Talk:Archer Avenue lines

Archer Avenue Extension
When I was redesigning and testing the signaling for the Archer Avenue Extension for Union Switch & Signal, I noticed some interesting attributes on the drawings and in the tunnels at Van Wyck Blvd. I walked the tunnels many times in 1986 and 1987 and found the following:

1) The entire grade separated tunnels for tracks D1A and D2A were built as part of the Queens lines contract under Public Works Administration (PWA) project No. 2741 in 1935 and 1936. The original tunnel lighting was installed and operative. They were called tracks D5 and D6 in the 1935 and were destined to go the Rockaways. 2) The tunnel was built originally from Van Wyck Blvd. to the middle of the present interlocking at Jamaica-Van Wyck. 3) When the Archer Avenue Extension was added the original tunnel was left original except for the addition of ties and track.

At Parsons-Archer, the tail track goes under the LIRR to allow for a several train storage. We provided rear home signals and red automatic signals with AK feature on these tail tracks. A Central Instrument Room (753CIR) is located deep in the tunnel on track D2A bench wall. --96.250.192.111 (talk) 21:45, 4 January 2010 (UTC) Barry

Beyond Jamaica Center
A real interesting paragraph:

"The original plan also called for the train to continue along the right of way of the Atlantic Branch of the Long Island Rail Road through the Locust Manor and Laurelton stations. The Montauk Branch through St. Albans already provides parallel service to Jamaica. This conversion would have involved modifying existing platforms at Locust Manor and Laurelton to accommodate the IND loading gauge, as well as constructing new stations to serve Southeast Queens. Due to a lack of funding, this plan was never implemented."

I don't know about the rest of you, but this seems like it might've also created the potential to reopen a lot of former LIRR stations along both the Atlantic and Montauk Branches. I imagine if the E train was extended, we'd have articles along there like Higbie Avenue (IND Locust Manor Line), and Cedar Manor (IND Locust Manor Line), and stations like Springfield Gardens (LIRR station) would be reactivated. Although I keep thinking the Archer Avenue-Locust Manor connection would've required some southwestern jughandle. DanTD (talk) 05:23, 2 January 2011 (UTC)


 * But it's not open, so all we can do is hope that the MTA would complete the project in the future. Epicgenius(talk to me • see my contributions) 13:53, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

Requested move 2 July 2018

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Moved as proposed, per general consensus. bd2412 T 13:28, 25 July 2018 (UTC)

– Per WP:CAPITALIZATION and WP:TITLEFORMAT, "Lines" should be lowercase in the titles of these articles due to being unnecessarily capitalized. Syntactically it is descriptive (e.g. "the subway lines under Archer Avenue") and not necessarily considered part of the proper name, regardless of whether "Line" itself is considered part of the proper name of the lines. Compare capitalizing "Lines" mid-sentence (e.g. "the subway Lines under Archer Avenue"). Contrastingly, "Myrtle–Wyckoff Avenues" is itself a proper noun due to being the station's official name.
 * Archer Avenue Lines → Archer Avenue lines
 * 63rd Street Lines → 63rd Street lines
 * Jamaica Center–Parsons/Archer (Archer Avenue Lines) → Jamaica Center–Parsons/Archer (Archer Avenue lines)
 * Sutphin Boulevard–Archer Avenue–JFK Airport (Archer Avenue Lines) → Sutphin Boulevard–Archer Avenue–JFK Airport (Archer Avenue lines)
 * Lexington Avenue–63rd Street (63rd Street Lines) → Lexington Avenue–63rd Street (63rd Street lines)
 * West Fourth Street–Washington Square (IND Lines) → West Fourth Street–Washington Square (New York City Subway)
 * 145th Street (IND Lines) → 145th Street (IND lines)
 * Seventh Avenue (IND Lines) → Seventh Avenue (IND lines)
 * 50th Street (IND Lines) → 50th Street (IND lines)
 * Hoyt–Schermerhorn Streets (IND Lines) → Hoyt–Schermerhorn Streets (New York City Subway)
 * Grand Central–42nd Street (IRT Lines) → Grand Central–42nd Street (New York City Subway)
 * 149th Street–Grand Concourse (IRT Lines) → 149th Street–Grand Concourse (New York City Subway)
 * Myrtle–Wyckoff Avenues (BMT Lines) → Myrtle–Wyckoff Avenues (New York City Subway)
 * DeKalb Avenue (BMT Lines) → DeKalb Avenue (BMT lines)
 * Prospect Park (BMT Lines) → Prospect Park (New York City Subway) Prospect Park (BMT Brighton Line)
 * 62nd Street/New Utrecht Avenue (BMT Lines) → 62nd Street/New Utrecht Avenue (New York City Subway)

For the unambiguously named stations which are disambiguated with "IND Lines" and so on, I would prefer to disambiguate them with "New York City Subway" (at least for now), although I'm also fine with keeping "IND lines" and so on. Jc86035 (talk) 06:40, 2 July 2018 (UTC) --Relisting. Dekimasu よ! 18:11, 15 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Support "lines" moves. I could support a move to "XXX lines" if there are multiple lines in question, since "lines" would be a common noun, not a proper noun. However:
 * Oppose Prospect Park (New York City Subway). Prospect Park (New York City Subway) leads to a disambiguation page since there is another station called 15th Street–Prospect Park (IND Culver Line). The original title of this article was Prospect Park (BMT Brighton Line).
 * Technically, that stop is only on the Brighton Line. Just check the track designations.--Kew Gardens 613 (talk) 19:18, 2 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Even better, we can just move Prospect Park (BMT Lines) back to Prospect Park (BMT Brighton Line). epicgenius (talk) 20:09, 2 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Support other "(New York City Subway)" titles. epicgenius (talk) 13:53, 2 July 2018 (UTC) courtesy ping. epicgenius (talk) 14:45, 2 July 2018 (UTC)
 * The notification isn't sent if you add your comment to a line which already has text on it. Jc86035 (talk) 20:48, 2 July 2018 (UTC)
 * I never knew that. I am just calling to your attention that Prospect Park (New York City Subway) is ambiguous. epicgenius (talk) 20:51, 2 July 2018 (UTC)
 * I've updated the proposal. Jc86035 (talk) 20:58, 2 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Excuse me. The Prospect Park (BMT Lines) article says that the station is located on two lines; the BMT Franklin Avenue Line article lists the station as located on it; the Franklin Avenue Shuttle article does not mention the Brighton Line as used by the shuttle; the BMT Brighton Line article does not mention the shuttle as a route using it. Are all of them consistently wrong? Vcohen (talk) 20:28, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
 * At the end of each platform, there should be a red sign hung from the ceiling, or near the top of the wall. It shows the line name, division, and subway chaining codes for each track. I'm not sure what the sign says, since I have never actually paid attention to the sign at Prospect Park. But if the letter prefixes are different for the local and express tracks, this means it's on two lines. If it says "Brighton Line - BMT" and the prefixes are all the same, it's on the Brighton Line exclusively. Again, I have never read the red sign in depth so I don't know what it says. This is a bit of an issue because the switches are located south of the station, not to the north where the lines diverge. epicgenius (talk) 03:20, 5 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Support only the following; I have considered leaving the existing Prospect Park (BMT Lines) as is, but despite the presence of the BMT Franklin Avenue Line, the Franklin Avenue Line itself was originally part of the BMT Brighton Line, so I'd be willing to consider returning the name to Prospect Park (BMT Brighton Line). On another issue, Grand Central (IRT elevated station) was an IRT station too, so the recent rename is pointless. -User:DanTD (talk)  14:01, 6 July 2018 (UTC)
 * For what reasons do you not support the other proposed page moves? Jc86035 (talk) 14:25, 6 July 2018 (UTC)
 * One lower case letter for the lines is awkward and out of balance. Therefore even if WP:CAPITALIZATION and WP:TITLEFORMAT dictates that this is how it should be, I can't abide by it. I had the same problem the last time this subject was brought up. -User:DanTD (talk) 14:29, 6 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Would you also have this issue with, for example, Special Counsel investigation? I think it's better to follow the guidelines, and there's at least one article in the New York Times which capitalizes "Archer Avenue lines" this way. Jc86035 (talk) 15:22, 6 July 2018 (UTC)


 * Support lowercase lines, avoiding overcapitalization. No problem with alternative disambiguators where preferred. Dicklyon (talk) 06:23, 16 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Support—Can we please go with MOSCAPS? Minimise capitalisation. It's plain, it's simple, it's good for editors, and the results read better. Tony (talk)  06:50, 16 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Support per MOS:CAPS, WP:NCCAPS, and a zillion previous RMs. Every other time I go to WP:RM there's another mass move relating to stations and lines, and they're always the same.  We have guidelines for a reason. The fact that "rail-ish" writers love to capitalise these things is irrelevant. They are not proper-noun phrases but descriptive labels that often contain a proper name; sources do not consistently capitalize them (it's mostly done on signage and in governmentese, which over-capitalise everything); so WP doesn't apply capitals.  The first rule of MOS:CAPS (and thus of NPCCAPS) is do not apply a capital letter unless the sources do it consistently.  The railfans keep making the same "give us our caps" arguments over and over and over, no matter how many times these arguments fail. This is the very definition of tendentiousness.   If there are any cases that turn out to be proper names (in the linguistic sense – the philosophy meaning has not relationship to capitalisation), then can be dealt with separately in one-article RMs.  One such case is Olympic station, which should be Olympic Station just like Grand Central Terminal; this is an evocative proper name not a descriptive label (it has no connection to the Olympics, or any place named "Olympic [Anything]" or [Anything] Olympic").   — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  23:08, 16 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Off-topic, but I personally think "Olympic" might actually just be an odd translation, since the Chinese name 奧運 means "Olympics"; compare Kensington (Olympia) station. Sameboat's argument in the mass RM (that an adjective doesn't mean "station" should be capitalized) is also worth noting. Incidentally, Sunny Bay station, on the same line, is actually named because of a sort of branding exercise done because the original Chinese name of the area was too unlucky for Disneyland. Jc86035 (talk) 06:02, 17 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Well, I didn't mean to mire us in discussion of that one; I researched it, and it was named – in weirdly vague fashion – in honor of a specific Chinese olympian; it's a bit like naming a station "Astronaut Terminal", for no particular reason, with Kathryn Hire in mind in particular. The point being, the station itself has nothing to do with astronaut-stuff (or Olympics-stuff in this case). If it was a station at an Olympic Games site, then it would would be descriptive, like Van Ness station, the station at Van Ness Ave. in San Francisco.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  06:23, 17 July 2018 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.