Talk:Arne & Carlos

Adding more citations and context
I am a new member of the WikiProject Textile Arts, and this article may be relevant to the project. My particular interest is in knitting, and I would like to flesh out articles related to figures in knitting and influences on the modern knitting hobby. Please forgive me for any intrusions. My goal here is to add more reputable sources.

Sourcing is the most important part of an article (from my limited understanding), and I am not 100% the ones I have added are the best. I've cross-checked with Reliable Sources/Perennial sources. It seems a few (e.g., Cosmopolitan) might need context for a quality assessment. If you notice any discrepancies or have a complaint, do let me know. Orcanami; or the 🌊⬛🐬⬜🌊(talk) 01:21, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

External links modified
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I have just modified 2 one external links on Arne & Carlos. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070312010916/http://di.se:80/Nyheter/?O=Index&page=%2fAvdelningar%2fpressreleaseShow.aspx%3fpressSeqNo%3d38574%26pressCp%3d2 to http://di.se/Nyheter/?O=Index&page=%2fAvdelningar%2fpressreleaseShow.aspx%3fpressSeqNo%3d38574%26pressCp%3d2
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20160304042903/http://www.alta.museum.no/sider/tekst.asp?side=660 to http://www.alta.museum.no/sider/tekst.asp?side=660

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Edit requests
Happy Thanksgiving, all! Arne & Carlos is a client of my firm, Mister Wiki, which is a Wikipedia paid editing service. I am requesting some simple changes be made. Please see below. Thank you!


 * 1) For the reference 12. Hartz, Susanne (June 13, 2012). "Press release" (PDF) (in Norwegian). Retrieved November 19, 2017, the press release is in fact English not Norwegian, as the reference currently states.
 * 2) In regards to reference 13, here is what Arne & Carlos have to say directly about the matter: "This reference is in fact about a solo exhibition that the national museum devoted to our work in 2012 -  for our 10th anniversary  - which is not actually mentioned in the Wikipedia text but the reference is there - and which is quite different than having some of our work on permanent display." So we can just take it out all together.
 * 3) In regards to the UPE, tag, my firm hired  to create this page but since we signed the joint statement of ethics for communications firms on Wikipedia, we are making an attempt to engage in dialogue with the community to make changes. This was prior to that occurrence? So should he still disclose on the talk page so we can remove that tag? Thank you!
 * I've completed the first and second request, as they seems quite uncontroversial (though I have no objections with reversal of the second request). No comment on the third request. Sky  Warrior  00:45, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Very much appreciated, SkyWarrior. I will figure out #3. JacobMW (talk) 02:03, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
 * , since I've had involvement in the contribution of this article, I have disclosed on the talk page and also my own user page. Can the UPE tag be removed? JacobMW (talk) 02:12, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
 * To put it bluntly,, no, and for a very simple reason: you weren't the one who edited the article. The person who you paid to edit the article needs to disclose their payment, not you, and afaik they have not done that. Until that has happened, the tag stays. Sky  Warrior  02:21, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Understood, . No problem. JacobMW (talk) 02:23, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Hey, disclosure has been made by . JacobMW (talk) 14:50, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Since it's no longer undisclosed, I'm going ahead and removing the tag. Sky  Warrior  15:58, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
 * just reopening this discussion. Tony / JLAN - our firm was hired to update the Arne & Carlos page since it was classified as a stub. Now we are back to square one. Since I have a COI, I am aiming to have an open discussion with editors on WP. If you could let me know specific areas that need to be improved, I'd be happy to revise and submit a new draft. I think this would be more productive than just reverting the content of the entire page. Thank you. JacobMW (talk) 21:55, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
 * 1) Think about the mission of Wikipedia - giving people accepted knowledge that they can learn from. We are not here to sell shit or promote brands. Not what we do here. 2) find high quality independent sources about "Arne and Carlos". Do not use the company website, press releases, or anything with a name like "hypebeast".  "Hypebeast".  WTF.   3) Write content that summarizes the independent sources you found.  Try to avoid adjectives. 4) Post it here.  Jytdog (talk) 22:05, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I will be in touch with a new draft. Perhaps I am wrong, but I would argue that Hypebeast is one of the most notable publications that currently exists in fashion. To even be mentioned by them is a pretty big honor, and I'm sure other brands cite Hypebeast as a source on WP. Regardless, be in touch with a draft. Thanks for the consideration. JacobMW (talk) 22:16, 24 November 2017 (UTC)

And please read WP:ONUS, just because something is sourcable, doesn't mean we have to include it. The burden if on those wanting to include something to gain consensus. For example: the fact that one of the owners grew up on a farm is nothing but shaping the image of the company by a PR-writer. It has no relevance to the article other than to build the brand's image. The minutia of every step of the journey the individual owners had with the company is inappropriate: this article is about the company, not the people. If the people are notable, we can have articles on them. This should just contain basic information about the company as a company. Compare the tone of what your firm wrote to Cracker Barrel and Ace Books, both of which are featured article on a company. See the huge difference in tone? TonyBallioni (talk) 22:28, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Perfect, thank you for the input. Will review this and be in touch. JacobMW (talk) 22:33, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Alright, so, I've updated a new version of the page to reflect two main things: 1) Remove 'fluffy' and 'promotional' language 2) Cite more independent / credible sources.


 * You can find it here in my sandbox. Let me know your thoughts. Thank you for the consideration and I hope we can expand this page. JacobMW (talk) 15:17, 25 November 2017 (UTC)
 * A lot of this is still unsourced. What is the source for them founding it in 2002 for example? (This is something paid/conflicted editors often do. They know stuff because they have talked with the article subject or people representing the subject, and the stuff they know goes right into WP, just like it would if the paid/conflicted editor were writing any PR copy.  Wikipedia is not PR copy.
 * The content in the "Influences and design" repeats content that is already in the section above. This is pure padding.
 * In the "Tours and expositions" the stuff about them going to Korea, Australia, and the US is trivia. We don't give "status updates" with every little thing they do.  See WP:FART.  This is an encyclopedia, not a blog, not social media, not foursquare, and not a proxy for their website.
 * The stuff about museums was actually a copyright violation from this site or this site that nobody caught before now. See your Talk page.
 * That is all the time I am willing to put into this today. Jytdog (talk) 16:50, 25 November 2017 (UTC)
 * FIRST COMMENT: Thank you for taking time out of your day to do this, Jytdog. I will review your notes and incorporate them into a new draft for you or another editor to review. Much appreciated. JacobMW (talk) 16:54, 25 November 2017 (UTC)
 * SECOND COMMENT: In regards to your comment about where the source is for them being founded in 2002, I added a couple.


 * In regards to the “Influences and design” section, the reason I repeated it twice is because I’ve read that sources shouldn’t be added to the introduction section of pages, so I needed to include this somewhere in the actual article where a source could be cited. That being said, I can either take out the second mention entirely and leave it with no source in the introduction, or leave it as it is with a source.


 * In regards to the “Tours and exposition” section, that is a fair point. If you feel it would pass better without that section, I can take that out.


 * Updated draft here if you or another editor could kindly review whenever is most convenient. JacobMW (talk) 17:28, 25 November 2017 (UTC)
 * , please forgive me if I give you some unsolicited advice: just drop this and walk away. You may perhaps not know that paid editors who are too demanding and take up unreasonable amounts of volunteer time can be seen as (and sometimes also be blocked for) being WP:DISRUPTIVE. Since the MisterWiki matter is a contentious one, with the potential to have some quite extensive fall-out, I don't think this is a good time to be focusing on collecting your thirty pieces of silver here. You will of course do as you think fit. I've put some advice below to tell you how to make an edit request; that process is quite back-logged, so you might wait several months for a response. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 18:39, 25 November 2017 (UTC)


 * thank you for the advice, I appreciate it. After reading WP:DISRUPTIVE, I don't feel I've been disruptive, but thanks for bringing this up to my attention and I'll do my best not to be too aggressive or annoying with my edit requests. It is not that I am concerned with 'collecting my thirty pieces of silver', but rather, the client was hoping to extend their article since it was considered a WP:STUB, and now a majority of their content has been reverted, so I am trying to fix it. I will read the information you placed down below regarding edit requests, thank you. JacobMW (talk) 18:47, 25 November 2017 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry,, I should have provided you with a link to WP:PAYTALK. I don't feel that you've been disruptive either, but I wanted to warn you of that risk. For what it's worth, I do think that this would be a good time to keep your head down. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 19:40, 25 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Thank you for providing a link to WP:PAYTALK, I will keep this in mind moving forward. Obviously, no pressure, but when would be a good time to engage back in these activities on behalf of my clients? I've been keeping up to date with the discussions at COIN, but will anything come of that you think? And if so, when? I just do not want to stand idle by and let my client's pages get taken down. The least I can do is back up my point and work with the community to achieve what they are asking of me. JacobMW (talk) 21:28, 25 November 2017 (UTC)

Conflict of interest
At least one major contributor to this article appears to have a close personal or professional connection to the topic, and thus to have a conflict of interest. Conflict-of-interest editors are strongly discouraged from editing the article directly, but are always welcome to propose changes on the talk page (i.e., here). You can attract the attention of other editors by putting request edit (exactly so, with the curly parentheses) at the beginning of your request, or by clicking the link on the lowest yellow notice above. Requests that are not supported by independent reliable sources are unlikely to be accepted. Please also note that our Terms of Use state that "you must disclose your employer, client, and affiliation with respect to any contribution for which you receive, or expect to receive, compensation." An editor who contributes as part of his or her paid employment is required to disclose that fact. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 18:39, 25 November 2017 (UTC)

Edit request
Arne & Carlos is a client of my firm, Mister Wiki. Long story short, the article was originally a WP:STUB so my firm was hired to expand it. An editor hired by firm directly edited the article which caused a WP:COI, so after feedback from the community, I have written a draft to be reviewed which can be found here. Disclosure has already been made on this talk page above. Thank you for your time. JacobMW (talk) 18:54, 25 November 2017 (UTC)

Within the edit request itself, kindly delineate only the specific changes requested, rather than submitting a duplicate version of the article where changes are not immediately highlighted.  Spintendo  ᔦᔭ   14:28, 4 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Much appreciated, . This draft has actually been updated due to our discussion here. Thank you for responding back. Should we consider this closed? JacobMW (talk) 16:27, 4 December 2017 (UTC)
 * I have removed that content as unambiguously promotional., to restore content that had already been removed by two different editors, without any talk-page discussion and while you had an unanswered edit request open here, strikes me as the height of unwisdom; another time, if you are given advice elsewhere in Wikipedia, I suggest that you discuss it on the talk-page of the affected article before even thinking of taking any action on it. As you know, COI editors are strongly discouraged from editing articles directly; in practice, that discouragement often takes the form of reversion of any mainspace edit.
 * Wikipedia is supposed to be neutral, factual, and based on independent reliable sources. So if the first sentence of the article reads "Arne & Carlos is a Norwegian clothing and design house", we expect to see sources that confirm that. Are there any? One source says they are two textile designers; another calls them "a pair of knit-wits". Perhaps I've missed something, but this looks like an intentional attempt to puff up the importance of the subject and to deceive our readers. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 19:07, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
 * "knit-wits", clever! Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 19:37, 5 December 2017 (UTC)

Revert
User:Justlettersandnumbers - about this please do see the AfD in this set of diffs. Jytdog (talk) 18:57, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Yes,, I saw that, but have only now actually looked at what was added here. Please see my addition to the section above. If some bona-fide volunteer editor wants to improve this article that would be excellent, but I think that paid editors should stay clear of it for long time now. Regards, Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 19:12, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
 * OK. Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 20:04, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Just getting around to this. Not calling anyone out here but just pinged you all to get on the same page. I think it would've been more productive to edit and work around the draft as it was, but I suppose I'll leave it up to anyone who wants to add to this article to do that. Please let me know how I can help. I'm happy to propose a revised draft of the previous one if it would make it easier on your end. Let me know. Thank you. JacobMW (talk) 16:18, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

Topic
There are sources that can be used, but perhaps the topic of the article should be the designerduo instead of the company? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 20:47, 5 December 2017 (UTC)

And they´re famous for their Christmas balls. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 20:57, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Pinged you in above discussion. Feel free to add to it if you are willing. A&C are a client of mine so I would like to refrain from directly editing. Let me know how I can help you. JacobMW (talk) 16:19, 6 December 2017 (UTC)
 * , have you seen any source that actually confirms that these two people formed a company? I have not. Unless that can be reliably sourced, I suggest that we remove any remaining reference to a company and remove this page from the scope of the companies WikiProject. They are clearly perceived as a knitting/design duo, so I agree that that should be the focus of our article. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 18:58, 6 December 2017 (UTC)
 * I have not, but I learned they existed yesterday. It stands to reason that they´ve formed some sort of company (perhaps primary sourcable to some norwegian company register), but not even their own website seems to mention it (see the yarn-page for example ), so it seems of minor importance. Category:Norwegian designers? Category:Knitting? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 21:46, 6 December 2017 (UTC)
 * just rekindling the discussion here. I think it is fair to call them a designer duo vs. a company. The only reason the article referred to them as such was due to 's suggestion as he had said: This should just contain basic information about the company as a company. Compare the tone of what your firm wrote to Cracker Barrel and Ace Books, both of which are featured article on a company. See the huge difference in tone?
 * The draft contained a lot of pre-written content that could be used to build the article. Again, please let me know how I can help but as it stands, I believe there is enough content and citations for this stub to be grown. Appreciate your time. JacobMW (talk) 19:41, 9 December 2017 (UTC)

COI edit requests
Hello! Arne & Carlos are a client of my paid editing service. Long story short, this article was originally a stub so my firm was hired to expand it. The article ended up going through AfD and was voted to be kept. Now, I am just circling back with the following edit requests so it can hopefully be expanded. Would much appreciate whoever can get around to this. Thank you. JacobMW (talk) 17:02, 19 December 2017 (UTC)


 * Update / reformat lead section


 * Add 'History' section


 * Add 'Displays' section




 * Add 'Books' section



 Spintendo  ᔦᔭ   18:58, 19 December 2017 (UTC)


 * Hi, ! Why was this declined? Would just like to know so I can learn moving forward. JacobMW (talk) 17:16, 20 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Scratch that, just saw the tag at the top saying some of the writing sounded promotional. Would you be open to reviewing if I rewrote it? Thank you! JacobMW (talk) 17:17, 20 December 2017 (UTC)

COI edit request part II
Happy holidays! Since the above edit requests got rejected, I've since revised them to sound less promotional. Would much appreciate anyone who can look this over and review. JacobMW (talk) 16:12, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

- thank you for helping out. Comments below, let me know if I structured them properly. The reason why I would ideally like to salvage some of these edits is so that article can be formatted instead of bullet points and also so we can take it out of stub mode if possible! Thank you, Spintendo. JacobMW (talk) 18:11, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

HNY! Just wanted to follow up regarding the below comments. Thanks. JacobPace (talk) 17:26, 3 January 2018 (UTC)

✅ This is already present in the lead. _____________________________________________
 * Update / reformat lead section

History section. _____________________________________________ ❌Unreferenced
 * Comment - Will discuss more at bottom but the idea that all of the cited information is in the body and for this to be mentioned in the lead.

_____________________________________________ ✅ _____________________________________________
 * Comment - Several sources discuss them establishing an entity in 2002, such as this one. Could we maybe call it a fashion company?
 * ✔️ Reply to comment: If this is so, why can't we call them an entity?  Spintendo  ᔦᔭ   00:51, 7 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Whatever you want to call them is fine. However, in the article this was entirely taken out so I think it's a part of history worth mentioning if we could add it back in. Feel free to change as you see fit:  I also updated sources with any author information I could find as with all below. As for these two in particular, for one I could only find the first name of the author and for the second there was no author (but I tried to fill it out regardless). I would really appreciate if you could fix anything that needs fixing if I did it wrong. JacobPace (talk) 02:18, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

_____________________________________________

✅

_____________________________________________




 * Comment - Understood. So just reorganize the citations to include all of the variables?
 * ✔️ Reply to comment: It means that if the author is given, and the other sources have the author listed, new sources should do the same, and list the author if it's given.  Spintendo  ᔦᔭ   00:51, 7 January 2018 (UTC)
 * This has been fixed below:

_____________________________________________

✅

_____________________________________________ * Add 'Displays' section ❌

_____________________________________________



✅

_____________________________________________

_____________________________________________ Some of the books have been translated into 14 languages.
 * Add 'Books' section


 * Comment - If they are citable through WorldCat, could I get back to you with all references?
 * {{highlight|{{checked}} Reply to comment: A short listing of their published books is appropriate for the article. To place a collection of books on this talk page for your proposal, do the following: When you locate the books on WorldCat, click on the book and look at the top right hand corner of the page. There you will find "Permalink" Click on that and copy the link. Then, in the Wikipedia text editor, click Cite and choose Book from the dropdown list. Paste the permalink you copied earlier in the URL box and click the magnifying glass to search. The fields will self-populate with the book's information. Click Insert and then manually remove the
 * {{cite book|title=Norwegian knits with a twist: [socks, sweaters, mittens, hats, pillows, blankets, and a whole lot more|date=2014|publisher=Trafalgar Square|isbn=9781570766985|url=http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/942567348|language=English}}
 * {{cite book|last1=Nerjordet|first1=Arne|last2=Zachrison|first2=Carlos|last3=Rhoades|first3=Carol Huebscher|last4=Hartvig|first4=Ragnar|title=30 slippers to knit and felt: fabulous projects you can make, wear, and share|date=2015|isbn=1570767416|url=http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/946976364|language=English}}
 * {{cite book|last1=Nerjordet|first1=Arne|last2=Zachrison|first2=Carlos|title=Make your own ideabook with Arne & Carlos: create handmade art journals and bound keepsakes to store inspiration and memories|date=2016|isbn=9781782214120|url=http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/973200245}}
 * {{cite book|last1=Nerjordet|first1=Arne|last2=Zachrison|first2=Carlos|last3=Hartvig|first3=Ragnar|last4=Rhoades|first4=Carol Huebscher|title=Field guide to knitted birds: over 40 handmade projects to liven up your roost|date=2017|isbn=9781782215394|url=http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/987591846}}

_____________________________________________



{{afc comment|1=Individual books ought to be citable through WorldCat.}}

thanks for all your help. I've gotten back above. Can you please also reformat the article so that it's not read in bullet points? JacobPace (talk) 02:18, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

{{reflist-talk}} _____________________________________________ {{PImplemented}}   Spintendo  ᔦᔭ   20:23, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

Recent changes reverted
, I've WP:BOLD|ly reverted your recent partial implementation of an edit request here. While the discussion Wikipedia talk:Conflict of interest/Archive 30 has not reached any firm conclusion, it's clear that there's at least a possibility that content created by paid editors might fall under the "native advertising" restriction of the FTC. We can't put a "this content was paid for" notice in the article (as the law apparently requires, but our own rules would not allow), so it seems to me that our only safe course is to remove the paid-editor content completely. There is absolutely no doubt that is here to promote these people, and Wikipedia does not tolerate promotion of any kind.

JacobPace, I'll take this opportunity to remind you of WP:PAYTALK. It's OK under our current rules to make an edit request, but dripping on like a broken tap could eventually be seen as WP:DISRUPTIVE; editors have been blocked for it. That said, I've personally no objection to a brief list of publications. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 20:15, 7 January 2018 (UTC)
 * I can see how you would find that writing to be promotional, however, to be fair, those statements are true and I've come across many articles with similar writing. I'm not here to use Wikipedia as an advertising platform. I understand what Wikipedia is. I understand where advertisements belong and where they don't. For this project in particular, I've been paid to literally just expand it enough so it's no longer a stub - that's it.


 * In regards to your comments about WP:PAYTALK, the only reason I'm having to continue to do this is because I'm constantly thrown through more and more hurdles, forcing me to have to come back for more edit requests because I didn't do something correctly. I'm not trying to be disruptive. In fact - I very much appreciate 's time and effort put into my projects where he isn't being paid a dime. I've submitted multiple requests and somehow we continue ending up in the same place, simply because I'm a paid editor trying to follow the rules and many people here seem to have a problem with that (which I get). I'm not drowning in cash over here, I'm literally just trying to help a client do something that I'm sure a passionate Wikipedia editor who likes knitting and fashion would've eventually done at some point.


 * Anyhow, I would very much appreciate if you could let me know the best way to proceed for the end goal: getting this article to no longer be a stub. I'm willing to do whatever. Please let me know. JacobPace (talk) 20:46, 7 January 2018 (UTC)


 * just following up. Please let me know what I should do to make this easiest on your end to take this out of stub mode. At this point, all of the individual edits have gotten out of control but I can just add in the sentences that would like to be added below if you'd like? JacobPace (talk) 16:28, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

Jan 11 COI edit request
New edit requests below per the suggestions I recieved, mostly concerning metadata. Thank you to whoever can do this. JacobPace (talk) 00:01, 13 January 2018 (UTC)

Request A
Add 'History' section


 * Add 'Displays' section




 * Add 'Books' section

Request A reply
❌  Spintendo  ᔦᔭ   15:11, 14 January 2018 (UTC) ________________________________

Request B reply
✅ As for the remainder of your request, i've added the list of their publications, since indicated that they would have no objection to this. Regards,  Spintendo  ᔦᔭ   15:11, 14 January 2018 (UTC)


 * Thanks, . I'm still not 100% clear why you weren't able to implement those changes in Section A, but thank you. JacobPace (talk) 17:25, 16 January 2018 (UTC)