then complaining about edit wars? This article should stay like this before Shmayo did his first "edit" to it until the problem is solved!--TmG12 (talk) 14:27, 29 January 2015 (UTC)


 * I wrote my first post here a week before taking action. That is not the reason why I consider it a fork. I actually think that the "Maronites in Israel"-article should have a complete section about this, as I said to Greyshark but then as a merge of these to articles. You have no idea if any Assyrian actually has asked the Israeli government to be registered as such, but we know they have the right. There is no new ethnic group just because of that, it is just ridiculous in my opinion. Shmayo (talk) 16:41, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

Wrong disambig
As previously mentioned according to Israeli PIBA, the definition of Assyrians (Neo-Aramaic speaking adherents of Syrian Orthodox and Chaldean Catholic Chrusches) is different from Arameans (Aramaic-speaking Maronite Catholic, Syrian Catholic and Greek Orthodox adherents). To disambig from Arameans to Assyrians is therefore simply incorrect.GreyShark (dibra) 21:42, 14 February 2015 (UTC)
 * These assumptions (because that is what they are) about PIBA's definitions are still not relevant here. According to most of the articles Aramaic-speaking Christians have this right, making it possible to Syriac Orhodox people to seek to be registered as Arameans too. You know yourself that there are no 10.500 registered as Arameans, why do you still insist on this? True, this is mostly Maronites, and that's included in the disamb, I'm not saying all of them are Assyrians. Take a look at the discussion here. Shmayo (talk) 13:33, 15 February 2015 (UTC)
 * the sources are Hebrew overview article and i24 report (English). According to the latter - Israel is recognizing adherents of Maronite, Orthodox Aramaic, Syriac Catholic, Greek Orthodox or Greek Catholic Churches with Aramean tradition and language as "Arameans". By Orthodox Aramaic it seems they mean Jacobite Church of Antioch; Separately, Israeli Assyrians are adherents of the Assyrian Church of the East (Nestorian) and/or Chaldean Church.GreyShark (dibra) 18:38, 15 February 2015 (UTC)
 * New conclutions every time. And it for sure didn't say that all of those are now considered to be Aramean, but that they now have the right, if they want to, to seek to be registered as "Aramean". When are you actually going to comment the fact, which I've mentioned a couple of times above, that this isn't relevant to English Wikipedia? Shmayo (talk) 20:03, 15 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Listen, there is nothing new here and i don't know what is "conclutions".GreyShark (dibra) 17:14, 18 February 2015 (UTC)
 * The topic is clearly notable, because mention multiple times by numerous sources, including in English language:
 * February 2015 by Israel Today, JPost
 * On October 2014 by i24News
 * On September 2014 by TOI, Haaretz, JPost, Independent, Al-Arabiya
 * On 2013 by Al-Monitor
 * According to WP:Notable - this is certainly qualifying as English reliable sources from several dates use the term.GreyShark (dibra) 17:38, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

Obviously you're still missing my point. I'm not saying that the sources are not reliable and not in English, I used these sources myself in the disamb. What I am saying is that these people are nothing but Maronites in Israel and Assyrians/Syriacs/Chaldeans in Israel, just because these people now got the right to be registered as Arameans doesn't mean you have to make up some supposed ethnic group with a population of 10.500, a number made up by you. Besides these articles telling about the news about these new rights, these people are still more commonly know by the names mentioned above in English. Shmayo (talk) 21:12, 18 February 2015 (UTC)


 * There most certainly is, though up until recently it was 4:2:
 * Yes: Shmayo, RolandR, Penguins53, Middayexpress, and AcidSnow (me).
 * No: GreyShark09, Suryoyo124, and MaronitePride. AcidSnow (talk) 21:36, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
 * 4 against 3 is not a consensus to delete - this is pretty balanced and i think administrator action might be required.GreyShark (dibra) 22:38, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

Redirect to Christianity in Israel
Due to the choice of the term "Aramean", this article has been erroneously confused with the community of the same name who are commonly known as Assyrians, as demonstrated with sources at Assyrian people, however, it obviously refers to a minute number of Israeli Christians who have adopted this new ethnicity. The source that has been touting, Arameans in the Middle East and Israel indicates only 16 people have been registered as "Aramean" from January 2014 to February 2017, well below the proclaimed 15,000 people in the infobox. No sources have been provided to shed any further light in the intervening period between now and then, and much of the information available online relates to the historical Aramean people or the debate surrounding the creation of this new ethnicity in 2014, with no indication that there has been any significant increase in that number of people.

The source provided, and the only sourced material in this article, refer to the possibility of Israeli Arab Christians adopting this new ethnicity, and does not suggest it is an existing sizeable minority community in Israel. I have thus moved the sourced content in this article to Christianity in Israel as this evidently an issue of identity in the Israeli Arab Christian community, and is not an actual ethnic group. Mugsalot (talk) 23:54, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I fully protected the article for a week due to the minor edit war, from WP:RFPP. Please work it out here, with an RfC if needed. Any admin is welcome to remove the protection without consultation. Johnuniq (talk) 05:14, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 22 June 2020
Can the flag be removed by a picture of one of the churches. The Aramean flag is irrelevant in this article, a picture of the Aramean church would be better. Please add the next file:   MixedButHumann (talk) 12:08, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the template. &mdash; Martin (MSGJ · talk) 19:47, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

Content edit-warring
Users user:Mugsalot and user:Aram-Israel, please discuss the content and establish consensus by paragraph prior to changing the stable version - especially Mugsalot - do not be too hawkish here, the issue is sensitive and your opinion (trying to blank the page / merging it) should be balanced with others.GreyShark (dibra) 12:03, 3 September 2020 (UTC)
 * I would invite you to notice that has been blocked as a sockpuppet, and the only edit-warring has resulted as a result of your reverts. I have explained my edits, and you can see there is nothing that I have removed that should stay in the article. Mugsalot (talk) 11:37, 7 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your reply. This is all i needed.GreyShark (dibra) 11:12, 10 September 2020 (UTC)

Flag
I have pointed it out before; what is the relevance of the Aramean-Syriac flag in this article? The "Arameans in Israel" are mostly Maronites - do these even use this flag? It should be pointed out that the flag is mostly used by pro-Aramean organization (mostly in Europe) among Syriac Orthodox people. Regardsless, I do not think that the flag is relevant for this article in particular. Shmayo (talk) 13:20, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
 * I will go ahead and remove it from this article. Shmayo (talk) 15:12, 27 March 2021 (UTC)

Who (and how many) can be considered Aramean?
The article has sentences like "at that time an estimated 10,500 persons were eligible to receive Aramean ethnic status according to the new regulation"; however, "googling" the issue, many articles (example) give the impression that almost all Arabic-speaking Christians of Israel could choose to be registered as Arameasn. MiguelMadeira (talk) 23:35, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

Proposal to restructure article
I suggest that some paragraphs are removed and the article is restructured like below (see "Before" and "After" hide-show boxes). The four paragraphs under current history sections are being removed in new version: First is irrelevant (biblical), the second from a unreliable source, third and fourth on Syriac Christians in general (not really linked to "Arameans in Israel"). Thoughts? Shmayo (talk) 11:54, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

{{Show_hide_box|Before|

History
Abraham, the father of Western monotheism, was believed to be of Aramean ancestry. The Jews and Christians regard him as the Patriarch of the Jewish people. Abraham's son Isaac and grandson Jacob, also each took wives of Aramean descent: (respectively, Rebecca, and Leah and Rachel), who originated from the Aramean region of Paddan-Aram. The Aramean presence in Israel goes back to 1100 BCE, when much of Israel came under Aramean rule for eight years according to the Biblical Book of Judges, until Othniel defeated the forces led by Chushan-Rishathaim, the King of Aram-Naharaim.

After the Arameans converted to Syriac Christianity they became involved in the expansion of Christianity throughout the Middle-East, which resulted in various Syriac monasteries and churches being built especially in Jerusalem and Bethlehem of whom the Monastery of Saint Mark, Jerusalem among the oldest. According to a 6th-century inscription Inscription at the Monastery of St Mark's in Jerusalem found during a restoration in 1940, the church is on the ancient site of the house of Mary, mother of St. Mark the Evangelist (Acts 12:12) and the place of the Last Supper of Christ with His disciples. Some Christians believe that the Last Supper was held at the nearby Cenacle on Mount Zion.

Around 1831 large numbers of Syriac Christians started to emigrate to Israel as pilgrims and settled there, mostly originating from the Tur Abdin region. During the Seyfo: the genocide on Syriac Christians in the Ottoman Empire a large mass emigration occurred from Tur-Abdin. They mainly settled in Jerusalem, Bethlehem and in smaller numbers in Jericho and Nazareth. In Bethlehem they also constructed the Virgin Mary church between 1922 and 1928 in the Syriac Quarter.

The 1922 census of Palestine lists 813 Syrian Orthodox (2 in Southern, 784 in Jerusalem-Jaffa, 4 in Samaria, and 23 in Northern) and 323 Syrian Catholic (10 in Southern, 189 in Jerusalem-Jaffa, 14 in Samaria, and 110 in Northern) Christians in Mandatory Palestine. The 1922 census also lists 422 Syriac language speakers (all in Jerusalem-Jaffa), including 408 in municipal areas (38 in Jerusalem, 369 in Bethlehem, 25 in Acre, and 1 in Beit Jala).

Demographics
In July 2016, an article in the Ha'aretz estimated the number of Israeli Christians eligible to register as Arameans in Israel to be 13,000. In October 2019, the Israeli Christian Aramaic Organization estimated the number of Israeli citizens, who are eligible to obtain Aramean affiliation at 15,000.

According to a 2022 article in Middle Eastern Studies, no less than 2,500 Israelis are known to have registered as Arameans at the Israeli Ministry of Interior, whereas another 2,000 are known to have applied for changing their national denomination from Arab to Aramean. These 4,500 people in total constitute c. 1,5% of Israel's Christian population.

Legal recognition
In September 2014, Minister of the Interior Gideon Sa'ar instructed the PIBA to recognise Arameans as an ethnicity separate from Israeli Arabs. Under the Ministry of the Interior's guidance, people born into Christian families or clans who have either Aramaic or Maronite cultural heritage within their family are eligible to register as Arameans. About 200 Christian families were thought to be eligible prior to this decision. According to an August 9, 2013 Israel Hayom article, at that time an estimated 10,500 persons were eligible to receive Aramean ethnic status according to the new regulation, including 10,000 Maronites (which included 2,000 former SLA members) and 500 Syriac Catholics.

The first person to receive the "Aramean" ethnic status in Israel was 2 year old Yaakov Halul in Jish on October 20, 2014.

In 2019, an Israeli court ruled that Aramean minorities could choose a Jewish or Arab education, rather than requiring children with Aramean identity to be automatically enrolled in Arabic-language schools.

Controversy
The recognition of the Aramean ethnicity caused mixed reactions among Israeli minorities, the Christian community, and among the general Arab Israeli population. Representatives of the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Jerusalem denounced the move.

Mordechai Kedar advocates the recognition of the Aramean identity and calls on the government of Israel to promote the awareness regarding this issue on the basis of the international principle of ethnic self-determination as espoused by Wilson's 14 points. One of the supporters of the recognition of the Aramean identity is Gabriel Naddaf, who is a priest to the Greek Orthodox Christians in Israel. He advocated on behalf of his Aramean followers and thanked the Interior Ministry's decision as a "historic move". }}

{{Show_hide_box|After|

Legal recognition in Isreal
In September 2014, Minister of the Interior Gideon Sa'ar instructed the PIBA to recognise Arameans as an ethnicity separate from Israeli Arabs. Under the Ministry of the Interior's guidance, people born into Christian families or clans who have either Aramaic or Maronite cultural heritage within their family are eligible to register as Arameans. About 200 Christian families were thought to be eligible prior to this decision. According to an August 9, 2013 Israel Hayom article, at that time an estimated 10,500 persons were eligible to receive Aramean ethnic status according to the new regulation, including 10,000 Maronites (which included 2,000 former SLA members) and 500 Syriac Catholics.

The first person to receive the "Aramean" ethnic status in Israel was 2 year old Yaakov Halul in Jish on October 20, 2014.

In 2019, an Israeli court ruled that Aramean minorities could choose a Jewish or Arab education, rather than requiring children with Aramean identity to be automatically enrolled in Arabic-language schools.

Controversy
The recognition of the Aramean ethnicity caused mixed reactions among Israeli minorities, the Christian community, and among the general Arab Israeli population. Representatives of the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Jerusalem denounced the move.

Mordechai Kedar advocates the recognition of the Aramean identity and calls on the government of Israel to promote the awareness regarding this issue on the basis of the international principle of ethnic self-determination as espoused by Wilson's 14 points. One of the supporters of the recognition of the Aramean identity is Gabriel Naddaf, who is a priest to the Greek Orthodox Christians in Israel. He advocated on behalf of his Aramean followers and thanked the Interior Ministry's decision as a "historic move".

Demographics
In July 2016, an article in the Ha'aretz estimated the number of Israeli Christians eligible to register as Arameans in Israel to be 13,000. In October 2019, the Israeli Christian Aramaic Organization estimated the number of Israeli citizens, who are eligible to obtain Aramean affiliation at 15,000.

According to a 2022 article in Middle Eastern Studies, no less than 2,500 Israelis are known to have registered as Arameans at the Israeli Ministry of Interior, whereas another 2,000 are known to have applied for changing their national denomination from Arab to Aramean. These 4,500 people in total constitute c. 1,5% of Israel's Christian population.

}} Shmayo (talk) 11:54, 19 February 2024 (UTC)