Talk:Argentina–England football rivalry

Record
A list of the all the matches (friendlies, non-FIFA?, etc) would be good.

POV edits reverted by me

 * "for an obvious foul by Alan Shearer on the Argentine goalkeeper" - I remember watching the match and as far as I remember everybody was initially mystified, so I dunno about "obvious" - a lot of comment was made afterwards about how no such foul would have been given in the Premiership.
 * "Such criticism is common in England, whose fans and press are renowned for accusing teams who defeat them of cheating. " - such citicism is common everywhere AFAIK. Look above about how the Argentines believe that England and Germany conspired against them in 1966. Jooler 17:30, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
 * It's common knowledge in the football world that the English media and fans are insane with the way that they always say their opponents 'cheated' when the English lose. Often they blame the ref as well. In some cases, such as Barcelona-Chelsea in 04-05, the commentators spend the entire match complaining, which leads to disgruntled Englishmen sending death threats to the match officials. And in saying "no foul would have been given in the Premiership" - that isn't relevant, as the officiating in England is completely different from the actual rules of the game - completely different from the way the game is officiated in the rest of the world. Peoplesunionpro 03:01, 30 October 2006 (UTC)


 * First: I am neither English nor Argentinian, so no view through fan-glasses here. To the points:
 * 1. "Accusing teams who defeat them of cheating" is a generalization not worthy of encyclopedic mentioning. The tabloids in England are merciless towards local teams, the Tree Lions or foreign teams, but there is nothing special about that, critical and overemotionalizing press is cleary not a solely English phaenomenon. Basicly i agree with Jooler.
 * 2. Alan Shearers foul was not abovious, but it was a clear foul. I watched it back then, i was baffled when the referee disallowed the goal (therefor not obvious), but in the replay (i just rewatched it again to be sure) Shearer put his elbow into the face of goalkeeper Roa, hindering from getting to the ball. It was 100% surely a foul, the ref was completely right, and if anyone commented that this foul would not have been given in the PL, he is not neutral or fair to the ref. In every football league in the world this is a foul, as long as the ref spots it. So the phrasing "obvious foul" should not be used, since many viewers didn't spot it at first, but there should be no doubt left, that the refs decision was correct.
 * Greetings, Jonathan. Jonathan0007 (talk) 08:40, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

Considering putting this article forward for deletion
I'm considering putting this article (as well as some others on football rivalry) forward for an AfD debate. My reasoning is as follows:


 * In world class football, rivalries exist between many teams, to the point that most teams have some back-history and rivalry with each other. An article on the topic is therefore unessessary and makes a moot point. A simple summary paragraph of the nature of the rivalry with some examples could be summarised in the articles for each team. It doesn't need a reference to every single game the two sides have played since the inception of the rivalry.


 * This kind of article seems to be promoting a higher than normal amount of pro-nationalistic comments, weasle words and generally a lack of NPOV which hurts its credibility.


 * Certain single incidences could have their own article or an article to the game in which they occured. An example here would be 'hand of maradona' incident which is already has its own article called Hand of God goal, the Anglo-argentine football rivalry may better be explained there.


 * Rivalries this short are not generally given their own article... why therefore should a football game? What is so important about this particular football rivalry as to warrant an article on it? I also doubt someone will search wikipedia trying to find this article. If it were I who wanted to know more about it, I'd search the argentine and english football team articles. I wouldn't expect it to have its own article and therefore wouldn't search for it. Consequently I suspect this article has a low vistor count.


 * The content of the article on the whole is good, but putting all this in one place does not complement the information or make the topic more cohesive. Infact an article on Major football rivalries already exists. Interestingly this rivalry isn't on that article, which suggests to me a lack of co-ordination about where this football rivalry information is being distributed. Perhaps it is time that we have a think about how it will be co-ordinated.


 * The English football team also have rivalries with Germany, Wales, Republic of Ireland, Scotland and France in addition to argentina. Perhaps an article on English football rivlary could be made, but personally I dont think any of these rivalries including this one are worth their own article.

So as a result I am suggesting that this article be partially cut down and reinserted into more relevant pages such as the argentine football team, english football team pages as well as incident specific pages such as the hand of god article. I will leave this here for a week or so and guage opinion on the matter and then from the arguements put forward I will decide whether to nominate this for an AfD. WikipedianProlific(Talk) 14:57, 12 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm not going to say you don't have a point to start a vote on AfD, but there are a couple of things you are forgetting:


 * Having this article solves the problem on having the same information both in the Argentina national football team and the English counterpart.
 * If a single goal has an article, why wouldn't a rivalry?
 * Major football rivalries has only club-level rivalries, and a couple of references to nationals.
 * Argentina has other rivalries other than Brazil and England, but currently those are the most important ones. I guess something similar happens with England.
 * Breaking down the article would create a series of very short articles; wich doesn't sound like a better option.
 * just my 2 cents. --Mariano (t/c) 15:39, 12 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Agree fully with Mariano. Even having read the reasons for this article possibly being put forward for deletion, I still see no reason why this article should not remain. ♦Tangerines BFC ♦ · Talk 18:49, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

I wonder if the solution may be to broaden the scope of this article into two seperate articles on English football rivalries and Argentine football rivalries, as both sides have rivalries with other nations to, which makes this article a bit 2 dimensional, because it suggests the rivlary with argentina is unique for england and vice versa, which we've established isn't the case for either side. If we consider another rivlary, the Oxbrdige Rivalry thats a unique rivalry between two universities, so the article is justified, but here the rivalries are not specifically unique or out of the ordinary. The interesting thing is, in the case of England, the rivlary with Germany, France, Wales and Scotland is often more prominent than the one with Argentina, yet here is the one with the article. I wonder if this is the same for Argentina, perhaps these days the rivalry with Chile is more obvious than that with England? So maybe expanding this into two seperate, broader articles? WikipedianProlific(Talk) 07:02, 13 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't know from the English point of view; I can only tell you from the Argentine one: Brazil has been the greatest Argentine rivalry since somewere after the 50s/60s, and still is. England started frowing into one since the 1966 world cup (or perhaps a bit earlier).
 * Uruguay was an important rivalry, but Uruguay hasn't been doing pretty well for quite some time, and it can't be called a rivalry anymore; what's more, we actually helped them in the last two World Cup Qualifiers (and I can even source that).
 * Chile has never been a football rivalry inspite of the political conflicts we had in the past, probably because they never got to be that good neither in national teams nor clubs.
 * So, I think it is accurate to say that Argentina's main football rivalries are Brazil and England.
 * About splitting in Argentine rivalries and English rivalries, you will have duplicate information there. --Mariano (t/c) 12:17, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Agree again with Mariano. I would also say that the rivalry England have with Scotland and Germany is on a similar level to that with Argentina, but any rivalry between England and both France & Wales is not more prominent than the rivalry with Argentina. ♦Tangerines BFC ♦ · Talk 19:47, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Hernan Crespo talking about a match between Argentina-England: ''Es un clásico (sic) internacional. Es lo más cerca que hay a un Argentina-Brasil y significa mucho'' (Is an international derby. Is the closest thing to an Argentina-Brazil and have a great significance) Jor70 19:17, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Newly reference: Alfio Basile A 'classico' for Argentina is a game against Brazil in first place, England in second and then Uruguay," he said. telegraph.co.uk --Jor70 20:30, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

The article is good as it is and should not be deleted. After reading the reasons for possible deletion i'm still convinced all given alternatives are second best. The article need a little more neutral phrasing, thats all. Greetings, Jon. Jonathan0007 (talk) 08:52, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

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"Argentina's major rivals"
Hi everyone.

At the beginning of the article says:

"England is regarded in Argentina as one of the major rivals of the national football team, matched only by Brazil and Uruguay."

I would add Chile at that count that is a country that has a sport rivalry with Argentina originated by non-sport reasson being very similar to this one. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Angel Millo (talk • contribs) 20:20, 29 March 2020 (UTC)