Talk:Aromanians/Archive 2

RECENT DELETION
The paragraph which was removed, was removed on the grounds that the author of the information being referenced, is unreliable: http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Wikisource:Proposed_deletions/Archives/2006/09#The_Works_of_Author:Risto_Stefov.

The same author has added other views/text(s) on Wikipedia, and his work has been questioned: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Macedonia_%28region%29#Real_meaning_of_the_word_MACEDONIA

Please share your views on this recent edit.

Philhellenism 06:39, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Dispute tag
Any reason why this article is still disputed? If there isn't, the tag should probably be removed. Khoikhoi 04:43, 20 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I see no reason of dispute in this article. And if someone does, should use the talk page for clarifications first. Hectorian 04:46, 20 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Removed. Khoikhoi 04:51, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

DISPUTED
We would have removed the disputed caption, but we didn't know how to. We are still learning how to use Wikipedia.

Philhellenism 06:20, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

YOU HAVE MINORITY PROTECTION DELUSIONS
I am Greek of Aromanian decent. My father speaks the language. I do not consider myself a minority by any meaning, or at least not more than someone from west Athens is a minority in the Athens population.

If you happen to be in Greece just TRY to contest the Greekness of any Aromanian. BE PREPARED TO HAVE YOUR ASS KICKED!!!!

And a note for some nationalist Greeks as well: Greekness is not a matter of blood (only).

My penny's worth... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.23.5.243 (talk) 21:19, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

This article is just for laughs.Pure anti-Greek propaganda.
As if Greece is oppressing them.They are considered Greeks.They consider themselves Greeks.Many prominet figures of Greek culture are Aromanians.It's rediculous the way this article is surrounded by the notion of the bad Greek state even though that Aromanians have absolutely equal position with any other individual in Greek society.This article is crap.Pure ant-Greek propaganda.

It's not Anti-Greek Propaganda, It's Anti Greek-Propaganda. The Aromanians don't have equal position in Greece, no minorities do. Alex 202.10.89.28 11:39, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

That's why there are Aromanians Politicians, army men etc ; The family that baptised me is of Aromanian anchestry you asshole and noone discriminates anyone of these people in work or anywhere else.In fact noone cares.155.207.250.54 13:49, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

And do they consider themselves Aromanians? Do they speak Aromanian in public? Even if they do, can they learn it in any form of school? The family that baptised you are called "Latin-speaking Greeks" by everyone else. That way, Greece is 100% Greek. If I'm an asshole, you're a tool. Apparently the Greeks invented democracy. It must be only if you're Greek. Alex 202.10.89.28 10:24, 19 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes, yes, and yes, if they wanted to. When he was education minister, George Papandreou asked Vlach leaders if they wanted their traditionally unwritten language to be taught in schools. They politely declined. The Vlachs are, on the whole, so well-integrated that they have no interest in being a minority in Greece. The right not to belong to a minority cannot be dismissed. As for those who invented democracy, they regarded and treated foreigners (barbarians) with far more contempt than their modern counterparts. Don't confuse democracy with twentieth-century Canadian or Australian-style multiculturalism; they're not the same thing. ·ΚέκρωΨ· (talk) 15:49, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

It's not only anti-Greek it's Anti Aromanian
A pure Romanian propaganda article. How can a non-speaker of the language and a pseudo-historian write an article? Eeamoscopolecrushuva 15:59, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Britannica
Francis, why are you removing the Britannica ref?--Ploutarchos 08:56, 27 April 2007 (UTC)


 * The solution for an issue like this is to quote better sources than Britannica. I'm pretty certain the identification of Arumanian as a dialect of Rumanian is made in parts of the relevant literature, but in such issues we should be quoting specialist material. Non-specialist tertiary reference works like Britannica are too often imprecise on such questions. I'll check next time I get time to visit the Romance department library. Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:41, 27 April 2007 (UTC)


 * "Aromanian, otherwise known as Macedo-Romanian or Vla(c)h is a dialect of Romanian, but sometimes considered as a distinct language..."
 * Price, Glanville (Ed.): Encyclopedia of the Languages of Europe, Oxford: Blackwell, 1998.
 * bogdan 12:57, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

"related groups" info removed from infobox
For dedicated editors of this page: The "Related Groups" info was removed from all Infobox Ethnic group infoboxes. Comments may be left on the Ethnic groups talk page. Ling.Nut 16:43, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Pictures
We need pictures of Aromanians. Did the copyright on the previous ones expire? I don't know how to add any but I suggest Pitu Guli, Tose Proeski and Gheorghe Hagi because they would be the most obvious. Alex 202.10.89.28 10:42, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

ARE YOU JOKING????
70% of the Aromanians live in Greece and the most obvious to put their pictures are three Romanian citizens????? I can think of 50 important Greeks to put instead - and more important.... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.23.5.243 (talk) 21:22, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

I think you are tired. Go to bed and leave us alone. Only Greorghe Hagi was romanian citizen. - Camaradianis

please REMOVE this article from WikiProject Greece
Aromanians have nothing to do with greeks. AND please tell to the romanian wikipedia to remove aromanians articel from Romanian Wiki project. Aromanians are not greeks, aromanians are not romanians. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Camaradianis (talk • contribs) 15:58, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

I concur for the removal... We are neither Romanians, nor Greeks. The common people in Romania do not consider us as being the same, regardless of what politicians and historians would have you believe. Ask the common person (the "average Joe") in Romania if an Aromanian is a Romanian and he would say NO; a "makedon" is anything but Romanian, this is the truth. There are huuuuge differences in culture with the Romanians, hard for outsiders and academics to understand this, but they clearly are and any public survey would confirm this. The language is similar you might say, but the Portuguese language is even more similar to Spanish than Aromanian is to Romanian, yet no one would dare declare the Portuguese as being Spaniards, but merely a related group. Also, Aromanian and Romanian ARE NOT mutually intelligible on a level besides phrases like "Mom i want to eat" and similar ones. Don't listen to linguists, just freaking listen to an Aromanian song on youtube and you will reaize that you won't understand more than 2-3 words, let alone make sense of the lyrics.

Regarding the Greeks: I have been to Greece and while the cultural differences are a lot less marked than with the Romanians, the language is proof that we are not part of the same ethnic group. I am not denying the existence of an affinity for Hellenic culture among Vlachs, but this does not constitute GREEK ethnicity. Stop lying to yourselves, the language is just tooooooo different for anyone to claim otherwise. Why won't people in the 21st century, in the European Union, just accept the existence of a different Vlach/Aromanian ethnicity? We don't have any territorial ambitions (not anymore...), we do not present a threat to the stability of Greece, let alone Romania; so why do you people care if we are or aren't Greek or Romanian? PS: I am not asking the rewriting of the article since i know that won't be done, but i am asking for the removal of this article from any WikiProjects regarding Greece or Romania.89.35.62.12 (talk) 03:55, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Let's agree about a few things:
 * 1) Let's talk in a calm tone. We achieve nothing if we get emotional.
 * 2) WP is a collaborative project. Rather than giving your tuppence (two pennies), it would be more productive to give one hour of work per day for a fortnight (two weeks) trying to imporve the article. Obviously the article needs serious improvement, especially from people of this ethnicity. Be bold, and please do help! Don't just critisize. Nobody is monopolizing this article. Moreover, if you read this talk page, you'd notice how  experienced but outside (non-specialist) editors are eagerly forthcoming to accomodate any observations.
 * 3) The only reason the article might be placed in some WikiProject is that it can be developed there. If there would exist a WikiProject Aromanians, I am sure your request would be met. Otherwise, if there are no Aromanians willing to improve this article, let at least Greeks and Romanians do this. I hope this is a positive provocation.

As for the language (Aromanian vs Romanian), your comparison with Spanish and Portuguese is quite good. Why don't you find a sourse for such a claim and introduce it in the article. Dc76\talk 11:02, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Location
I read that Aromanians are perhaps the descendents of Roman legionaries garrisoning the road from Rome to Costantinopolis. Of course being protected by a heavy system fortifications made this a place of high concentration of Latin speakers.

A look at the map of their distribution here seems to lend support to this hypothesis.

I suggest adding more information about this point in the article.Aldrasto (talk) 12:23, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

MacedonArman people
Why some administrators Romanians or Greeks constantly delete native names of Aromanians???? I am Macedon Arman and in my language this means Makedonji-Armanji! What is the problem??? Why these ethimologies are constantly deleted?? (Njirlu (talk) 16:24, 7 December 2009 (UTC))


 * As I said, one of the sources you added didn't verify the material. I find no pressing reason to take your word on the other one, given your history here.--Cúchullain t/ c 18:40, 7 December 2009 (UTC)


 * And might we ask why you, Njirlu, keep on deleting "Vlaçi" as one of the names, despite it being probably the most commonly used name by speakers of the language (that is, in Greece, where the majority of speakers live)? And it being widely attested in the primary literature as well (Thede Kahl's books etc)? Just provide a good citation for "Makedonji-Armanji", and we'll be fine leaving it in (though not to the exclusion of "Vlaçi").Mundart (talk) 16:26, 8 December 2009 (UTC)


 * The user is now banned from editing.--Cúchullain t/ c 16:42, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

What is the source that they call themselves "Vlaçi" in their own language? I thought that the only Vlach people who referred to themselves in their own language with variants of the word Vlach were the Megleno-Romanians.--Ptolion (talk) 16:52, 8 December 2009 (UTC)


 * I'll try to check at the office this week, but I'm pretty sure I remember it from either Weigand, Friedman, Kahl, or one of the grammars (or all of the above). The Vlachs I know personally call their language "vlaçestili" (as in "zburescu vlaçestili") as well; these are from Macedonia and Thessaly.Mundart (talk) 23:56, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. How is the letter "ç" pronounced? Is it [ʃ], [ɕ], [ç] or something else?--Ptolion (talk) 11:59, 9 December 2009 (UTC)


 * It's [ç], conveniently. Mundart (talk) 16:01, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

History of Albania and Vlachs
I suggest a good read of the French priest Jean-Claude Faveyrial, written at the end of the XIXth century. You can read the book online in http://www.albanianhistory.net/pdf/FaveyrialHistoireAlbanie.pdf The book will be an excellent source of many resources. One of them is in page 308 where it clearly states that there were no greeks north of Mt. Parnass in 1830. Those areas were inhabited only by Vlachs and Albanians. Have a good read!user:sulmues--Sulmues 15:57, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

Same problem on fr:
Hello,

We have the same disagreement on fr: Some of the contributors (there as well as here) have been banned from fr:, so have they from ro:

By the way, Aromanians is not a FA on ro:. --O Kolymbitès (talk) 17:36, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

The Macedonian/Arman people
Here you can see a book printed in FYROM wich is relevant for the ethnic name of aromanians descendents of antic macedonians. (John Tegu (talk)) —Preceding undated comment added 07:03, 22 May 2010 (UTC).

Same image twice
The image in the infobox is repeated near the end of the article. 190.31.134.14 (talk) 19:44, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

Aromanians in Macedonia
Hello, I have reverted this edit because it has a reference and the data written in the article can be found in the reference. Please look at this document, since it has no page numbers i`l try to explain as precise as possible - somwhere in the middle of the page under the title "The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" - First and second paragraph addresses the population number:

''According to official statistics (for 1994),(10) there are only 8 467 Vlachs in "the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia", concentrated in the regions of Skopje, Stip, Bitola, Krusevo and Struga, but the Aromanian associations dispute this figure, "which should be 10 or 12 times greater". Some Aromanians also live in Ohrid, Kocani-Vinica, Sveti Nikole, Kumanovo and Gevgelija.''

and ''According to a 1994 report by the British Helsinki Human Rights Groups, the figure emerging from the census refers to the number of persons who still use the Aromanian language and who consider themselves first and foremost as Aromanians. However, many Vlach families which have been more or less assimilated linguistically into the majority population are still proud of their origins. Such persons, who consider themselves as Vlachs, had apparently declared themselves to be "Macedonian" in the official context of the census. This being the case, the total number of Aromanians in "the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" would probably just exceed 100 000,(11) a figure akin to the associations' estimates.'' Adrian (talk) 15:25, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Are you aware that this statement is provisional and just imagination or some kind of proposal? The number will be higher if something changes and so on, which is not relevant, academic and scientific source. Also, if there were 100.000 Tsintsars in Macedonia believe me they would speak and write in Tsintsar, but there are not. Official census is enough, no need of speculations and similar thing. Also, it will be nice if you avoid the abbreviation FYROM, so I cannot inform the admins. Best.--MacedonianBoy (talk) 16:14, 6 January 2011 (UTC)


 * This is an official report of the Council of Europe - a credible organization. I am sorry but I can`t agree with you here that this is not relevant. We have a reference that states an estimation, at least we could do is to include it in the article. I am sorry, I am not informed of this, I am using FYROM - The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia. I am not aware that there is an admin decision not to use this official name for this country. Can you please show me so I could know for sure ? Thank you. Adrian (talk) 16:20, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
 * As far as I know the official name of Romania is Republic of Romania, not the former Hungarian Republic of Romania. The same goes here, the official name of the country is Republic of Macedonia since the Macedonian constitution states that. If you could see this decision, especially the last sentence you will be informed. Also, according to this I am offended as you may know by that abb. Best and I will find more appropriate sources soon.--MacedonianBoy (talk) 16:31, 6 January 2011 (UTC)


 * I am sorry but with what are you comparing to has no sense(Romania and Hungary, Macedonia and Yugoslavia). Try to respect WP:NPA. As far as I know, until the naming dispute is resolved, the official name is The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia 1. Wikipedia doesn`t obey to any constitution of any country in the world, anyhow, since there is a decision on Wikipedia (of which I wasn`t aware of until now) how to use this name country I will respect it of course. I am sorry if I offended you in any way, I am just following the facts. This certainly wasn`t a personal attack. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia not a forum(blog), please bear that in mind. About the source, this is perfectly fine. If you think that this source isn`t reliable, please feel free to challenge it at the reference notice board. Greetings. Adrian (talk) 16:46, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
 * How can you follow official name if you exclude official constitution? Official name means the name the country decided to use and there is no other official name except Republic of Macedonia. FYROM is not official name,it is temporary name within UN. If Wikipedia obeys any constitution, then how can we speak about official names? I know you got the message and you understand a lot more then you state. You stated with such style of speaking (using offensive names), where as I wanted to speak about the references and Tsintsars, but not now, I will contribute after certain time. --MacedonianBoy (talk) 17:03, 6 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Official names that are accepted by Wikipedia. Usually that is what the constitutions or laws of any country states, but not always. As you can see I have good intentions from the begging, I read this article therefore I used the name I saw there, and I apologized for using this name, I did`t know that there was a consensus how to use it on Wikipedia. Anyway, there is a wikipedia decision about this subject and know I know about it - and I will respect it. Also I didn`t used in an article, this is a talk page. I am sorry, but you should assume good faith in this conversation (since I am). About Aromanians, I already responded in my previous message. If I wrote something non-understandable please direct my attention to it and I will do my best to correct myself. You can contribute to this article now, or later, it is your choice of course, but bare in mind that you can`t just remove referenced text or add your personal opinion to the article just like that. Greetings Adrian (talk) 17:14, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia does not decides what is official name, but the country's constitution and that is fact. If you follow Wikipedia standards, then you will see that the article is called Republic of Macedonia, not FYROM so it proves something. But it is OK now. I have put some data from past censuses in Macedonia so it gives more info to the reader. Best.--MacedonianBoy (talk) 17:23, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
 * There is a good point in Jingiby's last edit. According to the censuses in Macedonia and Bulgaria, there are not Aromanians, but Vlachs. According to this, the statistics about Macedonia are wrong.--MacedonianBoy (talk) 13:55, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

Map
I removed this map, whose source obviously aren't the official statistics of Macedonia. The Turkish minority doesn't appear on the map and in some areas minorities that don't exist in Macedonia(2002 census) have been added etc. -- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 05:32, 29 April 2011 (UTC)