Talk:Aris Velouchiotis

A Typical British View
Who is C.M. Woodhouse, what right does he have to remark about Aris ? Any quote can be matched be a counter quote. Please remove this one. My family was decimated be the fascists. Aris was a symbols of our hope for freedom. I still cry when I think of what they did to this man. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.240.130.75 (talk) 03:59, 21 July 2009 (UTC)


 * "I don't like this cited historical view, expunge it!". Pretty typical response of your run of the mill communist bigot. Their "fight for freedom" was, in fact, a fight to fill Greece with gulags and concentration camps for the "reactionaries" (ie anyone who didn't tow the communist party line). Make no mistake, these red-fascists were no Spanish republicans nor leftist democrats ; nothing could be farther from that. In any case I can't be bothered giving more weight to the Aris-lover's tirade, as it is part and parcel Stalinist rhetoric. Cry all you like, but fanatical Stalin-worshippers' censorship will not take precedence over historians' views. 79.107.248.142 (talk) 17:09, 25 October 2009 (UTC)


 * How is Woodhouse's point of view at all impartial? The KKE fought the Nazis while the Brits enabled, empowered and armed the Nazi collaborators (after WW2). Of course Woodhouse would say such a thing!



I'm sorry, but any moron who looks at the evidence, such as British Foreign Office reports, or ELAS records, or German records, knows that ELAS fought and fought and fought the Germans. And anyone who claims that it was they who attacked EDES in October 1943, rather than the other way round is either very stupid or ... lying their heads off.

At Meligalas Ares was far too soft. The battalionists executed all their hostages - if this was in view of ELAS, Aris should have topped the lot of them. Instead he took them as prisoners to Kalamata, where no doubt they were released by the gendarmerie. (All described in F.O. docs.)

I know you far-right Greeks think we are really thick and will continue to swallow all your lies, but eventually even the stupidest West European will realise that there there is something odd about supporting collaborators and their descendents (maybe the further release of official papers will contribute to our I.Q. points ...). Bougatsa42 (talk) 06:46, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

It's very upsetting to read this article with it's obvious british bias. My family was decimated by the fascists durring WWII and then again by the british after the war- their crime ? They fought against the fascist. They were never political but for the love of our country we still pay the price today. Woodhouse et al had their own agenda and the truth was not included. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.74.64.156 (talk) 13:44, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

I really feel for families like yours. It is an extraordinary story - what makes it even more so is the fact that it is so common. 1.5 to 2 million people were members of EAM-ELAS, many left-wing but also conservatives and royalists. For decades such people were not eligible for pensions or posistions in the government, police or armed forces. And let's not talk about the harassment, beatings, torture, murders and imprisonment.

Ares was the one who insisted that everyone should be encouraged to join the resistance. Haritopoulos describes Ares as a patridolatris, a lover of his native country. If you read the speech he made at Lamia, he talks constantly about the Greek people (and about himself hardly at all). He always knew about the danger that the British represented (this is well documented) and if he had had more support from others with influence the country might not have had years of terror and oppression Bougatsa42 (talk) 06:38, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Attention
This is a well written and neutral article, please do not change it and cause disputes. I made only one minor change: The circumstances of his death remain unclear. I have no evidence that he commited suicide. I hope you permit me to state that. Thanks

I agree with your sentiments. In its current form (24th May 2006), this a very balanced article, presenting both views on Velouchiotis's life and actions without degenerating into partisanship. Integrating the Greek Civil War at large into the article, would only serve to turn it into the POV edit war that the afformentioned entry has become. A strong keep for the article in its current form on my part. 85.196.4.183 22:09, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

What is this well written and neutral article means?! have any of you read the book of Haritopoulos or you just put it there, in all sources, as a decoration?! Every hero that has fought for a cause can't be persived as neutral!! than he can't be neither a hero nor a symbol!! is the article of Che Guevara neutral enough? their acts have judjed them in the people's consiousness, not you! p.s. oh, and the fact that he has been a symbol of the communist cause, that is neutral?? It's the people's cause! after all the same communists have tried to get rid of him, so come on! Beltenebros 18:35, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Comments on older version of the article
This article is clearly a product of the ever-bulging "cult of Aris" by the radical Greek left (similar to the cults of Che Guevara, father-Stalin and chairman-Mao in other regions) and does little to discern fawning hagiography from historical fact about the Greek civil war.

In several excerpts the author supresses historical fact as well as completely turn the truth on its head, in order to support the Greek communist insurgents or slander their opponents who extended from nationalist right-wingers all the way to liberal centrists in the Greek political spectrum.

"[...] the first time that he appeared under the name Aris Velouchiotis. From this time on, this name became legendary in Nazi occupied Greece with multiple victorious guerrilla actions such as the blasting of the Gorgopotamos rail bridge, the Krikelo battle, the Mikro Chorio battle and other lead by him."

Here, as in most other parts, the author of this article withholds the fact that nationalist Greek resistance forces were just as active as their communist opponents in fighting the German Nazi occupators of Greece. The blasting of the Gorgopotamus bridge was not an act singularly "lead by Aris Velouchiotis", as alleged, but a rare common effort in which Napoleon Zervas's Nationalist EDES resistance forces participated, just as well as Velouchiotis's communist forces. Unfortunately, this was to be the last occurence of cooperation between communist and nationalist resistance forces, as the communists proceeded to attack non-communist resistance fighters in several occasions, in order to secure post-war dominance in Greece..

"The post-war regime was exhibiting its brutality, not coincidentally upon the figure perceived as the personalization of the National Resistance."

I don't know where to start with all this. First of all, by the end of German occupation, Velouchiotis came to personify not National Resistance, but the communist powergrab for violent imposition of a Stalinist regime. This happened because the communists

a) Attacked all other non-communist resistance forces in the still-occupated country to ensure they were the only armed forces left in a post-war Greece.

b) Forcefully recruited rural populations or inflicted violence and murdered those who refused

b) Systematically terrorized and slaughtered Greek rural populations that were seen as "negative to the socialist cause". The events at Meligala was once such occurence, as the battle was not between Greek resistance fighters and German collaborators, as the author deceptively alleges, but between Greek communist elements and Nationalist forces, the latter of which had been amassing at the region to avoid an all-out attack by Velouchiotis's group, on account of their anticommunist leanings. After the nationalists lost the battle, the communists proceeded to perpetrate one of the worst slaughters of the civil war, completely decimating the population of the defiant Meligalas, including the non-combatant inhabitants and the families of their opponents.

The story about Velouchiotis's "hanging head" is one of many (diverging) myths, intended to lionize him as a communist hero (in the vain of his posterior Che and others), and villify his democratic opponents as "brutal". What we know for a fact is that Velouchiotis was, indeed, seriously wounded after clashing with Nationalist forces ; whether he was killed during battle (as some claim), or commited suicide after being incapacitated in battle (as others support) is still a matter of some debate. What is not for debate, however, is that, despite his fawning hagiographers, Velouchiotis died not as a loved folk hero, but as a hated perpetrator of communist atrocities, at the expense of all those who refused to comply with his plans for the imposition of stalinism in Greece.

In this article, Greek nationalists and centrists are characterised "fascists" in the vain that all political opponents are characterised and treated as "fascists" by hardline communist parties throughout the world - be they the American Democratic Party, the British Conservatives, or the German Social-Democrats; that is, in no meaningful sense of the word.

The article on Aris Velouchiotis clearly and blatantly violates Wikipedia's NPOV policy, so I respectfully request that either changes be made to reflect the historical truth, or at the very least a "disputed" disclaimer is added.


 * I can only agree with some of the anonymous remarks above. Velouchiotis is one of the most controversial Greeks. Some incidents of his life remain murky (and manny more of the Civil War) --[*]CubicStar 23:23, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

I think you realise that all that you 've been saying untill now is without any evidence whatsoever and in the typical line of the patriot greek boy! i think you should reconsider your attitude towards a hero by all means because he fought even for you, so that you can be here right now and write all these nonsense.. I am tired of people that would indulge in so an easy critisism of the blood that has been spilled, simply by exorsicing it as communist. Are you really stuck in that concept of right agains left? Aris Velouchiotis doesn't need your critics or your neutral and balanced point of view (so easily used by those that in reality didn't have to make any sacrifises!)and ofcourse he has earned his place for his fight, and a desperate one, against much more superior forces : and THAT is the fact! The political point of view is exactly political, it is not fight, struggle or blood shed for your freedom and mine... It is really sad that even now,in our so called Society of Knowledge that spitting upon those people continues, i don't even know if in the schools some kids will ever know who was he. I am not a communist, but sure enough an admirer of a fighter who gave his life. Would you give it whatever your political view? I hope I could, like him and all the others with him..Beltenebros 18:55, 5 June 2007 (UTC)


 * "Stuck in the concept of right against left"? The poster boy for that would your the false hero "Aris", who engaged in systematic slaughter of Greek partisans and resistance fighters, simply on account of them not being communists. If that is your definition of a "freedom fighter", I would hate to live in your parallel universe of left wing indoctrinated nonsense. Freedom fighters fought against the Nazis, not against Greeks who happened to disagree with their particular ideological dogma. 94.68.158.127 (talk) 02:20, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Although I agree with some thinks you pointed out, I can only say that at least the "antartes" (guerillas) fought against the Nazi occupiers and did not betray their country, like some right wing organisations did. People like Papadopoulos (yes, the Junta colonel) and Grivas and many more, collaborated with the Nazis against the mostly left wing RESISTANCE. After the war, those that fought for their country were persecuted and hunted whereas the traitors were placed in high government positions. And this is not communist propaganta (although they are really good at it), this is a historical fact.

Nationalism is one of the main ideas behind Fascism and Nazism (although one can argue that Stalins' USSR was ultra nationalist), so yes Greek Nationalists like the LAOS party are of fascist mentality.

As for communist attrocities, I can only say that there are less attrocities carried out by either Cuba, China, Venezuela etc. than by Bush, Blair and their allies.

I'm not a communist or a socialist but some things need to be made clear.unsigned

So then, you're kowtowing to the Stalinist line to the last "t", but want to claim neutrality for yourself. Whatever. I'm not even going to take the time to dispute this bs. It's only the typical stance of the usual communist greekling, after all (even when reconstructed). "Anyone who's not a communist, is a fascist", slander of the opponents, and distortion of historical facts come easy for the Fidel-worshipping nimrods.193.92.81.97 17:35, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

I will not try and say that the left wing was the only one that was resisting in Greece. What I would like to see in the article is the percentages of right and left wing. Also to be fair on why he went back in the mountains after Varkiza you should tell more of the circumstances of the treaty. That the left wing was the only one getting disarmed etc. The article as is seems one sided. Many historical facts are missing. The word "legitimate government" is, to say the list, disputed due to historical circumstances. The pact of Yalta should also be in this article showing that Greece was one of the grey areas in the division of the world. unsigned
 * I would think again of using the word "disputed" when later referencing the highly disputed and
 * overly simplistic Pact of Yalta

I've added a recent book (which I own but haven't read yet). Has anyone read it so as to contribute more? Are there more recent sources? (cubic[*]star | (Talk)) 20:32, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

On Suicide
First of all, the comment on Dionisis Charitopoulos's version about a "heroic" suicide is overly sentimental. Although it is portrayed dramatically, the word heroic is not used; it is depicted more as an act of despair rather than a heroic statement. I'm also pretty sure that Aris himself would not have commited suicide as a means of registering his legend, as Charitopoulos seems to suggest, since suicide was considered a demeaning act by high-ranked communists at the time.

On the actual fact of his death, although it cannot be proved as a suicide as no real evidence exists, there are some facts that contribute to the theory. First, none of the opposing soldiers claimed to have actually killed him; this was common during the following civil war, and even the gun that was used would be displayed next to religious icons. However, fear of vengeance could also attribute to this fact. From a psychological point of view, Aris was reported at the time to be in deep sorrow, feeling betrayed and disappointed. He was not talking at all to his comrades for hours, and the last journey that he was making had no apparent purpose, since his plans for a second resistance had already failed. Also, visual material of his decapitated severed head during the triumph that followed, depicted it on the side, and some witnesses claim that there was a hole on the back from the bullet that he fired in his mouth.

None of these have been confirmed, and very few evidence exist today. I wrote this comment as a suggestion to anyone willing to conduct further research. As of now, I could not yet find a reliable photo of the head; there seems to be a film, but I have yet to find it. It may exist in a private archive.

the photo of aris's and tzavelas's heads in trikala square and the one of his head on the ground can be found simply by searching for velouchiotis (in greek) on google. turn the tab on "pictures".

Lamia talk
Is there anything that could be mentioned on the talk he gave in Lamia? I have heard about it but have not found a transcript, or a video (in case any existed).Elikarag (talk) 17:18, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

What about his albanian origin ?
He was an arvanite (aka albanian). You mention his souliote (christian albanian) origin. Could this be the power behind his views that Greece's border should be in Lamia? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.73.252.43 (talk) 17:07, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

I can understand why you haven't signed this claptrap. 20:46, 2 December 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bougatsa42 (talk • contribs)
 * Why Bougatsa42? Do you have something against the Arvanites and the Chams? They are ethnic Albanians and they are proud of it! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.190.17.35 (talk) 22:23, 20 January 2018 (UTC)

Sexuality
Below follows some of the worst crud I have ever seen on wikipedia:

If we consider Aris as a historic figure, we have to mention facts about his sexuality. Aris was homosexual and sadist (after been raped when was young) and there are also witness reporting him as a pedophile. Moreover, it would be wise to mention the dispute regarding his real motives about the war, which might be the gathering of wealth (through stealing from people living in the ELAS occupied areas) rather the resistance. Reference: ''- UK Army Military Report Document: HS9/1524/3-Job No 247314 ο Captain E. N. Barker M.C. 307 Coy, RASC - United Nations (Court of War Crimes) document: SECRET VELOUCHIOTIS, Ares, - 22666/A (revealed 2005) - Book: We fell among Greeks by Captain Denys Hamson, 1957 - S.O.E. Report by Captain Donald Hamilton Hill, 1944 - New Zealand Officer William Jordan in his book "The Truth about Greece" - Germanos Demakos (nom de guerre pater Anypomonos), communist co-fighter and comrade of Aris, in his memoirs book, p. 364-369 (2004 edition) - Special Operations Mediterranean (Force 133), Dec 1944. The VELOUCHIOTIS file''

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.176.22.178 (talk) 23:11, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

Haritopoulos argues against him being homosexual, pointing to a youth in which he chased women, and the unlikelihood of a homosexual being accepted as an andarte leader. If you are talking about the Maratheas boy, at least one version of events suggest that he was molested by another ELAS member.

I note that 4 of your references are British, and another one UN. You might be interested in Ole L. Smith's article on the reliability of British agents as source material - Bill Jordan in particular is given short shrift, but others do not fare much better. Woodhouse was insisting for years after the war that Sarafis joined ELAS at the point of a gun (!). (Foreign Office reports are quite open about their strategy of propaganda against ELAS and Ares.) I haven't read the Demakos book, and it is hard to get hold of where I live.

Smith's article available here: http://thesis.haverford.edu/dspace/bitstream/handle/10066/5376/Smith_11_3.pdf;jsessionid=1753FBE666FE39D4388DDF02CC7091A9?sequence=1. Bougatsa42 (talk) 06:57, 3 October 2012 (UTC) Why we should consider one UN document and four Military reports of the Allies as propaganda and not an article by Smith? Even leftish history researchers such as Dionysis Charitopoulos reports that Aris was unable to have any form of active sexual act (ref: Oi neoi Fakeloi interview, Dec 2003), because his sex organs were partially amputated when he was in exile on Giaros. But, even we consider Smith's article as true, a person who is sexually interested in both men and women, could be considered as bisexual, not straight. Moreover, sadism is also a sexual and social expression which cannot be left off from this wiki article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.176.22.178 (talk) 11:53, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Yes but you don't have to rely on Smith, you can just follow back to his original sources, Woodhouse, Jordan etc. I have read Jordan, and it is truly not believable. He says for example that Ares himself was 'not averse to a bit of looting' - I would have thought that every one knew that he was totally against looting or stealing from villagers, and there was a death penalty for it, and this is why ELAS had such support. Jordan on the other hand recounts proudly how when the village near to where they were staying did not give them enough firewood, they started burning the paling fences that were a feature of the village.

What Charitopoulos says about Ares' sexuality seems quite plausible. I have, however never seen any convincing evidence that he was a sadist and a rapist. I was happy to believe an account in Fleischer about Ares being blind drunk and enraged beating suspects with a whip. But when I looked at Fleischer's references, the principal one was Lefterias, one of Ares' enemies. He told Richter in an unpublished inteview that an (unnamed) member of ELAS, related this event to him; hardly convincing. Other references are to Hamson, Jordan etc, whom Fleischer uses quite a lot in his book. I was, however, tempted to believe the story until I realised the relationship between Lefterias and Ares. I am also influenced by the great love that the andartes had for Ares. They were a mixed bag, but there were many ordinary decent Greeks among them. He was admittedly very, very tough, but I can't imagine them loving Ares as they did if he had been a brutal sadist. Bougatsa42 (talk) 17:59, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

My only information is from Charitopoulos, his points seem reasonable but not necessarily conclusive. I am not personally interested in his his sexual orientation, but the stuff I have read (on the web) about him actually hating women does seem to be a total fabrication. Bougatsa42 (talk) 20:20, 3 October 2012 (UTC) I keep trying to fix the paragraphing but unsuccessfully. Bougatsa42 (talk) 20:21, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Spelling Ares/Aris
I am finding it very difficult to keep misspelling the name Ares, so I have gone back and changed my usage to be always Ares. If I am still inconsistent I apologise.

The name of the Greek God of War in English usage has always, always been spelled Ares, look in any English book on mythology. (The second vowel is an eta, which has suffered from ioticism like many Greek vowels and diphthongs but was originally was close to an /e/ sound.) We know that Ares based his name on Ares the God, and both English and Greek sound the same, so why change the spelling in English? The title of Charitopoulos's book looks terrible to the native English eye. Like changing Aphrodite to Afrodite. Whenever someone does the much needed reedit to this page, they might like to consider changing the name back to the English norm. Bougatsa42 (talk) 19:53, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Name change
I have changed the spelling of Ares to 1) make it the same as Greek God of War as spelled in English, and 2) fit the norm in the native English-speaking world - examples to hand include Mary Stewart, Louis de Bernieres, David Close, Chris Woodhouse, but I am sure I can find more. Obviously there are people who spell it the other way, but this spellling is driven by native Greek speakers, who are simply ignorant of the correct English spelling.

I have already flagged this above and got no response. If the change upsets anyone, perhaps they should try editing Ares to Aris on the Classical pages (dominated by native English speakers) and see the reaction! Bougatsa42 (talk) 21:46, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

Well, I wasn't banking on an intelligent response, but for a Greek to produce the names of four non-native English speakers as authorities on English spelling beggars belief.

How incidentally are we supposed to pronouce this word, given that there are no or virtually no parallels in English? Best I can do is alibis, pronounced by English speakers as /alibyze/. And should we be changing the spelling of Euripedes, Thucydides etc to satisfy the whims of Greeks who claim to know English? Bougatsa42 (talk) 02:34, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the. —Community Tech bot (talk) 16:07, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Kaloskopi Velouhiotis PC070087.JPG