Talk:Archie Meets the Punisher

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BetacommandBot (talk) 05:10, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Today's edits, June 29
I've been working with my colleague User:Ntnon on a couple of other pages, and it's only coincidence that I came to this one (on my watchlist), which he had just edited. I just want to note than I did not touch the bulk of his edits, but only one item having to do with questionable sourcing from a non-journalistic fansite that did not give its source of its claim. I did, however, leave Ntnon's link, placing it under the for-further-reading "External links" section. --Tenebrae (talk) 23:33, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
 * No problem. :o) I understand the reasoning here, and would support it utterly if I could remember where I'd read the - now excised - information professionally. I know that wasn't the best of sources to cite (although I like your compromise of putting it in the links), but I've lost/misplaced/misremembered the better one... ntnon (talk) 02:01, 30 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks for your kind words and your understanding. We seem to be crossing paths a lot, and I'm really glad to be working with someone so genial and reasonable in working out what are, ultimately, technical differences in sourcing and phrasing, and not disagreement about content. In fact, I think I may even have been on a panel with Victor Gorelick once where he made an offhand comment to that effect, but that was yeeeeaaaarrrs ago! --Tenebrae (talk) 02:37, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Story's lethality content
As of December 07, 2018 I've been having an argument with user Argento Surfer (talk) about the story's lethality content, specifying the scene at the school dance where Punisher takes on a group of mobsters dsguised as caterers trying to kill Archie Andrews. Argento Surfer keeps arguing (and re-correcting) that the Punisher uses "non-lethal methods" to disable the drug mobsters; but looking at the corresponding pages' contents, I cannot concur. While some external sources listed here also speak of "non-lethal violence", the Punisher's use of a Uzi SMG and clearly (if offpanel) breaking the boss mobster's neck should hardly count as such, as does the final panel featuring the result of this carnage. DanielC46 (talk) 19:38, 7 December 2018 (UTC)
 * From the article: "The only editorial interference came from Gorelick, who objected to Punisher shooting a thug during a school dance. The scene was changed to have Punisher hit the thug with a cake.[11]"
 * Also from the article: Comic Book Resources [called] the portrayal of Riverdale as a "bastion of innocence" that needed Punisher's non-lethal protection "brilliant".[18]
 * From the comment above: "clearly (if offpanel) breaking the boss mobster's neck" - unless it's on-panel, or a character on panel says something like "Oh my gosh! Punisher just broke the boss' neck!", I think this is particularly unclear and therefore OR. Argento Surfer (talk) 19:43, 7 December 2018 (UTC)
 * My response: "The only editorial interference came from Gorelick, who objected to Punisher shooting a thug during a school dance. The scene was changed to have Punisher hit the thug with a cake[11]" was clearly meant to be "shooting him on-panel". If one looks closer at the scene, the Punisher was deprived of his gun by Coach Kleats' attempt to tackle him, and with no other option at hand, he resorted to using the cake to blind the mobster, and then break his neck while a horrified Archie looks on - or what else should the "Krak!" sound in that panel signify? All the other mobsters getting shot was not featured on-panel, either, but at the end neither of them looks like being simply k.o.ed by Punisher's SMG bullets. (Or are there any stars or such signifying a cartoon-type knockout shown anywhere on the pic in question?) DanielC46 (talk) 19:56, 7 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Saying that things are "clearly" something doesn't mean they are. Argento Surfer (talk) 20:01, 7 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Not a feasible counterargument to the subject at hand. Unless you can present something to the contrary, I suggest changing the wording to "taking down" in order to prevent further such ping-pong arguments. DanielC46 (talk) 20:06, 7 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Since we obviously can't persuade each other, why don't we wait for others to weigh in? Argento Surfer (talk) 20:25, 7 December 2018 (UTC)
 * I'm in agreement. DanielC46 (talk) 20:28, 7 December 2018 (UTC)


 * FWIW I'm on Argento's side. The problem with your changes to the synopsis, as Argento points out, are that they're based on your interpretation of the story (WP:OR and WP:SYNTH). We can only say he killed someone if it's explicitly stated/shown on-panel. JOE BRO  64  17:56, 8 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Scans of the relevant scene can be found here. Argento Surfer (talk) 13:07, 10 December 2018 (UTC)
 * If external sources say that he used non-lethal violence, that's what we go with, per WP:VER. If you can provide a reliable secondary source that say's he used lethal force, add it as well. --Killer Moff (talk) 14:03, 10 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Counterquestion: Has any of you actually read the comic? I mean, not just skimming through the pages, but actually read it from A to Z? 15:55, 11 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Yes. Argento Surfer (talk) 16:05, 11 December 2018 (UTC)
 * I wasn't addressing you, Argento Surfer, but the rest of the readership in general. DanielC46 (talk) 17:53, 11 December 2018 (UTC)
 * I believe you read the story when you participated in the FAC. Would you mind to weigh in on this? Argento Surfer (talk) 18:17, 11 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I agree we can't ignore what the sources say in favour of our own interpretations, that is the very definition of WP:original research... Statements like "or what else should the "Krak!" sound in that panel signify" are really irrelevant to such a discussion, as it relies entirely on editor interpretation. FunkMonk (talk) 19:31, 11 December 2018 (UTC)


 * By the way,, I was wondering if this will return to FAC again? Would be a shame if the work went to waste. FunkMonk (talk) 04:52, 24 October 2020 (UTC)
 * I'd like to one day, but I'll need to wait until I have the time to commit to responses. Right now my editing time is hit or miss. Argento Surfer (talk) 13:10, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
 * , I just read Archie vs. Predator II (which is now only mentioned in the intro of the first comic's article), and the writer actually says "Even in Archie Meets Punisher, the only thing that died was Frank Castle's self-esteem" in the foreword. So that should settle things here, I assume? FunkMonk (talk) 20:14, 1 January 2021 (UTC)
 * First, I'm sorry you slogged through that comic. AvP II was way below the quality of the first series in my opinion. Second, thanks for that tidbit! It's nice to have an additional source that's at least tangential to primary. Argento Surfer (talk) 13:43, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
 * It was a bit of a mess, yeah, but I wanted to get the last comics before Disney gobbles up all Dark Horse's movie licences... FunkMonk (talk) 20:05, 4 January 2021 (UTC)