Talk:Arkady Babchenko/Archive 1

not dead
https://twitter.com/AP/status/1001831643345227778

per Associated Press, "BREAKING: Russian journalist Arkady Babchenko, who was reported killed in Kiev, shows up at a news conference in Ukraine."

Spelf (talk) 14:34, 30 May 2018 (UTC)
 * see also here Leutha (talk) 01:22, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

possibly could be was killed
The second sentence of the "Staged death" section currently says "In a press statement, the Kiev police department said Babchenko possibly could be was killed as a reprisal for his work as a journalist." which is both self-contradictory and appalling grammar. The source cited is in Ukrainian so I can't easily check whether the actual statement was "possibly", "could have been", "possibly could have been", "possibly was" or "was". Thryduulf (talk) 14:56, 30 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Now it is probably not that important (and the source is in Russian), but the meaning of this sentence (judging from the source) should be that the Kiev police that he was most likely murdered for reasons related to his activities as a journalist.--Ymblanter (talk) 16:40, 30 May 2018 (UTC)

multiple awards
The current source for Babchenko having won multiple awards refers to a press statement by Kiev police department, which is clearly not a reliable source.Leutha (talk) 01:20, 31 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Be WP:Bold and remove it.Lihaas (talk) 02:50, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

Reorganization
I have ordered the page in consistency with other biographies. However, it was laden with POV-pushing.Lihaas (talk) 02:50, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

Russian literature // 21st century, reads:
„Leading "new realists" include Ilja Stogoff, Zakhar Prilepin, Alexander Karasyov, Arkady Babchenko, Vladimir Lorchenkov and Alexander Snegiryov.“ —Pietadè (talk) 04:29, 31 May 2018 (UTC)
 * When I created the article it was linked from seven other articles (I added wikilinks in a couple of cases, but Babchenko has been already mentioned in all seven).--Ymblanter (talk) 05:49, 31 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Added to etwi his connection with 2014-05-29 (and here is a note that there was not enough room for him in the copter)—Pietadè (talk) 08:32, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

Why?
Could it be clarified why Babchenko's murder needed to be faked in order to expose those supposedly plotting to kill him? As the article currently stands, this doesn't make any sense. 173.88.241.33 (talk) 03:04, 1 June 2018 (UTC)
 * This is what the press is asking too, for example see "Arkady Babchenko's fake murder: questions that need answering". -Lopifalko (talk) 03:06, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

Iskusstvo Voiny and Art of War
The article stated "Babchenko was a publisher of the magazine Iskusstvo Voiny (Art of War)." (obozrevatel.com). I removed this as it was potentially wrong because, as cafebabel says, "His writing is driven equally between a desire to testify to what he's seen and experienced, and to rehabilitate former combatants. It's for that reason he joined up with a former soldier who had fought in Afghanistan, and under whose initiative had created, in 1998, the website called 'The Art of War'. More than two hundred former soldiers from previous wars have the opportunity to express themselves, through art and poetry, as well as in the magazine Iskusstvo Voyny." (my emphasis). -Lopifalko (talk) 03:35, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

Reliable sources removed
I added the following, sourced to The Irish Times, whose source was removed: "After leaving the armed forces in 2000, Babchenko worked as a war correspondent for more than a decade"

I added the following, also sourced to The Irish Times, whose source was removed: "In the backlash, his home address was revealed to the public, he then received personal threats and some people called for him to be stripped of his Russian citizenship."

I added the following, sourced to The BBC, whose source was removed: "In 1995, while studying law in Moscow aged 18, Babchenko was conscripted into the Russian army and served until 2000 in the North Caucasus. -Lopifalko (talk)
 * If Lihaas continue removing these sources, I am going to take them to ANI. This is qualified as vandalism and is blockable.--Ymblanter (talk) 05:55, 1 June 2018 (UTC)


 * I agree that removal by Lihaas was wrong, and the sources are just fine. But I think the following segment needs to be removed: Many journalists mentioned that the Ukrainian authorities, by delivering fake news, significantly damaged the value of investigative journalism. Thus, Alexander Baunov, Editor in Chief of Carnegie Moscow Center, said that a false death of a character is a long known literary technique, but it was never released at the state level so straightforwardly, and warned that manipulation with truth creates a solid ground for conspiracy theories. I think this is undue on this biography page. It would be OK on a page about sting operation, but we do not have such page. My very best wishes (talk) 02:15, 7 June 2018 (UTC)
 * I agree that if we had an article on the string operation, the whole paragraph could have been moved there, but we do not have such a page, and I am not sure whether the operation is notable on its own. In this situation, I believe, it is better to have the statement (related to the propagation of the fake news by a state) in this article, and at some point I illustrated it by a couple of examples - one was Baunov, and another one was removed at some point. We can of course remove Baunov as well, but then someone else comes and says that the statement is unsourced.--Ymblanter (talk) 05:28, 7 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Well, I just do not see why the criticism of Ukrainian government should be included on the BLP page of this journalist. Just because he agreed to help the police to catch the criminals? My very best wishes (talk) 13:57, 7 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Because the incident with the stage murder of Babchenko is not considered in a separate article yet. So far, the key points on this case are in this article. And this is not a criticism towards the "Ukrainian government" only - this is a criticism towards the such approach itself, as this case is covered in Reliable Sources.--Nicoljaus (talk) 14:48, 7 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Because he found himself inside this incident.--Ymblanter (talk) 15:28, 7 June 2018 (UTC)


 * Btw we should not buy this "catch the criminals" story, as soon as the only source for the story is the secret service itself. We do not publish all the disinformation which Russian FSB provides, why should we take seriously everything from FSU?--Ymblanter (talk) 15:30, 7 June 2018 (UTC)
 * We already said that the operation was criticized. Adding an opinion by a couple of journalists does not add much. Besides, this is not "fake news" (as these journalists tell), but intentional disinformation by authorities to misled criminals, as usual in sting operations. Hence the next day public disclosure, etc. My very best wishes (talk) 17:03, 7 June 2018 (UTC)
 * As far as we know, the Prime Minister of Ukraine Groisman made an official statement condemning the "murder Babchenko". And Minister of Foreign Affairs of Ukraine Klimkin at a meeting of the UN Security Council accused the neighboring state of organizing this murder, as if it was real. Should we believe that they were among the suspects in the crime who could not be informed about the operation of the SBU? 2.132.81.12 (talk) 17:27, 9 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Intentional disinformation by the authorities using media is fake news by definition, and this is what the references confirm. They just call it fake news.--Ymblanter (talk) 19:24, 7 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Actually our first source, the BBC, says "staged" and repeats "sting": "Ukraine staged the murder of a Russian dissident journalist in Kiev on Tuesday in what it said was a sting operation to foil a Russian assassination plot. ... Ukrainian security chief Vasyl Hrytsak said a sting had been set up to catch hitmen paid by Russian forces." -Lopifalko (talk) 03:35, 8 June 2018 (UTC)
 * And you should have enough experience to know better that one does remove the sentences from the article and at the same time discusses them. Let us discuss in a civilized way.--Ymblanter (talk) 19:34, 7 June 2018 (UTC)
 * I do not see any reason to cite and promote views by Alexander Baunov. He is a former Russian diplomat (read "propagandist"). My very best wishes (talk) 03:02, 8 June 2018 (UTC)


 * Let us be serious. Should we disqualify all former diplomats? He is a respected journalist and an editor-in-chief of a major outlet. I also had a reference to La Vanguardia which said the same thing but the reference was removed. When I have time later, I can search for more sources about the fake news connections.--Ymblanter (talk) 05:42, 8 June 2018 (UTC)
 * He wrote a large and qualitative article, specifically on this topic. But this is a very common opinion. See, for example: By faking Babchenko’s murder, Ukraine has smeared itself--Nicoljaus (talk) 06:33, 8 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Yes, sure, and we already included this criticism with a reference to international organizations. Why do we need an additional reference to the publication and a WP page of this guy, page that he created himself for promotion? link. My very best wishes (talk) 14:09, 8 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Interesting. It looks indeed the page was created hours before I added a link. (I did not check the page history).--Ymblanter (talk) 15:04, 8 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Mvbw, besides the critisism from organizations there is a need for some analysis, isn't it? But I fully agree, that the history with Baunov's article is suspicious and it would be better to illustrate this thesis by the ref to another author.--Nicoljaus (talk) 15:44, 8 June 2018 (UTC)--Nicoljaus (talk) 16:13, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

FOOt-BaLL et reliability, just a while ago read a statement: mr Avakov stating that the Ukrainian police forces (~2,000 men) shall return the situation in Donbass to where it started (where did it?), so, why should WE meddle about?!? and, why did not the organisers of the 1st and the 2nd German Wars did not use the simple solution, police forces, shame on them...—Pietadè (talk) 15:14, 8 June 2018 (UTC)
 * There were several SPA-COI accounts (possibly the same person) related to Carnegie Moscow Center. Edit history of these pages is telling. My very best wishes (talk) 15:11, 8 June 2018 (UTC)
 * So, please cite someone else, not Baunov, if needed. But once again, we already included sourced criticism by several international organizations. My very best wishes (talk) 19:19, 9 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Would this one be good enough? It clearly relates the action of the Ukrainian government and fake news.--Ymblanter (talk) 19:24, 9 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Yes, sure. Please use it you need to source something. My very best wishes (talk) 20:03, 9 June 2018 (UTC)