Talk:Archibald Gardner/Archive 1

Article organization
I did some reorganizing, minor editing, and established some headings on this article. Even though I am aware of this Mormon pioneer, I found the article confusing and some material excessive. Is some of this material under copyright? As the primary editor is using a Gardner name, is this a family project? WikiProject Latter Day Saint movement has an active workforce, guidelines, and style suggestions which might be helpful here. Best Wishes. WBardwin 07:52, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Original Research and Citation tags
I restored the tags because there still is some original research. Additionally, although some citations have been added more are still needed -- Trödel 00:49, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Trodel's dogged point of view reminds me of today's NY Times issue, discussing the roads of 1600 AD Peru, created by Inca engineers. Attested history had usually not mentioned the many rope bridges that allowed the mountain road system to be a vital link in Incan life, though Incas had not developed the wheel, a modern need of users of roads (as noted by http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/08/science/08bridg.html?_r=1&oref=slogin ),

Yet, I contend that the exclusion of bridges was one of the 'original Inca research' errors that needed to be excised. That is, Utah historians have commonly excised infrastructure issues that did not fit their predetermined idealistic Zion (Deseret) story line. It appears that the life of Archibald contains several stark realities of pioneer life subjects. One stark reality was gristmills, and how dire/difficult everyday Utah life was without an adequate supply of money. Living in a 'cash strapped economy' pioneer Utah life needs to be put into its fully historical context. In addition, returning to the Inca rope bridge analogy, the issue of Pioneer Utah's infrastructure needs to be fully addressed. One of the major builders of Utah canals, and bridges was Archibald Gardner. Adding back the often ignored infrastructure leaders of pioneer Utah, and its attested infrastructure story is required (at some point). Adding back the often ignored projects that Archibald Gardner spent his leadership years, has often been the context of Trodel's over zealous editing (issues that can be discussed over months and years). The attested pioneer context needs to returned, over months and years, and not days (a position that I have never suggested). Thank you one and all for pointing this project in the proper direction. There is much to do. Best Regards, Milogardner


 * Look I really don't care about the "idealistic Zion (Deseret) story" and I am not even sure what that is, if it even exists. I understand the importance of Gristmills, but that can be stated in a concise way referencing a reliable source. However, if the article states or implies that Gardner is a visionary because he inherently understood the importance..., then we are not writing neutrally. We can say, "Jones states that 'Gardner's vision of gristmills showed a vision of a more propserous community." or whatever he said. If several refernces say the same thing then we can summarize as, "Historians ascribe the construction of gristmills by Gardner as proving a vital link for the economic expansion..." and then reference several historians that made that claim. However, the sources need to be reliable.
 * I understand that you are frustrated. However, continuing to insult me is not helpful. -- Trödel 14:55, 8 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Original research? Questionable source. The external link to the "Journal of Archibald Gardner" shows that this material was "Posted by milo gardner at 6:08 AM."  So, Milo Gardner published the journal material online and then quoted it in this article?  Has this material been quoted/published elsewhere?  ISBN?  65.54.97.190 02:40, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Summary

 * ''Written by Trödel - please edit for neutrality if needed

Since it seems that only Trödel and Milogardner seem to be commenting about this article, therefor a wider group of contributors is needed to reach concensus. The positions are (Milogardner, please feel free to edit the text below identifying your position):
 * Trödel: The biography is not neutrally presented, contains original research, and is too detailed.
 * Milogardner: The biography is generally accurate. Additional details are needed to bring into focus the pioneer economic world that Archibald Gardner worked so hard to improve, by adding mediums of exchange when no hard money was available.

Trödel and Milogardner have traded several barbs(see Trödel talk and Milogardner talk), so a Request for Comment has been filed by Trödel.
 * Milogardner responds: Trodel strongly requests detailed footnotes (style issues), while Milogardner requests substance issues (putting the pioneer past into perspective).Gardner cites content and footnotes by combining the two aspects of the Wiki topics into a unified whole.


 * Issues:
 * From WBardwin
 * "My concerns about the article, including those personality details, are probably covered in Wikipedia:No original research which is a firm Wiki policy. Material without some published source, somewhere, is simply considered inapproriate for the Wiki. So, unless your family material has been formally published, you should trim those personal details." ''from User talk:Milogardner.
 * This issue of Archibald's personality has been excised from the article for the present (a topic that is not been protested), until two or more secondary sources detail his story telling and attest personality. Milogardner
 * "I found the article confusing and some material excessive." ''from
 * From Trödel
 * "...there must be some original research in the article" ''from
 * Trodel's blind belief that there must be original research in the article is odd, for several reasons. First, he does not name one issue, though he excises several topics, shotgunning away, thinking that one or two original topic must have been hit. How strange. Milogardner
 * The biography is not neutrally presented ''summary of other comments*

A Request for Comment has been posted to the Biography page to get additional viewpoints on this article. I also notified all editors and anons who made substantive edits to the article. 172.144.152.6, 68.21.251.30, 172.135.123.185, 63.224.137.164, Bronsongardner, 75.48.13.240, 12.106.111.10, Milogardner, and WBardwin

Trodel, for one, has not provided his qualifications to edit the life of Archibald Gardner, a Utah pioneer. Until Trodel. and other committee members, can show that the pioneer life of Utah is known to him (and them), their attempts at improving Archibald's life work building the infrastructure of Utah, from canals that operated gristmills, and the bridges that crossed canals and rivers will be seen as a modern view of minimally reporting a man's life. Milogardner

Trodel, state your position, by CV or some other method, and let's get off your modern views of a man that died 105 years ago, someone that you still know little of --- when quotes are given, you claim copyright issues; when quotes are not given you claim original research. You have a pat answer, since you are operating from an unstated agenda. Please state your agenda.Milogardner

Dear whomever said " looks like this material is in dispute -- please take material to the talk page for discussion." I am ready to discuss any aspect of Archibald's life. Please be specific when erasing any statement. This is, erasing a block of data, dropping off an unclear comment leaving fuzzy words "looks like this material is in dispute" is almost meaningless. From May 14 to May 17, 2007 I visited Utah and Wyoming locations, seeing all the cemeteries and all the monuments, and so forth, discussing with several family members, and others, the scope and purpose of the Archibald Gardner Wikipedia web page. It is greatly needed. Fragments of Archibald's live need to be pulled together, on Wikipedia since so many people have dropped the ball over the years. The blog attachments can be used by those interested in family history, however, the Wikipedia text is used for verified history of the man's life! Best Regards, Milogardner

Comments
I created this RFC and the summary above because I can't seem to work with Milogardner. I tried to be helpful at first, but that deteriorated. What needs to be addressed, however, are the substantive issues raised by WBardwin and myself. -- Trödel 16:32, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Trodel continually offers value judgments* and no detailed explanations of his possible original research position. My position is that Trodel does not understand (and therefore does no independent review footnotes/blogs that describe the pioneer life and economy of 1831-1857) the period when Archibald built gristmills, and lumber mills, in Canada and Utah. When a validated historical topic is cited, fuzzily at first by myself in certain cases, Trodel reacts by often excising it or demanding an excessive number of footnotes - so somone else can does his review of a well defined topic. Best Regards, Milogardner

I have explained every edit in the edit summary - as well as try to explain generally how an encyclopedic article should be writting. It should be concise, provide some details to set things in context, but should not be a flowery tribute. Here are the Substantive comments I have made. I would be happy to discuss the details with you. However, I am not sure how we can move forward discussing the details when we seem to strongly disagree about how to write an encyclopedic article. In my mind until we can come to some concensus on the application of the policies in this article it will be difficult to move forward. -- Trödel 14:44, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
 * edit ~ References – more removal see edit by Milogardner where they were added just because I mentioned them
 * edit ~ References – removing references I found on google books - but which have not been read to determine relevance as they are not accessible
 * edit ~ Life in the West – describe link better
 * edit ~ In Alvinston, Ontario – although this is in rootsweb - that is not a reliable source
 * edit ~ In Alvinston, Ontario – copyedit
 * edit ~ This is way too much detail for an encyclopedia - summarizing and including references
 * edit ~ Plural Marriage and Family – completely unsourced
 * edit ~ In West Jordan, Utah – copyedit
 * edit ~ Mormon pioneer – totally unsourced details
 * edit ~ Mormon pioneer – summarizing
 * edit ~ Mormon pioneer – add reference and summarize the text
 * edit ~ Settlement in Utah – ore nsourced details
 * edit ~ Early LDS Church membership – unreferenced quotes and claims
 * edit ~ In Alvinston, Ontario – this claim of being used in Uncle Tom's Cabin must be referenced - it looks like something someone would make up and through into wikipedia to make wikipedia look foolish
 * edit ~ In Alvinston, Ontario – removing another plagiarized sentence
 * edit ~ In Alvinston, Ontario – remove more plagiarized text
 * edit ~ In Alvinston, Ontario – no reason for this sentence
 * edit ~ In Alvinston, Ontario – assuming that building without nails is unusual leaving this in and wording more succintly
 * edit ~ In Alvinston, Ontario – remove general information about Gristmills that is in the gristmill article
 * edit ~ remove unsourced $33 price - and rewording sentence so it doesn't plagiarize
 * edit ~ In Alvinston, Ontario – unneeded
 * edit ~ In Alvinston, Ontario – remove plagiarized sentence from http://www.xcelco.on.ca/~alvilib/history.htm
 * edit ~ Business and Public Service – remove unsourced claims
 * edit ~ Business and Public Service – remove expansion of text from source
 * edit ~ Plural Marriage and Family – and more text attributed to blogs
 * edit ~ Plural Marriage and Family – remove more text that is attributed to blogs
 * edit ~ move this from summary - it isn't a summary but more a description of gristmills
 * edit ~ Early life – removing text attributed to a blog post

Trodel's position is that Milogardner has no professional experience writing encyclopedia articles. Is he published? I am, in the history of math community, once in an excyclopedia, and twice in journals. Keeping an article to its salient points is critical. It is also critical to prove every point that is made in objective terms, and when necessary in practical terms. So far Trodel only takes the low road concerning Archibald, detroying his life's topics, most often because he had not shown that he ad read one of the references cited, and so forth. That is, Ostrichs do no make good editors. Best Regards, Milogardner
 * That is not my position at all. Where have I said that? It is no wonder you feel the need to insult me if you read such hostile motives into my request that the article be neutral, free of original research, and properly referenced. -- Trödel 11:19, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

ps, my bio and CV are available online, at the end of http://egyptianmath.blogspot.com. Can others cite their qualifications and thereby stop providing premature value judgments on a topic that may be new to them. Milogardner

Trodel,what is your position? Please do not be brief. You cite minimal reasons in the edit summary line. Better yet, beyond your personal qualifications (note that I have cited mine by link), it would be interesting to see your committee's position on Archibald Gardner. Why do you guys dislike his life so much. He built Utah's infrastructure, from canals, bridges and mills that operated in canals and rivers, and much more. Let's get back to discussing a man's life, so that this Wiki War can end, gracefully for both sides. Best Regards, Milogardner


 * I have long thought that this article has notability problems (see Category:Wikipedia articles with topics of unclear importance, Ownership of articles and Notability). As a counter example, one of my pioneer ancestors was a peer of Archibald.  He was born in Massachusetts in 1810, and joined the new church there in 1832.  He moved with the Saints to Kirtland, and followed them to the Rocky Mountains.  During his lifetime, he built and operated many flour mills.
 * Kirtland 1834.
 * Far West in 1837. Some of the proceeds from this mill financed the British mission.
 * near Nauvoo, Illinois circa 1842.
 * Winter Quarters in 1846, at the request of the Twelve so that the pioneers could grind grain for the trek west.
 * Weber Valley in 1848.
 * Willard, Box Elder Valley in 1851.
 * Southern Utah in 1864 as part of the "mission" settlement of the Muddy River.
 * Ten Mile pass, Idaho in 1876, again as part of a called mission.


 * He served an ecclesiastical mission in Britain in 1856 and returned home during the Utah War. Later in life, in Utah, he served as a Bishop for many years and (somewhat reluctantly) became a polygamist and ultimately raised three families.  Only modestly educated, he was a great reader and established several schools.  He served as US postmaster in Willard and rode the mail route between Southern Utah to Nevada, often dealing with Indians, and was severely injured on one occasion.  From all accounts, he was charming but "unhandsome", frugal, honest, had a wry sense of humor and was an overall good guy.


 * We have this information from family records and from a few incidental references in journals by more prominent Church members. He is also found in church and missionary records in the church headquarters.  A book about him was produced during the family history push by the DUP in the 1940's and I own a copy.  However, the book is not generally available to the public and would not be an acceptable source by Wikipedia standards.  Despite the fact that his descendants are proud of him and remember him fondly, all this information does not make my ancestor notable by Wikipedia standards and I would not consider producing an article on him.  If the Mormonwiki had a project on Mormon pioneers (not a bad idea?), I could place an article there.


 * So -- I believe that if Archibald Gardner is to have a Wikipedia article, it must focus on what makes the man notable, unique and/or outstanding. All information retained in the article should be based on sources that other people can review and reference.  Alternatively, perhaps an article on Industrial Development in "Zion" could be written, with Archibald as a primary example of mill building and development.  This would allow us to focus some attention on many other Mormon pioneers that were not in the Church heirarchy but provided expertise and skill to the development of the Mountain West.  WBardwin 20:27, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Dear Brother Baldwin. The tone and scope of your qualifications is considerable and well appreciated. It appears that you are saying that a background article om "Industrial Development in Zion" is required prior to the gristmill aspects of Archibald's life being properly introduced. Given that Archibald's infrastructure work, extending well beyond the development of the first businesses in several towns, namely the building of bridges, canals and other constructions were that reimbursed by the Territorial Legislature, may I disagree with your assessment. Archibald became an elected Legislator, for two terms, and provided other leadership functions that the Wiki format can and should properly document. That is, you and your committee persons' odd 'hit and run' tactics have shown little or no real background in pioneer Utah, and the macro view of Western pioneer economic topics. Given your committee's limited biography mandate (oddly excising Archibald's polygamy, also taken on reluctantly), would you, or someone on your committee, at some future point claim/demand that a second background Wiki project ' "Canal and Bridge Development in Zion", as you are requesting with gristmills? From my point of view, it is odd that my well established and standard macro (positive) top down view of Utah and the West is not being allowed to trump (or considered as an equal) to your defensive nonstandard inside out oriented editors. Again, your editors seem to be taking a micro, inside out view off Utah pioneer life, as noted by stressing Zion (a failed political/religious entity), rather than the West (a winning US political entity). Archibald's canal and bridge building, mining and other leadership activities deserve to be included a Wiki life story! Let's get off the myopia, and onto the great economic treads that built the United States, noting Utah as one small state in many. Milogardner

Finally, your reference to "I believe that if Archibald Gardner is to have a Wiki ..." is an odd fallback position. State up front the charter of your LDS biography committee' work, and rein it in when members of your committee hav e exceeded their authority, as I suggest (above) by requesting an "Industrial Development in Zion" Wiki project. Such a topic, if created would necessarily be of a broader regional scope. Limiting any pioneer topic to Zion, as you have suggested' is creating the exact type of myopic view of the pioneer West that Archibald Garndner's Wiki project is designed to confront and correct. Best Regards, Milogardner

Gremlin's are not allowing my full post to be entered. So I'll try again. Milogardner

SmackBot cleared the 'unclear importance' category assignment
I noticed that this was in the Category: Wikipedia articles with topics of unclear importance. Recently SmackBot removed it from that category, perhaps because it lacked an 'nn' (non-notable) tag. Since I haven't been active on this page, I did not restore the tag, but it seems like logic would require it to be put back, if the editors here still don't have reliable sources for his notability. EdJohnston 20:19, 6 June 2007 (UTC)