Talk:Argentine–Chilean naval arms race

Some ideas
Hi Ed17,

thanks for your invitation. I would like to tell you some ideas about this issue. First of all, I have never read so much about it, although I wrote the init of the article Pactos de Mayo, but actually I gathered the information for other article ,and then ...

Few days ago I read Pablo Lacoste's Argentina, Chile y los Pactos de Mayo (1902) and discovered again as a interesting theme. For "your" article I would propose:


 * 1) Background information:
 * 2) the undefined boundary issues,
 * 3) the Ch-Ar preponderance race in South-America
 * 4) the Ar. fear of Brasil respective the Ch. fear of Peru-Bolivia
 * 5) The arms race in Europa, the German Fleet upbuild
 * 6) the failed attempts for a arms race control agreement in Europa
 * 7) disproportionalness of the Ch. and Ar. Fleet regarding the number of inhabitants and economic power
 * 8) the interest of the great powers to sell weapons
 * 9) the first step to peace: El abrazo del Estrecho (little excurs to "El Cristo de los Andes" a monument rised at that time)
 * 10) the Pactos de Mayo and the agreement how to stop the race, consequences
 * 11) aftermath: the Brazilian threat

I think Lacoste goes through every of this issues, he uses a lot of figures, not easy to understand but we should do it and if neccessary we can put it in diagrams.

My policy in wikipedia is to write as less as possible (or as few as possible?). But I have some know-how in Diagramms and maps. --Best regards, Keysanger (what?) 15:45, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
 * I was going to get a basic summary done so it can be moved into the mainspace, but that's not a bad plan for developing it into a full article. I don't think I have the sources for all of them, though. Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 20:07, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
 * So, I have most of the basics complete... I think. I could use help on the boundary issues (which I do not know as much about), in finding sources for the disproportional population and income of Argentina vs. Chile, and El abrazo del Estrecho, which I haven't seen mentioned in my sources. I don't think we'll need much on the fears, although we need to mention them, along with the arms race in Europe, which didn't kick off until 1898 at the earliest interpretation. Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 11:23, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

Torpedo boats
The table says "4" TB, but I think there were 6:
 * Mutilla, Contreras, Thomson and Rodríguez were built by Yarrow of Poplar (later Yarrow Shipbuilders) and transported in boxen to Valparaíso. Mutilla and Contreras were assembled by Lever, Murphy & Co Shipyard in Viña del Mar in 1898, Thomsom (later Mery) by Arsenal Naval de Talcahuano in 1900 and Rodríguez was assembled in the yard "Las Torpederas" in 1899. Videla and Hyatt were built (and assembled) in Yarrow. See Buques de la Armada construidos en Chile by Germán Bravo Valdivieso.

You can take a look to my unpublished new list under User:Keysanger/LL. --Best regards, Keysanger (what?) 16:11, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Hi, sorry, I didn't watch this page, so I didn't see your comments. Scheina says that four were ordered in 1895 and six in 1896. Do you have the right year? (just making sure!) Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 20:07, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Conway's 1860-1905 confirms this as well. Four 300 ton torpedo boats were delivered in 1896, and the other six, of 140 tons, were delivered in 1896–98. Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 11:31, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

We agree, except 140t <-> 311t


 * 6x=Mutilla, Contreras, Thomson, Rodríguez, Videla and Hyatt Viper class destroyer built in Yarrow. 140t. delivered 1896-98 (Viper class says the ChN)
 * 4x=Muñoz Gamero, Orella, Riquelme (ren. Lientur ) and Serrano, built by Laird Brothers, delivered 1896, 311 t

Lacoste says, in Cuadro II, that Argentina bought 22 torpederas between 1880 and 1893. Do you have a reference in your books for?.

A mention of the Baring crisis should be there also. Reference: http://www.argentina-rree.com/7/7-021.htm of http://www.argentina-rree.com/historia.htm

--Best regards, Keysanger (what?) 11:39, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
 * I only count twenty, but twenty-two if you could the ones delivered in 1901. Lynch, Condell, Simpson, Fresia, Lauca, Quidora, [a third class torpedo boat, 1880], Sargente Aldea, No. 7, No. 8, No. 9 (all three delivered 1891), [a second class torpedo boat built 1890], Colocolo, Tucapel, Glaura, Guale, Janequeo, Rucamilla, Teguelda, Janequeo [same name, different ship, first was wrecked]. Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 05:22, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

I mean Argentine torpedo boats. If we count the Chilean TBs, then we should count the Argentine also. --Best regards, Keysanger (what?) 14:42, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Oh, I see where you're going. I'll count them either later today or tomorrow. Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 12:14, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
 * I just removed them all, actually. The torpedo boats weren't integral to the race; they were drops in a bucket compared to the heavier warships. Focusing the table on the major ships keeps the table as uncomplicated as possible, too. Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 08:20, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

Thanks
Thanks for the rights. I will use them when necessary. --Best regards, Keysanger (what?) 11:39, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

Tables
Hi Ed,

The current table contains "jumps" and it is not continuosly in the time. I think we can replace it through at the right side and the tons can be added. The new table can be read linear from top to down.

I added the table of Lacoste.
 * Well, the jumps are purposeful so that we don't have empty cells in the table. I thought having the flags would be enough to avoid confusion. Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 05:22, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

Missing info
There's no info on the circumstances and timing of the order for the two cruisers eventually acquired by Japan. Specifically was it before or after the orders for the two Swiftsures? And when did Argentina sell them to Japan?--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 04:37, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Argentine ships Independencia and Libertad
Argentine ships Independencia and Libertad should not be considered in the Argentine-Chilean naval arms race. They were coastal defense ships, not ocean ships, which could not have been acquired in response to Chile, but to Brazil, which also had such ships. --Muwatallis II (talk) 06:09, 4 July 2020 (UTC)