Talk:Arete (excellence)

Mel Etits changed the title of this page and has taken some very important stuff out of the article.

The word "Arete" is like the word "logos" in that there are multiple meanings of the word but they are chronological.

Logos first and foremost means "word", it later evolved into "reason" and then it carried over to "law or reason undergirding the whole cosmos". Then St. John expands the definition to include Jesus Christ.

Arete is just like "logos" in this respect.

The purpose of this article is talk about the "first" meaning of arete and its impact on Greek civilization. Only later does it take on the conotations of 'virtue' in the scientific sense and always retained its first meaning.

Werner Jaeger writes, "Arete was the central ideal of all Greek culture". That is the purpose of this article. "Virtue" was not the central ideal of all culture but arete is in the sense of it being about "excellence". It is about the Greeks always striving for excellence.

H. Rackman in his translation of "Virtues and Vices" writes about the scientific meaning of arete meaning virtue as "ethiki arete". Mel, you deleted this important sentence. You have got to realize that arete "grew" in conotations.

This needs to be returned to Arete (paidiea), or (culture) or (Greek culture) For this is the purpose of this article. WHEELER 14:12, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)


 * There's no point having multiple articles for different meanings of 'arete'.
 * The article as it stands covers the meanings from the beginning, but takes as its title the most central meaning in later thought.
 * 'Arete' never meant 'paideia', though it did come to mean 'virtue'. Mel Etitis ( &Mu;&epsilon;&lambda; &Epsilon;&tau;&eta;&tau;&eta;&sigmaf; ) 14:45, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Look you are missing the point. Arete meaning virtue is directed to virtue. Arete (culture) is the force behind Greek culture has a whole. I don't want to have multiple entries for arete BUT IT IS BLANTANTLY FALSE to say that Arete (virtue) because that meaning to that word is after many years a latter connotation. It is false to say arete is virtue. You are sadly missing the whole point. WHEELER 15:25, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)

You can also see that there are TWO different Dictionary entries from Younge on virtue and arete (virtue). WHEELER 15:30, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Look Mel, I have read Werner Jaeger, Edith Hamilton, Kitto, and others. I am Greek. I live and talk with Greeks. I know here what I am talking about. The best solution is for [Arete (Greek culture)] and for [Arete (virtue)] have it as a redirect to virtue itself. This should be the proper ordering. WHEELER 15:46, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)


 * Well, you're not ancient Greek, which is what we're talking about; I'm afraid that knowledge isn't passed on genetically. More importantly, it of course only reflects part of the story to name the article 'arete (virtue)', but then it only reflects part of the story to name it 'arete (paideia)'; the former, however, is informative in a way that the latter isn't. You're operating from a certain PoV concerning the nature of Greek culture; I'm trying to produce a better article.  I might be wrong, but shouting at me isn't going to get us anywhere. Mel Etitis  ( &Mu;&epsilon;&lambda; &Epsilon;&tau;&eta;&tau;&eta;&sigmaf; ) 17:49, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)


 * Alright, here's my thoughts as someone who has no Greek heritage, doesn't speak Greek and only learnt the Greek alphabet and pronunciation so I could read bits of philosophy better... 1) There are separate articles on both virtue and paideia, and this article should probably have links to both. 2) Since the two concepts are related to each other, it would be good if that relationship were explained in this one article, instead of having two separate articles because then I would have to link to them both from the article I'm trying to write (Nicomachean Ethics).  3) I like arete (virtue) better than arete (paideia), but only because virtue is English and paideia isn't--I had to follow the link to find out what it actually meant.  Perhaps arete (excellence) would work just as well as arete (virtue)--I think the concepts are similar enough that it doesn't matter.  4) If one meaning came historically before the other, that fact should be mentioned in the article.  5) If the philosophical jargon is different from primary meaning listed in Greek dictionaries (arete does not mean virtue) that should be mentioned too, probably on the disambiguation page as well--since I come from Aristotle, I am most aquainted with his meaning.  6) I am not an expert on arete, and I haven't read all the history of this article, so that is all I can really say. WhiteC 20:53, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I'm a little surprised to see 'virtue' described as philosophical jargon (and as not being in the dictionary); it's there even in the abridged Liddell &amp; Scott, with references to Plato and Euripedes. In the modern Greek dictionaries I have to hand, it's the only meaning given in Pring and the first meaning given in William Crighton; in Abbott-Smith's A Manual Greek Lexicon of the New Testament it's given as a primary (primarily philosophical) meaning. On the other hand, I'd be happy to see it changed to 'Arete (excellence)' (so long as someone else does the laborious job of changing links to the page, which I did when I moved it from 'Arete (paideia)'). Mel Etitis ( &Mu;&epsilon;&lambda; &Epsilon;&tau;&eta;&tau;&eta;&sigmaf; ) 21:29, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * I used the word jargon because the average reader doesn't know what arete means, not because it isn't in the dictionary. If I use the term arete in a different article, it isn't sufficient to just link here, that article has to give a short explanation of it in order for the general audience to understand.  Thanks for clearing up my confusion about contemporary Greek usage. WhiteC 07:20, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)


 * Would 'Arete (Greek)' be a less contentious title? Or 'Arete (Ancient Greek)' if more precision is necessary? I am willing to make the link changes if necessary, although it would be nice if several of us shared the chore. --Theo (Talk) 00:24, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)


 * The trouble with 'Arete (Greek) is that it's not clear what it's distinguishing the article from ('Arete (Chinese)'?. 'Arete(ancient Greek)', or the like, is a bit better, except that I'd hope that the article said something about its use in moden Greek.  If 'virtue' is held to be too narrow, then I'd be happy to go along with 'excellence'.  And yes (he heaves a weary sigh), I'd help with the link changes (there aren't too many of them in fact).
 * Incidentally, should we be spelling it aret&#275;? That's pretty standard in print sources; it doesn't bother me either way, to be honest, but if anyone else thinks that it matters, I can make the changes. Mel Etitis  ( &Mu;&epsilon;&lambda; &Epsilon;&tau;&eta;&tau;&eta;&sigmaf; ) 10:50, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * So, would Aret&#275; be the most neutral title? Subtle stuff, eh? --Theo (Talk) 14:17, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)


 * OK, consensus having been achieved, the title is now 'Arete (excellence)', and the business of changing links from other articles is proceeding apace. (The spelling (as 'aret&#275;') would only be for the body of the article, as Wikipedia doesn't at the moment allow special characters in article names.) Mel Etitis  ( &Mu;&epsilon;&lambda; &Epsilon;&tau;&eta;&tau;&eta;&sigmaf; ) 15:51, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Wow! Those link changes were fast. When I got there the cupboard was bare! Thanks for the tutorialette on article names.  I keep learning from you and I appreciate it. --Theo  (Talk) 18:05, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)

A suggested subsection: "Changing meanings of arete"
The history of ideas requires flexibility and tolerance for multiple interpretations, for it to be usefully suggestive and rich. The "virtue" in the title does need to be disambiguated: it means to a Greek as much "essential character" as its narrowed modern meaning. A little toleration would go far to alleviate unnecessary misery in editing this article. --Wetman 21:59, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)


 * Fair enough, though I'm not sure that there was any claim that 'virtue' was being used in its modern sense. One of the problems of Classical scholarship, though (for Greek as well as for foreign scholars) is that it's very difficult to pin down a clear meaning for 'arete' in the various writers, including Aristotle.
 * Unfortunately, a lot of the editing in the last few days has been rather hasty, resulting in misspellings of words that had been spelt correctly, closing quotation marks with no opening marks, etc. The various editors (especially those with strong views) need to calm down a bit if we're to achieve consensus.
 * on the subject of understanding Aristotle, one of my favourite exam howlers came from an Aristotle paper here at Oxford a few years ago: &ldquo;If Aristotle had meant 'happiness' by 'eudaimonia' he'd have said so.&rdquo; Mel Etitis ( &Mu;&epsilon;&lambda; &Epsilon;&tau;&eta;&tau;&eta;&sigmaf; ) 22:26, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * How about, [Arete (excellence)]. [Arete (virtue)] confines the meaning of arete to only the moral attributes.  Arete is a bigger word.  It means excellence pure and simple.  This idea of excellence is what drove ancient Greek culture.  [Arete (virtue)] needs to go to virtue.  Mel, you are constricting the meaning of the word when you just title it (virtue).  The General meaning should be the title of the word.  Arete does have multiple meanings but all the multiple meanings fall under THE GENERAL CATEGORY AND MEANING  of Arete as excellence. WHEELER 14:49, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * I am with User:WhiteC when he states: "Perhaps arete (excellence) would work just as well as arete (virtue)". This seems to be the best.WHEELER 14:52, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * I saw that Mel also suggested this use. I see agreement with Mel, WhiteC and myself.  I think that this is a very happy occasion.WHEELER 15:03, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)