Talk:Arbroath/Archive 1

Military
I'm not convinced that Buccaneers were stationed at Arbroath during the base's time as an RNAS: I haven't found any corroborating information and the runways don't look appear long enough to have been used by jet aircraft of this type. Anyone know any more? 66.134.170.155 (talk) 13:34, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Overhaul
Completely overhauled, with added local knowledge as a native Arbroathian : ) --Air 15:33, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * some arguably tedious items excised from the Britannica entry, in the interests of readability. It can be re-added from page history should anyone care when the parish church's spire was renewed, for example
 * most details of the abbey were removed and merged into the dedicated Abbey entry
 * effort has been made to add/include as much appropriate local Scots as possible (kirk, drooth, fit i'the toon etc.)
 * new info on smokie, pageant, seafest, etc.
 * named the Drosten Stone
 * candidates for dedicated entries: Auchmithie, Arbroath Smokie, St Vigeans, Carmyllie
 * sections and categories

Great Job! I've been avoiding it for three years, so I'm glad that you've risen to the challenge. Thank you. -- Derek Ross | Talk 00:37, 2004 Oct 20 (UTC)

Red Lichtie
An inhabitant of Arbroath is called a "Red Lichtie". I am fairly sure that this is a reference to the Bell Rock light which flashed alternately red and white for many years. Can anyone confirm this ? -- Derek Ross | Talk 08:15, 2004 Dec 17 (UTC)
 * Yep, particularly applicable to Arbroath FC (i.e. the Red Lichties). I'll ask around when I go home for Xmas. --Air 14:33, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * Scots speakers say "Reid Lichtie" but we don't want that here do we? 84.135.242.133 10:21, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Hmm, red or reid - both good Scots words but if there is a consensus I would be glad to know about it! Anyway, red lichtie has referred to a native or inhabitant of Arbroath since late 19th century; the use Red Lichties has been taken on by the football club since approx 1970s. Hopefully not reid meaning the fourth stomach of a ruminant. → friedfish 12:07, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

The Shoppie website & forum
Arbroaths best website & forum is currently running with 388 members and the more the merrier, topics range from the present , past , local issues , photo gallery , theatre information , so welcome in !!

Copyedits/style
I have several copyedits to bring this article in line with the Manual of Style, some of which I had made previously, but had been reverted. Here is why I have made some of the them: I trust that these edits that are consistent with the Manual of Style will not be blindly reverted. Ground Zero | t 13:33, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
 * per Manual_of_Style_%28dates_and_numbers%29, "Whole numbers from zero to ten should be spelled out as words in the body of an article. Use numerals in tables and infoboxes."
 * per WP:CONTEXT, "In general, do not create links to plain English words." In this case, 'schools', 'college', 'pond', 'students' and 'population' are widely understood words that need no links.
 * "It's" = "it is". When you want the possessive form of "it", use "its".
 * "HND" is meaningless to readers outside of the UK, and HND is a redirect page. I have replaced it by "Higher National Diploma (HND)".
 * The same goes for "GNER", which I have changed to "Great North Eastern Railway (GNER)".
 * the Declaration of Independence page is a list of declarations of independence around the world. I have changed the link to the one in question here.
 * King James VI redirects to James I of England, so I have fixed the link to that, but kept "King James VI" in the text.
 * The article for Sir Walter Scott is found at Walter Scott, so I have fixed the link accordingly.
 * Perth is a list of articles about Perths around the world. I have changed the link to Perth, Scotland.
 * I have removed one or two repeated links, e.g., to "secondary school" per WP:LINK.


 * Looks fine to me. These links were originally direct ones for the most part. It's just that the other articles have been moved since the links were made. The people who moved them should have fixed the redirects when they did the moves but that is too much trouble for a lot of people. -- Derek Ross | Talk 15:09, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Football
This section says arbroath only has one team, maybe this should be changed to say one professional/part time team, or whatever there current position is, aswell as say there are many smaller teams like arbroath vics, the article is a bit murky.

Also, maybe a link to the aberdeen bon accord page, and let people know they were originally a cricket team, this would put things into context

Alan200305 10:40, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Some ideas for expansion

 * Do any of the areas in this map need elaboration or contribute to the history?
 * Also, what are the main streets in Arbroath? Are any of them notable or famous, or do any contain very specific links to Arbroath's medieval history?
 * What's the town's area (I calculate 3 square miles approximately, but this would need sourcing)
 * Railway link from Dundee to Arbroath in 1838 - what was its role, when was its demise and what caused it? what is its role today? (modified Orderinchaos78)

Orderinchaos78 03:02, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

It's possible to add a great deal on the local history of the areas in the map. In fact Arbroath public library has a couple of books published in the late 19th/early 20th century by the long-since gone Arbroath Guide which give more details than most people want to know. These are still part of the general lending stock and could certainly be used to bulk up he article. More recently a book was published by the local publisher (the Herald Press) on Street Names in Arbroath which gave dates and origins for most of the streets in the town and could likewise be used as a source book for the article.

As for the 1838 rail link, it's still alive and kicking, forming an indispensable part of the modern mainline east coast route linking Aberdeen to Edinburgh. Rumours of its demise are very much exaggerated. -- Derek Ross | Talk 05:48, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Blame my above comment on a complete lack of local knowledge. I'm from the other side of the Irish Sea originally. :) Orderinchaos78 15:58, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

GA?
I notice this article has been through PR and FAC. This article looks ready (or near ready) for GA status. Has anybody considered taking this forwards? The WP:UKTOWNS guideline may point out where there are gaps in material first though. -- Jza84 · (talk) 01:46, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree, it may have failed FAC but it should by the looks of things easily be eligible for GA.--h i s  s p a c e   r e s e a r c h 19:17, 17 February 2008 (UTC)


 * There's something wrong with the formatting of the article. A "military" section appears below the references, while the panorama has been exploded to near Biblical proportions! I can't work out what's gone wrong, but these would be a barrier to GA! hehe! --Jza84 | Talk  02:09, 10 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I was able to fix both of these items. Thanks for the headsup. Hadrianheugh (talk) 03:58, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Still doesn't seem quite right yet, HH. -- Derek Ross | Talk 04:22, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Derek, do you mean with regard to the panorama or placement of "Military" section? Hadrianheugh (talk) 14:20, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm talking about the ref tag at the end of the culture section. It doesn't work since its "/" was shifted to the beginning. I didn't want to change it myself cos I thought you were still working on the article. -- Derek Ross | Talk 15:23, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Derek, thanks for the direction. I couldnt get the old link to work even by removing the errant stroke. I couldnt see its original citing in the article, but I found a new on line source, so its working now. If anyone wants to further tidy the cite caption or format, have at it. best regards. Hadrianheugh (talk) 18:37, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Excellent! -- Derek Ross | Talk 19:37, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

History
As it stands, the article is a little poor.

"Arbroath, like nearby Dundee, was first settled 3500 years ago by the Picts, and was known by the name Aberbrothock, a reference to the Brothock Burn which runs through the town."

There is nearby archaeology that takes settlement of the area back a further 2,000 years. We don't know what it was called in 1500 BC, but whoever lived there at the time were not known as Picts. Catfish Jim and the soapdish (talk) 14:46, 10 December 2008 (UTC)


 * The Picts never described themselves as such, so what you say is true. However I thought that the archaeology showed that the same culture was in place throughout the 1,500 years before the Romans showed up and started calling them Picts. I don't see a big problem with extending the name backwards a few years from the Roman arrival. Of course 1,500 is rather more than a few years, so I take your point. As for the settlements in 3000 BC and earlier, we can certainly mention them. Are you thinking about the places that were found as a result of the work on the Dundee road a few years ago? -- Derek Ross | Talk 15:48, 10 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Hi Derek, I was thinking primarily about the Neolithic enclosures at Douglasmuir:


 * http://ads.ahds.ac.uk/catalogue/adsdata/PSAS_2002/pdf/vol_125/125_029_067.pdf


 * I touched a little on early history of the area in the Carnoustie article. That could probably be adapted for use in this page, and expanded into a more detailed article on Prehistoric Angus.


 * The first documentary evidence for a people called 'Picts' is from 297 AD. Before that, the people of that area were refered to as 'Caledonians' (by Tacitus) or Taexali/Vacomagi (by Ptolemy). I think a more generalised reference to 'Bronze Age' settlements would be in order for the archaeology from 1500BC. I'd be happy to play about with the history section, if nobody objects. Catfish Jim and the soapdish (talk) 16:30, 10 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Okay, thanks for the clarification. I wasn't aware of the Douglasmuir site at all. That certainly pushes things back in time by quite a bit! I also like your idea for a Prehistoric Angus article. However it made me think that you or I should probably add a History of Angus article (or at the least a History section to the Angus article first. In the meantime I doubt that anyone will object if you decide to work on the History section of the Arbroath article. In fact you've done such a good job on the Carnoustie article that most of us will give a cheer that you've decided to improve another one. Cheers -- Derek Ross | Talk 18:58, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

I've made a start on it, and will add detail bit by bit to flesh it out. It could do with some photos to illustrate the early history. The St Vigeans stones might be a good start, particularly the Drosten Stone. Catfish Jim and the soapdish (talk) 11:51, 11 December 2008 (UTC)


 * That was easy, the Drosten stone already has an entry on wikipedia Catfish Jim and the soapdish (talk) 11:55, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Arbroath High Street
I've removed that section as it was sticking out like a sore thumb. It could be argued that some of the information in it could be incorporated into a section about Arbroath's economy, but it doesn't merit its own section. Here's the material I removed:

"The High street of Arbroath has many good stores and also a shopping centree (Abbey Gate Shopping centre) the high street has stores such as Woolworths, Argos, Nickel N Dime( also selling furniture), M & Co, W H Smith, Sphere and Turret and Burtons"

Any objections? Catfish Jim and the soapdish (talk) 10:32, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

GA Status
I think it would be worthwhile to work this article up to GA status. It's a fair way off that at the moment, but most of the issues are ones of style rather than content.

I'm going to make some changes to bring the article in line with general wikipedia guidelines:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_UK_geography/How_to_write_about_settlements#Infobox.2A Catfish Jim and the soapdish (talk) 10:39, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Demography
This section needs cleaning up, as the references do not support a number of statements made. For instance, the assertion that 2.14% of the population are migrant workers cites the 2001 census, which only states that 2.14% of the population were born outside of the UK. Also the 4% unemployment figure cites a page that states Arbroath has 2.7% unemployment. Catfish Jim and the soapdish (talk) 16:55, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Name
I think that most people with any interest in placenames know that "aber" means "at the mouth of". However not many people seems to know what "brothock" means. Sure, it's the name of the burn but what does it mean? Well, from what I've been able to discover "Brothock" seems to come from the Gaelic "Brothaig", meaning "muddy" or "ditch". So it looks like the name means "At the mouth of the muddy stream". Wonder where we might get a reference ? -- Derek Ross | Talk 06:41, 15 December 2008 (UTC)


 * A slight concern would be that 'Brothock' may be older than the gaelicisation of this region. No harm in putting it as a possible/probable origin though, and Brythonic languages have some parallels. Catfish Jim and the soapdish (talk) 19:34, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

Useful site
This site looks interesting. I particularly like its links to its sources. -- Derek Ross | Talk 06:52, 15 December 2008 (UTC)


 * It's very interesting, although some of it is inaccurate... I've been busy moving house, but will get back to editing the page soon... Catfish Jim and the soapdish (talk) 19:31, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

Notable Arbroathians
This section probably needs cleaned up. Notable residents need to satisfy Notability (people) for inclusion in such lists.

For example, a relationship to a notable person does not make them notable, unless there is significant coverage in reliable secondary sources on that relation. While Liza Minnelli is certainly notable, her great great grandfather is not notable. Inclusion in a published genealogy does not qualify as significant coverage.

I'm going to delete Charles Milne, as well as Jamieson Douglas Fletcher, as his notability has not been asserted. I'm also going to delete Gary Macdonald... I'm sure he's a fine musician, but as the only reference I can find to him is a Bebo page (which may or may not be his), I suspect he is not notable in any way. Catfish Jim and the soapdish (talk) 10:55, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

The reference to Bernard, Bishop of Arbroath, in this section, adds to the confusion over his identity by stating that Bernard of Kilwinning and Bernard de Linton were one and the same person. The Wikipedia articles on the two refute this, as does the Oxford DNB. I've seen both men given credit for the Declaration of Arbroath. It's time this was discussed properly.--Mabzilla (talk) 10:38, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

GA Status
I've nominated Arbroath for GA review. It can't be too far off right now... I imagine there will be a few improvements suggested by reviewers. Catfish Jim and the soapdish (talk) 14:21, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Arbroth
Designated ARBROTH on the 1654 Blaeu map of Fife.

excimer1@aol.com —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.11.30.169 (talk) 22:26, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

What about an "Arbroath in Fiction" section?
By this, of course, I mean a reference to the Abbot of Aberbrothok in Inchcape Rock, once a very well known poem. Old_Wombat (talk) 12:09, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Could do. Arbroath also appears as "Fairport" in The Antiquary (with Auchmithie as "Musselcrag"). I am sure that there are other literary references. But we'd need a few to make the section worthwhile. -- Derek Ross &#124; Talk'' 16:28, 2 May 2011 (UTC)


 * I can't see a problem with such a section... as long as it conforms to WP:IPC and is referenced with secondary sources (shouldn't be a problem in this case). Catfish Jim   &#38; the soapdish  20:42, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

Climate
Should I add a climate section, with a weather box? Asking so I don't mess up Arbroaths GA status. Bruvtakesover (talk!) 18:46, 24 November 2011 (UTC)