Talk:Arda (Tolkien)

Arda Healed
I removed the line about Morgoth being slain during the Dagor Dagorath. That belonged to an old version of the myths (the Second Prophecy of Mandos) that was abandoned by Tolkien, and thus removed from The Silmarillion. There's nothing specific said about Dagor Dagorath in the final version of the legends, only that Morgoth would return and there would be a great battle. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.22.52.196 (talk) 19:35, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

Erda?
Isn't Arda in inspiration essentially the same as the character Erda (apparently conflated with Urðr/Wyrd) from Wagner's Ring? Nuttyskin (talk) 15:59, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Arda (terminology)
According to the Middle-earth article, Arda is an Elvish-language term. Pardon my ignorance, but is it Quenya or Sindarin? Or indeed both? -- Oliver P. 00:54 May 8, 2003 (UTC)

"Noncanon names" - it's rather POV, as the "canon" Silmarillion is what Christopher Tolkien chose to include. I think "Round World version" would be the better header name... Ausir 23:25, 20 Mar 2004 (UTC)


 * Does the term Romenor appear in Tolkien's writing? I can't find it. This looks like another one of the roleplaying terms to me, and thus non-canon. Apologies in advance if it is an actual JRRT term (I'd appreciate a pointer to where the term can be found!). &mdash; Jor (Talk) 23:37, 20 Mar 2004 (UTC)


 * No idea. It might be a MERP name, like Morenor. Ausir 23:38, 20 Mar 2004 (UTC)


 * I suspect it is, as the only Googles for it are MERP material and Wikipedia copies. I don't have the index volume for the HoME series yet, but the name does not appear in the indices for IX–XII (where it would if it were part of the "Round World" bit), or in IV (Ambarkanta). &mdash; Jor (Talk) 23:43, 20 Mar 2004 (UTC)

The identification of Aman with America seems silly, considering that Aman was supposed to have been physically separated from the rest of Arda when the latter was made round. &mdash; Gwalla | Talk 21:48, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The meaning of "Mediterranean" in latin is not similar to "Middle-earth" at all. In fact, it rather means "surrounded by lands" or "in the middle of lands". This should be corrected. Algamarga 13:11, 12 Sep 2005 (CEST)

Vienna and Asia Minor

 * Tolkien stated that The Shire's geographic location roughly corresponded to the Midlands of England, while Minas Tirith in Gondor corresponded roughly to Vienna, putting Mount Doom and Mordor in the general region of Asia Minor.

To judge from Image:Middle-earth.jpg, Mount Doom is about 150 miles east-northeast of Minas Tirith. If Minas Tirith is about where Vienna is, then Mount Doom somewhere in Slovakia, not Asia Minor. Did Tolkien say Asia Minor, or is that someone else's interpretation? User:Angr 21:23, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
 * No that is all someone's extrapolation. What Tolkien actually wrote was, "If Hobbiton and Rivendell are taken (as intended) to be at about the latitude of Oxford, then Minas Tirith, 600 miles south, is at about the latitude of Florence. The Mouths of Anduin and the ancient city of Pelargir are at about the latitude of ancient Troy." - Letters #294
 * Note that he refers only to latitudes and does not equate the locations. The only possible 'direct correspondences' are England to Tol Eressea (in earlier texts) or the Shire (in later versions). --CBD 10:43, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Then I'm replacing the incorrect interpolation with what Tolkien actually said. User:Angr 11:37, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

I am not so good with calculating exactly but I always assumed that Mordor was suppose to be modern day Turkey and Gondor could possibly be Greece. Tolkien was partly inspired by Christianity and it's history. So logically Mordor is the country Turkey and Gondor is most likely Greece. Anker99 00:50, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Seeing as Tolkien only refers to the latitudes that correspond with Earth, it seems he was trying to point out that the geogrpahy of middle-earth is inspired by, but not necessarily directily related to, the geography of Earth, or rather Europe. So, while we can try to draw conclusions, we can't assume that Tolkien wanted the geography of Middle-earth to directly reflect the geogrpahy of Europe.

Was not Mount Doom intended to be at about the same latitude as Bagdad?

2009-07-25 Lena Synnerholm, Märsta, Sweden. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.247.167.70 (talk) 19:19, 25 July 2009 (UTC)


 * If you look at the map as a kind of distorted map of Europe (sans Med), Mordor actually seems to describe the Alps, the more southerly of Mordor's encircling mountain ranges suggests the Italian peninsula, and Mount Doom perhaps Etna.
 * Nuttyskin (talk) 16:07, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Middle Earth was loosely based on Europe, North Africa and the Middle East with a partly died up Mediterranean Sea. When I see the map of the Middle Earth I think that the Sea of Rhur as corresponding to the Black Sea. The large lake in Mordor corresponds to what is left of the eastern Mediterranean and the Bay of Belpalas to the western Mediterranean. Eriador corresponds to the British Isles. However, I am not sure if the latitudes of these really correspond. If I remember it correctly these places corresponds in latitude between Arda and the real Earth:

¤ The Shire is at the same latitude as the area around Oxford. ¤ Rivendell is at the same latitude as Florence. ¤ The ruin city passed on the way to Mordor (don’t remember the name of it) is at the same latitude as Troy. ¤ Mount Doom is at the same latitude as Baghdad.

John Tolkien was a perfectionist so he must likely kept track of distances and latitudes. But I think we should only think in terms of latitudes and not of actual locations.

2010-08-21 Lena Synnerholm, Märsta, Sweden.

Elves
The Sundering was only an IDEA, and if it IS true only Noldor are effected, since they were cursed. Valinor CALLS them, the Rings simply lost there powers.

Arda is in Ea... what are you thinking!
You are all CRAZY, Ared is a totally different Universe (Ea stupid) and besides where is Valinor? Do you see ANY Elves ANY were on Earth?!!!!!!!!!!!!, and if they are wraiths woundn't they're voices be heard istead of just phiscally fading?

Arda was intended to be the Earth in a mythological past. When Arda was made round Valinor was removed from the sphere and made accessible only to the elves by supernatural means. (I don't know if John Tolkien intended it to be placed on an other planet or in an other dimension.) Please note that magic – which is a part of the workings of Arda – does not exist in the real world. Also, the end of an age and the start of a new one is marked by world-wide disasters profoundly changing geography. This form of catastrophism was discredited in the mid-20th century when the books where written. For you in may be easier to think of Arda as a fictional universe amongst many others.

2009-07-29 Lena Synnerholm, Märsta, Sweden.

Correct me if i am wrong but didnt tolkien discard the middle earth as early earth history idea? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.183.214.150 (talk) 00:58, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

juggled Ideas
I belive that arda isn't earth for three resons,

1.The idea was an idea and not necicerally published.

2.It would take the feeling of "escape" and "sancturary" away from the stories.

3.(After much study) he based it off the sagas of the norse cultiure. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.222.186.6 (talk) 01:23, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Pronunciation of Arda
"specifically the Afrikaans "Aarde" which has equivalent pronunciation" My guess is that the Afrikaans Aarde is pronounced something like [ɑːɹdə], while the Quenya Arda is [arda]/[ɑrdɑ], which is not equivalent, although the common pronunciation by native English-speakers is [ɑːdə] or [ɑːɹdə]. --Oscararon (talk) 18:28, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Map?
Could someone upload a map here? The best one I found was: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/maps/arda3.gif. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mjbauer95 (talk • contribs) 22:55, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

"Evolution" To Earth
It is my understanding that Arda "evolved" so-to-speak into our modern planet. I have understood it as these continental evoulutions: Middle-earth = Eurasia (Eregion = Europe, Rhûn? = Asia,). Hither lands = Africa. Dark Land = Antarctica? Oceania?. Hildórien = Americas. As well as some regional evolutions that could be seen as explanatory: Gondor = Spain and portugal. Arnor = France, western Germany and Switzerland, Netherlands, and Belgium (with the exception of The Shire and the surrounding areas becoming England). Forodwaith = Scandinavia, and Denmark?. Mordor = everything south of: Italy?, Austria, Hungary?, southern Romainia and sections of Greece, to Africa. Mirkwood, Rhovanion and Rohan = everything east of Eastern Germany, Austria and Italy, to Poland, and Slovakia. Oceanical similarities are: Belegaer = Atlantic. East sea = Indian Ocean to roughly South China Sea. Unnamed ocean east of Hildórien (correct me if i'm wrong) = pacific. Geographical: Misty mountains = ? . White mountains = Alps. Blue mountains = Scottish Grampians?. Ash and Shadowy Mountains = (that mountain range in Romania and Slovakia(please help here)). Cities: Minas tirith = Bratislava, Slovakia. Barad-Dur = Nyregyihaza, Hungary. Hobbitton = Cambridge, United Kingdom. There you go, that took a lot of brainpower and research.Please notify me of any complications. (I apologize if my signature is wrong)(I also apologize if I offended anyone in any way I improperly spelled or gramatified a location) Exoworlder (talk) 03:19, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Arda Marred issues
"It is this world from which are formed the hröa of the Children of Ilúvatar, and therefore it is at times a cruel and evil world with plagues, extreme colds, heat, and other concepts which do not exist in Arda Unmarred."

This seems to be a misplaced clause; "and therefore" various evils should refer to Melkor's influence as the cause of the evils, not to the formation of the Children of Iluvatar's bodies!

"Arda Marred also broke the design of Elvish immortality: in Arda Marred Elves slowly fade, until at last they are naught but wraiths. Only in Valinor was this fading delayed, which is one reason all Elves had no choice but to go to Valinor in the end." I do not believe this is correct. It's always at least implied that some Elves stayed and did 'fade'. They're not visible by the time historical times come around, their bodies have become 'subtle' and invisible (usually), but they're still present and on rare occasions show themselves to certain Men (leading, implicitly, to our own legends of elves and such). This is discussed in detail in "Morgoth's Ring" (HoME volume X).Vultur (talk) 05:25, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

Arda

 * Arda= River in Bulgaria,( with a small village on it) Arda_%28Maritsa%29
 * Arda/Artha in avest. derived from sanskr. means right, truthful, strait [
 * Udun- slavic languages means Bottom, darkness U-in Dun-Дъно Bottom http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D0%B4%D1%8A%D0%BD%D0%BE
 * Rohan,= Roloxan- Rusians,Skytians, horse peoples worshiping the horses armed with spears.
 * Vala/r = slavic Veela,(Вила writeen also Veila- root valaga = slavic languages= river, this root formed river Volga) celestial beings, called Angels and "Arangels" ( the mistake is correct) singing beautiful songs armed with bows.http://www.bulgarian-folklore.com/articles.php?article_id=214
 * Boro-mir= "Fighter (for) peace/ also mir means man in sanskr. and avest. that forms all -mir endings" Bor- fight o- for mir- peace http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D0%B1%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B1%D0%B0
 * Talkien Elves= Slavic samodivas, Veelas, with bows high beings. Veelas are living in mountain ranges, have male brothers who fights for them. Samodivas live near waterfals and rivers they dance in a ring like meadows clothed with white dress and green belts "dressed in shadow like skirts"
 * Elf= all etymology suggest, bright, white, celestial beings.[]


 * Now the question is did the Nordic savage people who invened the iron 900 years after the rest of the world were inspired by the "southeast European myths" or the southeasterns ( incl. greeks,thracians,skythians, sarmatians,dacians, kimvris,armenians, hititans, persians) were insired by the nordic savages? Those who answer that question will paint the map of Arda.


 * I said "Talkien elves" because his elves has nothing to do with high german elves f grimm brothers, or with nordic elves who are evil spirits living in tombs. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nix1129 (talk • contribs) 07:05, 14 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Great. Now all you have to do is provide sources for your insane pro-Bulgarian ramblings and we can start editing the articles. GimliDotNet ( Speak to me,  Stuff I've done )  07:11, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

Ahh you again. I wont provide any source as this discussion here is unofficial. I am not suggesting any changes of the main article but i am offering my POV. Now please, go to the infantile readers section where the children play because as you can see there are some who are trying to think and interpret ( like Exoworlder ) and this discussion here is not for you. My thinking is not "insane pro-Bulgarian ramblings" and i suggest you to change your attitude.
 * I suggest you read WP:FORUM. These pages are not here for you to discuss your POV.  GimliDotNet ( Speak to me,  Stuff I've done )  20:14, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

Hither Lands
This article equates "the South" of Middle-earth with the "Hither Lands" (quote from the article: "To the south were the Hither Lands including Harad") but I don't think this is correct. In the Silmarillion, the term "Hither Lands" seems to signify all of Middle-earth (with the connotation "the lands east of the sea, the lands that are not Aman"), e.g.:

"In time the hosts of the Vanyar and the Noldor came to the last western shores of the Hither Lands. In the north these shores, in the ancient days after the Battle of the Powers, bent ever westward, until in the northernmost parts of Arda only a narrow sea divided Aman, upon which Valinor was built, from the Hither Lands; but this narrow sea was filled with grinding ice, because of the violence of the frosts of Melkor. [...] The kinsfolk and friends of Elwë Singollo also remained in the Hither Lands" Etc. etc. (J. R. R. Tolkien: The Silmarillion, Of Eldamar and the Princes of the Eldalië)

92.201.253.110 (talk) 21:25, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

Merger proposal (Belegaer)
I propose that Belegaer be moved here. It is a stub article with only one reference, and much of its substance overlaps with this article.--Jack Upland (talk) 09:04, 15 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Support. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 07:09, 21 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Support. And rather selective merge at that. Hog Farm (talk) 16:20, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

Merge from History of Arda
Arda may be notable (it has an entry in Tolkien Encyclopedia). But its history is unlikely to warrant a stand-alone article. I suggest merging that article here. Fictional history of a minor fictional entity is unlikely to be notable. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 07:09, 21 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Support: this article is small enough to incorporate the history article.--Jack Upland (talk) 07:56, 21 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Support: Arda seems to be notable. But its fictional history is not independently notable, and a separate history article is likely to run into in-universe issues. Hog Farm (talk) 16:21, 25 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Support We should keep the redundancy to a minimum. Interestingly, there is also a chronological list of events in Tolkien's legendarium. &#8213; Susmuffin Talk 20:29, 5 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Support Although I am less than certain that having seperate articles on Arda and Middle-earth is fully warranted.John Pack Lambert (talk) 16:28, 6 January 2020 (UTC)
 * I don't think it is fully warranted, . The statement that Middle-earth is a continent and Arda is the Earth seems to be original research. See Talk:Middle-earth. In any case, "Middle-earth" is the common name for Tolkien's world. And little or none of his fiction is set in other parts of Arda (if in fact other parts exist). However, I'm not sure how to tackle this. There is clear duplication, but how to merge?--Jack Upland (talk) 19:19, 6 January 2020 (UTC)


 * Is this still a subject of discussion, given that you're updating the entry above, Jack Upland? "Arda (Tolkien)" is now a redirect to Cosmology_of_Tolkien's_legendarium. As for the terms used, Arda is defined in the Index of The Silmarillion p317 as "'The Realm', name of the Earth as the Kingdom of Manwe." while Middle-earth is defined on p341 as "The lands to the east of the Great Sea", so there is no WP:OR there. The maps in The Lord of the Rings are, by the way, labelled "The West of Middle-earth at the End of the Third Age", and they show the western part of a continent, which is consistent with the definitions just quoted. As for "other parts", yes, there was Numenor, a large island or small continent; and Aman, a continent and home to Valinor; Numenor was destroyed and Aman was physically removed from Arda at the end of the Second Age. Valinor is discussed at length in The Silmarillion. So, in the Second Age, Aman + Numenor + Middle-earth were the lands of Arda; in the Third Age, Middle-earth was, as far as we are told, alone on Arda. The historical and cosmological aspects are, at least, different in character; overlap might be better addressed by careful editing. Chiswick Chap (talk) 14:12, 14 May 2020 (UTC)