Talk:Arrhenotoky

i thought parthogenesis was either apomctical thelytoky or automictical thelytoky....

Haplodiploidy
Not for the first time, we have more than one article on the same topic. See haplodiploidy. Macdonald-ross (talk) 08:31, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

Comments
I note the following:
 * 1) Only refs 1 and 2 are secondary sources as required by WP guidelines. Therefore what they say has precedence. The Dictionary of Genetics is the leading source of definitions for this field. It gives definitions of arrhenotoky and haplodiploidy which are virtually identical. This supports my view that the terms are either synonymous, or so nearly so as makes no difference.
 * 2) The second para starts of with the sentence "The set of processes included under the term arrhenotoky depends on the author." which I think is questionable. I accept the importance of the second references, but unfortunately I cannot access the full text, and so I cannot see whether the full text would support the sentence above. However, I see the author uses the term haplodiploidy and not arrhenotoky, which further bolsters my view that the two pages should be merged.
 * 3) The third para dangles: it is not clear what the word 'This' refers to.

Macdonald-ross (talk) 12:58, 19 June 2012 (UTC)


 * added one more secondary source.
 * "The set of processes included under the term arrhenotoky depends on the author." the variation in the usage of the term is mentioned and discussed in normark 2003. If you can't access this the other sources also specifically discuss the other use of the term.


 * Staticd (talk) 20:50, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

I think we could do with some direct quotations. I notice in Gavrilov & Kuznetsova the following (p171, upper part): "In arrhenotoky, insects are haplodiploid, with haploid males developing from unfertilized eggs while diploid females developing [should be 'develop'] from fertilized diploid eggs". That is exactly what I have been saying. Macdonald-ross (talk) 13:18, 20 June 2012 (UTC)


 * "In the most commonly used sense of the term, arrhenotoky is used synonymously with haploid arrhenotoky : the production of haploid males from unfertilized eggs in insects having a haplodiploid sex-determination system. Males are produced parthenogenetically, while diploid females are usually[nb 1] produced biparentally from fertilized eggs. In a similar phenomenon parthenogenetic, diploid eggs develop into males by converting one set of their chromosomes to heterochromatin and inactivating them.[6] This is referred to as diploid arrhenotoky.[7] "


 * A non trivial number of sources use alternate definitions that practising biologists need to be aware of and need to know which one applies in a given context. (text book writers and course instructors try to make definitions the be all and the end all of biology. practising biologists—and hence professional literature—are a often a lot more fluid in their definitions as the focus is on explaining and describing new concepts.)


 * do a google search for any number of other sources (please do put in a better one if you get it) or get another editor with access to normark 2003 to look at the section haplodiploidy on page 401. will put a request for some one else to check the article on the genetics page. Staticd (talk) 18:59, 20 June 2012 (UTC)


 * "The best-known form of haplodiploidy is arrhenotokous haplodiploidy, in which males develop from unfertilized eggs (Appendix, I.B.1). This system is often called simply arrhenotoky, meaning virgin birth of males. But virgin females give birth to diploid males in some mixed genetic systems such as that of aphids, and this is also called arrhenotoky (14)"
 * ref 14. is Blackman RL, Eastop VF. 2000. Aphids on the World’s Crops: An Identification and Information Guide. Chichester: Wiley. 466 pp. 2nd ed.


 * curiously, in the google book for the above reference, a search for arrhenotoky returned no results. The alternate use diploid arrhenotoky is really rare but the phenomenon has no other descriptive term. I myself am leery of using the term for the case of aphids, as it has a proper alternate term - deuterotoky.
 * Is quoting this much from a paper in this context OK under fair use? Sorry, I'm not very clear about this particular corner of wikipedia copyright policy. Cheerio ! Staticd (talk) 18:55, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

Jesus
Is this how Mary gave birth to Jesus? Yassine Mehdi (talk) 21:41, 26 June 2023 (UTC)