Talk:Arbëreshë people

Comments
Ahhh, that "religion of peace." Yep, mighty peaceful when those not submitting to the Islamic horde are murdered. The dead don't make any noise.
 * Beyond the fact that there is nothing on this page remotely related to this comment, it shows an alarming avoidance of historical fact. BigHaz 22:31, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Urgency
Hackers have attacked one of the popular websites of the Arbëreshë community [www.jemi.it]. They pretend to have done this for the sake of Brazil, but the Albanians have nothing against Brazil; they rather respect and admire it as they have a part of their body there (immigrants). These hackers are actually trying to incriminate Brazil, but this shall not affect Albanians' attitude.

Please do something to fix this important website.--Albanian since Stone Age 04:21, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I'd say that the very existence of our nation of Arbereshe speaks volumes about Islamic history!

Arbëreshë
I want to know How many Arbëreshë are living today in America and think of themsleves as Italians.
 * I will answer you with the reality in Argentina. Between the late 19th. century and the early years of the 20th. century the major influx of Southern Italians took place. The majority chose two main suburban destinantions in the outer Buenos Aires: the south and the west. In the western suburban area, there is a neighbourhood called "Ciudadela" which was formed by three main ethnic groups: Southern Italians, Polish Jews and Syrian Arabs. Regarding the southern Italians in Ciudadela there were two people who were the majority: Abruzzians and Arbereshe. Although their distinct idioms and culture both of them were fully regarded as "Italians" for the Argentine society. The Arbereshe in Argentina have been especially proud of being "Italians". Although they had a different culture regarding their Balcanic origin (not to be confused with modern Albanians) and Arbereshe language, they fully integrated to the Italo-Argentine comunity. They took part in every Italo-Argentine association (cultural, health, academical) fully as Italians. Such was the identification with Italy, that as a matter of fact most third generations Arbereshe-born in Argentina may be biligual in Spanish and Italian, but Arbereshe language is virtually lost. Instead, you may still find families who have a strong Arbereshe concience but identify themselves as Argentines of Italian descent. They keep their Arbereshe pride, but are very carefull so as not to be regarded as "Albanians", whom they see no kinship at all. The "Albanian" community in Argentina is virtually non-existant besides the Albanian embassy personel.Periptero (talk) 00:36, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

6000 dead for not converting?
Source needed. Ali Pasha was brutal but really into religion. 6000 seems like a large number anyway —Preceding unsigned comment added by Keep it Fake (talk • contribs) 12:16, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

True, many things about Ali Pasha are only rumors, he was cruel but many leaders of his time were also, after all he did rule during Napoleonic wars when many parts of Europe were battlefields, he didnt only fight against christians but even against muslims or anyone who opposed him, in the end he redeemed himself by fighting the Ottoman empire. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.229.104.83 (talk) 23:24, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

source please
 perhaps unsurprisingly, their language has been influenced more by Italian and Greek than has other Albanian dialects. --Albanau 14:26, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Arbërisht
I do not speak Albanian but it seems to me that the name of the language is Arbërisht and not Arbëresh. In that case, there an effort should be made to proper disambiguate this from Arvanitika spoken in Greece, or ot merge the two articles (if they are to be considered to describe dialects of the same language). Andreas (T) 01:27, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Cuisine
I think we need to get some articles made about the Arbëreshë food. The pictures are good but its offsetting the alingment of the gallery near the bottom. - Gennarous (talk) 16:26, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

More to do
There are more to do, but a have little spare time. Any help would be more than welcomed Aigest (talk) 14:47, 17 September 2009 (UTC) As soon as possible.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 15:55, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

Arbereshe
There is a wrong position sponsored by Albanians by trying to place the Arbereshe within the modern Albanian nation. The Arbereshe that arrived in Italy were former Byzantine population, both culturally and in terms of religion, although some Arbereshe were Latin-rite catholics. The modern "Albanian" conception was alien to them. Since for the western world the Byzantines were regarded wrongly as Greeks, this is the reason why Arbereshe were labelled as "Greeks" (Greci) when they installed in Southern Italy. This categorization was kept up to the late 20's when Mussolini's expansionist visions towards both Albania and Greece, made Arbereshe to be "Albanians", up to changing the medieval names for villages and churches ("Piana dei Albanesi" was in fact "Piana dei Greci"). Arbereshe consider themselves Arbereshe, not Albanians ("Albanesi" in Italian). Arbereshe feel no connection to Shqiptars and Kosovars at all. Their only link with modern Albania is geographical since their original motherland lies within present boundaries of the newly formed Albanian state. Arbereshe regard themselves as the descendants of Ancient Pelasgians, and the remnants of Scanderbeg's armies. They do not even share official Albanian hypothesis of their supposed ethnogenesis. In fact, many Arbereshe were among the most vehement against Albanian immigration in the early 90's. Modern Albanians are considered by Arbereshe as the result of the ammalgamation with Turks, Gypsies and Slavs.Periptero (talk) 18:45, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Periptero stick to the sources and please start reading wp:or. -- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 23:58, 28 September 2010 (UTC)


 * It's a situation similar to the Arvanites, who do not consider themselves as Albanians. I propose we modify the intro to something similar to that found in Arvanites. Athenean (talk) 00:13, 29 September 2010 (UTC)


 * ZjarriRrethues which are the sources that you have used in the Arbereshe article that show an "Albanian" connection? You have been trying to place all sort of dubious cites so as to imply a broad group of people (Arbershe, Souliotes, Arvanites) to be identified simply as Albanians, not matter that these peoples openly expressed against this sort of identification. Why not paying a visit to the Arbereshe villages? Please go to Chieuti and tell them you are a Shqip and call them "cousins" and wait for their answer. Ne kemi asgjë të përbashkët. Ju jeni shqiptarë dhe ne jemi të pista Arbëreshë lavdishme. You may show your chauvinistc point of view apostolizing the Albanian official story, and you will always find myself seeking for the truth to be told. I agree with user Athenean regarding the modifications. Periptero (talk) 00:50, 29 September 2010 (UTC).


 * Periptero, you may want to know that the Albanian National Awakening was started by the Arbereshe. It was through the writings of Jeronim De Rada especially Canti di Milosao (also called Canti Albanesi written in both Albanian and Italian and published in Italy in 1836 (Mussolini's father probably wasn't born at that time)) that the Albanian culture started to be affirmed. And please remove parts of your prior edits: it is containing obscenities in Albanian. I have spoken to many Arbereshe and their language is proto-Albanian, but I can understand it pretty well. --  S ulmues (talk) 04:04, 29 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Sulmues, Arbereshe were always proud of being the original Albanians, and I agree that they are the ones who kept true "albanianess" alive. But the fact that the "Rilindas" took many of these thoughts in the early 20th. century so as to give birth to the modern Shqip identity, does not mean that there is continuity between both movements. Canti di Milosao refers to the fifteenth-century !!! There relies our pride, not in being the succesors of Turkish vassals. The Albanian awakening sponsored by the Arbereshe is based upon the belief that we Arbereshe are the true Albanians and followers of Skenderbey's spirit; therefore the necessity of not falling into assimilation so as not to dissapear or follow the fate of most Shqips who lost their Christian faith, since they mostly fell into Islamization and Turkification (or Ottomanization if you prefer), a fact that Arbereshe reject and repulse. Arebershe are proud to be pure Albanians, and Christians. There is no link on to the establishment of modern Albania as a sovereign nation, based upon prior Muslim pashaliks in the Arbereshe awakening. There is no link neither with Hoxha's official Albanian story. The phrase I wrote did not mean to offend, it was just a response to the "Jemi të gjithë Kushërinj edhe Gjaku jin i shprishur, ma na jemi arbëreshët e ata janë shkjiptarët" one, which is pure propaganda, and untrue. I do not mean to offend anywone, but just understand this feeling: Arbereshe are true Albanians, Shqips are something else. Periptero (talk) 01:04, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

(unindent)Athenean that Arbereshe are actually the extreme opposite of the Arvanites meaning that they do preserve their language, they were amongst the most prominent activists of the Albanian National Awakening. I'll add the sources and please Periptero don't make comments like that in Albanian. Btw enough said -- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 08:22, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

Map
The map from the 19th century is incorrect, as it shows the Griko communities of Bovesia and Grecia Salentina as "Albaner". Yet, as this article makes clear, the only Arberesh communities in Calabria are to be found in the Province of Cosenza, Province of Catanzaro and Province of Crotone. There is not mention of Arberesh in the Province of Reggio di Calabria. And we know that at the southern top of this province, in the commune of Bovesia, there is a Griko speaking community. Yet on the map, that community is incorrectly shown as "Albaner". Same for Apulia: While the Arberesh in Apulia are to be found in the Province of Foggia and the Province of Taranto, the map shows "Albaner" in the area of Salento, at the southern tip of the "heel". Yet, precisely in that area shown in the map as "Albaner" lies the Griko speaking community of Grecia Salentina, while there is no mention anywhere of any Arberesh in that area. The map thus completely contradicts the text of the article, and is just plain wrong, conflating Griko-speaking communities as Arberesh, even though the two are completely distinct. Given that the map is extremely old (1850s), that is perhaps not surprising. The ethnic labels used then were very different from now, and perceptions of ethnicity and terminology have changed dramatically. What may have been cutting edge in the 1850s is archaic, outdated and anachronistic today. Such a map may well belong in a museum, but not here. Athenean (talk) 23:02, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I understand your concern but we have been through this in the case of presence of Albanians map, while Zjarri used your arguments(the map is not correct because Albanians ......) what you need is a source claiming that the map is wrong not your interpretation. Hope you understand my concern, we don't want to use double standards, it's like pouring fuel to the fire given the background of such disputes. Aigest (talk) 07:45, 22 December 2010 (UTC)


 * I have absolutely no idea what double standards you are talking about, but I have to say that this is the first time in 3 years that I hear that I need a source in order to remove something. Sources are needed for adding material, not removing it. Asking for a source in order to remove something makes no sense whatsoever. Now then, because from past experience I know expect this discussion will likely lead nowhere, I will ask for an RfC on the matter if you don't mind. Athenean (talk) 00:49, 24 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Maybe this link will refresh your memory. You brought a same situation to WP:RSN three months ago. User:Zjarri used your kind of arguments (map is obviously wrong because numbers, locations ....) while you brought up the WP:RS issue of the author. The consensus there was that the author was WP:RS and that map was ok, regardless of numbers and arguments used by Zjarri. That was the first standard and it was ok for everybody. Now you are in the same position of user:Zjarri using the same kind of arguments (map is obviously wrong because ........). I was just reminding you that this was a double standard behavior and would bring to multiple issues in the future if applied, thus I asked for "a source claiming that the map is wrong not your interpretation". Is that clear enough? Aigest (talk) 11:02, 24 December 2010 (UTC)


 * There is a key difference though: The map I was claiming was RS was not from 1859. Anyway, I will post at WP:RSN and see what happens. Athenean (talk) 17:45, 24 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Yep, the map from the 19th century is uncorrect, it makes a lot of confusion between Albaner and Greek in Grecia Salentina (Lecce, Puglia) and Bovesia (Reggio Calabria, Calabria). Grecia Salentina and Bovesia are of Greek heritage. --Prodebugger (talk) 21:27, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

Arbereshe not Albanians
Here is a clear source about the differences between Arbereshe and Albanians. As a conclusion I quote what Arbereshe from Molise feel: "...Loro si appellano Arbrèsh e con gli albanesi attuali non hanno nulla a che fare..." (Arberesh with the present Albanians there is no match); "... sono musulmani ed ex-comunisti, noi cattolici, di rito greco ..."(Albanians are muslims and former communists meanwhile we are Greek rite catholics); "... tra noi, oggi, c’è anche chi si vergogna di passare per un albanese ..." (for us today, it is shame to be mistaken with an Albanian).Periptero (talk) 02:32, 23 July 2011 (UTC)


 * I invite you to read What Wikipedia is not before making further edits. After that you will understand that your comment above belongs to forums not to wikipedia. P.S. To help you with that I may say that the source could not be seen as WP:RS, it is obviously not WP:NPOV (assuming all Albanians as muslims and communists should show you also how ridiculously is the logic used by author of that phrase) and I might add that the last part is translated wrongly. I does not state that "for us today, it is shame to be mistaken with an Albanian", but "between us there is also (someone) who feel ashamed for being recognized as an Albanian". The first translation shows that all community is ashamed, while in the exact translation that is someone (c’è anche chi) in the community who feels so, and that is a great difference. Try to not misinterpret the sources in the future, especially when you are not familiar with the original language. Anyway this was just for showing you how to interpret and cite correctly the "supposed" sources, I don't want to engage in forum style debates. Aigest (talk) 07:52, 23 July 2011 (UTC)


 * First, I did not edit the article but placed the info here. Thank you for the interpretation tutorial about the source (which is not "supposed" but true) but I am familiar with the language: I have not done a semantical interpretation, just translated some notes following previous threads and discussion. Read the whole link and submitt it to others and you will find that the substractum shows that Arbereshe do not feel Albanians whatsoever (con gli albanesi attuali non hanno nulla a che fare). The fact of labelling modern Albanians as Muslims and former communists is not just ridiculous but a basic reductionism. This primitive reductionism is the simple form that ordinary people use to differentiate themselves from others. Although for academically qualified persons this is nonsence, it is just the position that the Molisan community has taken no matter you like or not.   Anyway, regarding what "Wikipedia is not", following this guidelines why are there a series of statements that aren't even sourced that claim for an affiliation Arbereshe do not feel (" ... but there is still a sense of familiarity between them who refer to each other as ... We are all one people, our blood spread ... ") and have not been removed? I hope that as you seem to be a Wikipedia Spirit Guardian you deal these matters with the same zeal.- Periptero (talk) 13:17, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
 * A blog post doesn't represent any collective or academic view regardless of its misrepresentation. Btw I suggest you attend easter mass in Piana degli Albanesi just for the experience. The article is already sourced regarding the collective identity etc.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 13:32, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
 * The source is not a blog, it's a well-kown and pluri-awarded Italian magazine called Diario. I'm an Arberesh, and i must admit that Periptero is right: Italian Arberesh are not Albanians and they don't feel themselves as modern Albanians or Shqiptar. --Prodebugger (talk) 14:05, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
 * It's someone's post on an independent blog/site so please stick to the sources. AFAIK you're an internet user, to whom I suggested not to misrepresent sources when claiming that one of the most notable Arberesh isn't even Arbereshe but an Italian of Spanish origin. Identity claims by internet users aren't sources. Btw my Italian is good enough to be able to read your discussions on the Italian wikipedia with actual Arbëreshë and the various epithets you've used to label them.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 14:49, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
 * No, it's not someone post in a blog, it's a Diario magazine article dated 2001 (Diario (magazine)). You're telling us that your Italian isn't good enough, as a matter of fact you are completely misunderstanding my comments in Italian wikipedia. Btw, your comment is a personal attack. Please, read this: No personal attacks. I won't accept any other personal attack, so comment on content, not on the contributor. --Prodebugger (talk) 15:09, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

from albania to italy
to my knowledge, they came to epirus and macedonia and shkodra from sicily, where they came from caucasian albania79.125.225.208 (talk) 16:46, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

Arbëreshë people in America
I am Arbëresh and living in America. I was born and raised here but my family is from southern Italy (and are Arbëreshë) and immigrated here. I consider myself Arbëresh and Italian. Most Americans have no idea who the Arbëreshë people are so it's much easier for me to identify as Italian. I'm proud to be Italian and I'm proud to be Arbëresh. As far as identifying as Albanian, I don't and neither does my family. 75.18.38.191 (talk) 06:07, 19 February 2012 (UTC)Leila

Calabrian Arbereshe Y Chromosomes
Dienekes' Anthropology, Y chromosomes of Arbereshe from Calabria.--Z oupan 18:01, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

Muslim minorities
There aren't Muslim minorities in the Arbereshe communities. Read their history, please. Don't manipulate the historical truth. Arbereshe are Christian people (Orthodox Christianity) escaped from Balkans during the Ottoman invasion. How can exist Muslim minorities in their communities? --Prodebugger (talk) 10:16, 25 December 2012 (UTC)

Religion is not limited to ethnicity. "How can they be Muslim?" Many have converted to Islam over the years — Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.237.22.166 (talk) 13:33, 29 May 2017 (UTC)

Arbëreshë numbers
If I see, the number of Arbëreshë people set into the info-box was incorrect, including descendants of hundreds of thousands Italians, who haven'n any sentiments neither to Albania, nor to the Albanians. Please, provide reliable sources confirming the persense of these numbers. Also, do not delete reliable academic sources. Thank you. Jingiby (talk) 13:02, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

albanian pov
this article is obviously heavily edited by albanians to match their nationalistic rhetoric. arbereshe are southern italians, they have been so by half a millennium and the absolute majority of them consider themselves as such; until the 20th century they had zero link to albania or modern albanians. in their folk songs they never mention albania\shqiperia but they lament the loss of their true homeland : morea.

the greater majority of albanians\kosovar that where sent to arberesh villages during the ninties, thinking to ease their integration, left very soon after it became clear that their only similarity ended to the language; orthox christianity being the central pillar of the arbereshe identity.

lastly pope albani doesn't belong to the arberesh since he descended from a catholic albanian settled in northern italy; contrary to the orthodox albanians who escaped to southern italy and where granted land that enabled them to maintain the language catholic albanians to northern italy where quickly assimilated.

ps: no sources of giorgio basta being an arberesh, he need to be removed together with clement xi. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.50.55.115 (talk) 11:03, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

There are many myths there, and it takes some reading to find the true history. Read Ardian Muhaj "Le origini economiche e demograﬁche dell’insediamento degli arbëreshë in Italia. Dal medioevo alla prima età moderna", Basiliscos, Rivista specialistica annuale dell’ Istituto di Studi Storici per la Basilicata Meridionale, 3 (2016), pp. 21-35.

Arbereshe origin
According to this article the Arbeshe fled Albania in the 15th century.In the Arberesh language page it is stated that Arberesh derived from Arvanitika in Greece.If that is so,how come the Arbereshe people originated from what is modern-day Albania and not Greece?


 * They don't originate from modern Albania.Ardian Muhaj "Le origini economiche e demograﬁche dell’insediamento degli arbëreshë in Italia. Dal medioevo alla prima età moderna", Basiliscos, Rivista specialistica annuale dell’ Istituto di Studi Storici per la Basilicata Meridionale, 3 (2016), pp. 21-35. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.74.12.41 (talk) 19:34, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

Shqiptalians
are also called the Italian-Arbëreshë people — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.84.215.13 (talk) 08:32, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

Arbëreshë / Arvanites / Albanian
User has made a some edits to pages about Arbëreshë people that I find questionable. In order to collect the discussion in one place, and in the hope of getting the attention of other editors, I raise the question here.

The user has been changing the ethnicity field in the infobox of the articles Giuseppe Schirò and Gabriele Dara from Arbëreshë to Albanian. I reverted both edits, hoping for a discussion according to the WP:BRD principle, but the user has chosen to resolve to edit war, giving edit summaries like "arbereshe are not an ethnic group,but part of the ethnic+linguistic albanian community in italy" and "ethnic and lingusitic community of albanian ethnicity". I am at a loss to understand how an ethnic community can be "not an ethnic group" or how a distinct ethnic community can be of another ethnicity.

The user has also made an edit to this article, changing the description of Arvanites in Greece from "a bilingual community" to "an Albanian community". This is not in itself a very serious POV edit, but I find the former expression much more informative for the casual reader, so I have reverted this edit, too.

Taken in connection, I feel there is a POV-pattern of trying to deny the existence of separate Arbëreshë and Arvanite ethnicities. I challenge Rolandi+ to self revert their warlike edits and take part in this discussion instead, and I hope for input from other editors. Regards! --T*U (talk) 14:36, 24 September 2015 (UTC)


 * First of all Arvanites aren't bilingual.Greeks in Albania aren't called "bilingual",Japanese in South Korea aren't called "bilingual".Secondly don't try being ridiculous as I am not edit waring.Thirdly,the article about Arbereshe says:"The Arbëreshë are an ethnic and linguistic ALBANIAN  minority community living in southern Italy".They are an Albanian community,they have Albanian ethnicity and thay have contribute to the Albanian "Rilindja Kombetare"(the Albanian national movement.So stop with your own illusions.Rolandi+ (talk) 13:25, 25 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Er,, do you actually understand what 'bilingual' means? If you are of a particular ethnic group and speak that language in country where the official (per the nation-state's constitution) or unofficial (i.e., Australian English) language is other than the individual's or community's native language, that makes them 'bilingual'. Which part of bi = 2 + lingual = language are you having difficulties in comprehending? As for your construct for Arbëreshë people, that's known as WP:SYNTH in order to promote your personal agenda. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 22:06, 26 September 2015 (UTC)


 * , is it that you confuse "ethnic group" with "origin" or "ancestry"? I can recommend the article Ethnic group in order to learn about the difference. After having read that, could you please answer the following two questions: 1) Are Arbëreshë an ethnic group? 2) Are Arvanites an ethnic group?. Thank you. --T*U (talk) 20:28, 27 September 2015 (UTC)


 * There has for more than two weeks been no more attempts to explain the idea that Arbëreshë is not an ethnic group. Given the large number of other people described as ethnic Arbëreshë and the numerous mentions of Arbëreshë literature, Arbëreshë culture etc. etc., I find the idea rather absurd. Therefore I revert the edits to Giuseppe Schirò and Gabriele Dara and give them back their Arbëreshë ethnicity. Any attempt to change it will have to be made through creating a consensus in the talk pages. --T*U (talk) 18:44, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

Valentino?
Valentino is listed as being someone of Italo-Albanian descent, but his Wiki bio makes no mention of this (though it does point out that his mother was French). A quick Google search didn't seem to turn anything up. Some source or other such evidence would be in order, no? Mpaniello (talk) 00:06, 27 October 2018 (UTC)