Talk:Arrondissement of Château-Chinon (Ville)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was moved to Arrondissement of Château-Chinon (Ville), since it is the original proposal and most participants agree it is better than the status quo. Discussion of removing "(Ville)" altogether should continue below. kotra (talk) 20:36, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Arrondissement of Château-Chinon(Ville) → Arrondissement of Château-Chinon (Ville) &mdash; This was listed under "uncontroversial moves" at WP:RM, but since one editor more-or-less contested it, I'm starting a formal discussion. – Juliancolton  &#124; Talk 10:54, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm the one who contested it. The whole context is quoted below. Jafeluv (talk) 11:25, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Arrondissement of Château-Chinon(Ville) →  — Name as per INSEE — Kiwipete (talk) 09:38, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Move proposal 2

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the proposal was

This proposal started out as a request to move from Arrondissement of Château-Chinon(Ville) to Arrondissement of Château-Chinon (Ville) note the extra space. It then became a request to also consider a move to Arrondissement of Château-Chinon. As a move was made during this WP:RM from I am going to shut this move proposal as no consensus, because it is not at all clear to me in the end the consensus was, and as there was no strong objections to the premptive move, I see no point in keeping this WP:RM open. -- PBS (talk) 16:53, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Arrondissement of Château-Chinon(Ville) → Arrondissement of Château-Chinon (Ville) &mdash; Why not Arrondissement of Château-Chinon? That's a redirect anyway. Jafeluv (talk) 09:54, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
 * To follow the official name as per INSEE (see here) Kiwipete (talk) 10:29, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
 * In that case, it would be Arrondissement de Château-Chinon (Ville), wouldn't it? In any case, it's not the official name we care about, but rather the most common name in English. I suggest filing this as a potentially controversial move. Jafeluv (talk) 10:35, 19 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Is there any other Arrondissement of Château-Chinon? If not, I can see no reason why we need to disambiguate by Ville, no matter what the French statistics authority may do. Can anyone explain why they do this?  Does it follow a pattern for anywhere else in France?  Skinsmoke (talk) 13:37, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Agreed. At the very least, the (Ville) disambiguation needs to be dropped. — V = I * R  (talk) 19:27, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
 * The (Ville) is not intended to disambiguate this article from another Wikipedia article, it is part of the actual name of the arrondissement. All I was intending to do was reflect INSEE's very minor change of adding a space between "Chinon" and "(Ville)".  Kiwipete (talk) 23:26, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
 * OK, first obvious question: what is "INSEE", and why should Wikipedia care about what whatever it is thinks? — V = I * R  (talk) 23:55, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
 * INSEE is the French government's department of statistics and economic studies, and its COG database defines all administrative subdivisions in France. It is the source of much information used in WP:FR and WP:FRCOM.  Kiwipete (talk) 01:27, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
 * So... your point is that the English Wikipedia should submit to whatever this French government agency thinks? What about WP:UE and WP:UCN? — V = I * R  (talk) 01:45, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
 * My point is that Wikipedia relies on (or should) external authoritative sources of information. WP:UE is the reason that "de" was changed to "of", WP:UCN has no real relevance to the actual name of this arrondissement.  Kiwipete (talk) 03:08, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
 * So, no English source has ever transliterated the name of this place to English? I'll take your word for it, I just find that tough to believe. Regardless, the "(Ville)" portion should either be removed or somehow transformed simply because here on Wikipedia is looks like a disambiguator. Whether it's intended to be or not, if it's there it's very likely to cause some confusion here on the English Wikipedia. You seem knowledgeable about this so I'm willing to accept basically anything that you propose, but it should be changed. — V = I * R  (talk) 05:37, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Just a comment, Ω: I think you're confusing transliteration with translation :) Jafeluv (talk) 10:04, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Am I? I read the definitions, and I'm still not sure... lol — V = I * R  (talk) 10:07, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
 * FYI: Manual of Style (France & French-related) exists. — V = I * R  (talk) 19:40, 19 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Just to confirm my position: I don't have a problem with moving the page to fix the spacing if there's no consensus to move to another title. Jafeluv (talk) 10:09, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
 * My primary choice would be Arrondissement of Château-Chinon. It clearly does have some English usage. The proposed title, as far as I could find, is not commonly used in English (or in any language, since the INSEE term is "arrondissement de Château-Chinon (Ville)"). I'd also like to point out that the INSEE specifies what places are called in French, not in English. Jafeluv (talk) 10:21, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I can support that. My main objection from the beginning is basically a knee jerk reaction against the inclusion of "(Ville)" in the title, primarily because it looks like some sort of disambiguator even if it's not supposed to be. — V = I * R  (talk) 11:03, 26 August 2009 (UTC)


 * how about an english title? Château-Chinon district 76.66.192.144 (talk) 04:24, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

I don't think any English name is "widely accepted" as used in this context; most of those google books results for "Arrondissement of Château-Chinon" appear to be non-English usage or not uses of the phrase as a title. Thus I support the initial move request to Arrondissement of Château-Chinon (Ville), which uses the modern official name, "Château-Chinon (Ville)"; "of" instead of "de" is a reasonable concession to English usage which seems to be a convention for the other articles on arrondissements. Baileypalblue (talk) 08:32, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
 * From Naming conventions (geographic names): "When a widely accepted English name, in a modern context, exists for a place, we should use it. This often will be a local name, or one of them; but not always. If the place does not exist anymore, or the article deals only with a place in a period when it held a different name, the widely accepted historical English name should be used. If neither of these English names exist, the modern official name, in articles dealing with the present, or the modern local historical name, in articles dealing with a specific period, should be used."
 * I can't and won't support anything that uses "(Ville)", at least not with the parenthesis. — V = I * R  (talk) 11:38, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Oppose. I've found out a bit more about this name.  Arrondissements are named after their chef-lieu.  In this arrondissement, there are two communes, Château-Chinon (Ville) and Château-Chinon (Campagne), presumably to distinguish between the urban and rural areas.  This map here illustrates the relationship between the two communes.  Kiwipete (talk) 03:13, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for pointing that out. The problem is, I don't see why the English Wikipedia should be bound by the disambiguation techniques that happen to be used by INSEE (or anyone else, for that matter). Arrondissement of Château-Chinon is currently just a redirect to the article with the "(Ville)" in it, so I don't see an issue with simply swapping that relationship around. — V = I * R  (talk) 05:27, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
 * That makes sense, Kiwipete. However, the problem with the current name is that there's no indication that it's used at all in English, let alone being the most common name. If you check Google Books, you'll see "Arrondissement of Château-Chinon" used pretty often (and as I understand it there's no other arrondissements named "Château-Chinon", so the uses are referring to the same thing we're talking about). Jafeluv (talk) 02:12, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Ah! This is begining to make sense now.  Arrondissements in France are indeed named after communes, which are their chef-lieu (we would normally translate that as capital, but it has a slightly different meaning in French).  If there are two places named Château-Chinon, then Arrondissement of Château-Chinon becomes meaningless; in effect you finish up with an orphaned arrondissement!  In those circumstances it really should be Arrondissement of Château-Chinon (Ville), much though I personally dislike it. Skinsmoke (talk) 03:21, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
 * OK, that... sort of makes sense. It's like a county and a city with the same names, kind of. Still, we really need to get rid of the parenthesis in my opinion. I'm completely willing to be overruled on this, but wouldn't it be better to use, say: Ville of Arrondissement of Château-Chinon (or something similar) — V = I * R  (talk to Ω) 09:52, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Plus, I just re-read the article again, and the current content seems to be about the whole district. Unless I'm mixing up the terminology (Ville does mean town, right?) including the "(Ville)" seems incorrect anyway... I think. — V = I * R  (talk to Ω) 09:58, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Let's see if I can try and explain this (it took me a while to grasp it!). The article is about the whole arrondissement (roughly translated as division or district or area).  In France, the arrondissements are named after the chef lieu (roughly capital).  Ville does indeed mean town or city (there is no real distinction in France other than the Cité de Paris).  There are two Château-Chinons in France, both of which are in the same arrondissement.  One is Château-Chinon (Ville) (English: Château-Chinon (Town)) and the other is Château-Chinon (Campagne) English: Château-Chinon (Country)).  They are next to each other.  You occasionally get a similar thing in England where there are two civil parishes adjacent to each other as in Wem Urban and Wem Rural.  Unfortunately, the French insist on differentiating between the two by using parenthesis.  This is not just a method of INSEE differentiating between the two, but is part of the official legal name of the two communes.  As the arrondissement is named after its chef lieu, Château-Chinon (Ville) it becomes the Arrondissement of Château-Chinon (Ville); it cannot be the Arrondissement of Château-Chinon, because there is no commune called Château-Chinon.  Make sense?  I know the answer is, "no, not really", but we need to blame those French Republicans in 1789 for this ridiculously rigid structure.  Personally, I loath the parenthesis in this, but I really think we are stuck with it, as anything else amounts to original research and creating a name just for Wikipedia use. Skinsmoke (talk) 14:55, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Just to throw a spanner in the works, it appears that, in any case, the official name is Château-Chinon(Ville) (without a space)! And there is also a Canton de Château-Chinon(Ville) (a sort of sub-district) as well!  If it's any consolation, this whole thing is an anomaly even in France and does, as I suspected, date back to the commune being split in two back in 1789.  Technically, the town is officially called the Ville de Château-Chinon(Ville) (English: Town of Château-Chinon(Town))!!!  If you want to run screaming from the room at this point, I think everyone will understand! Skinsmoke (talk) 15:12, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Personally, I do feel a bit like "Running screaming from the room"! What's worse is that this movereq is now in the backlog... it's probably best at this point to simply leave it and mark this as "no consensus". One other possibility is to use brackets instead of parenthesis, so it would be "Arrondissement of Château-Chinon[Ville]" ,(as you can see, this idea won't work due to parsing issues) which would at least offer a visual differentiation indicating that the "Ville" portion is actually part of the name and not an odd disambiguator.
 * I should probably point out that I don't find "that's the legal name" to be a particularly compelling argument, personally (the discussion at Talk:Metropolitan borough fits in perfectly, here). I know that a lot of people seem to think that doing so is the best way to go, and that it should solve all arguments, but... it doesn't. We have our own requirements anyway, which this issue seems to illustrate well. The corollary point is that this is the English Wikipedia. The French are welcome to do what they like on fr.wikipedia (their actually encouraged to do so!), and the same goes for all other language versions, but that shouldn't typically constrain us. Does that make sense? — V = I * R  (talk to Ω) 07:27, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
 * We could simply drop the parenthesis altogether, and end up with "Arrondissement of Château-Chinon Ville", or use a dash to get "Arrondissement of Château-Chinon — Ville" — V = I * R  (talk to Ω) 07:35, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
 * After all that, I'm coming round to simply Arrondissement of Château-Chinon, as that appears to be what the French refer to it as in everyday use (English use hardly applies in this case, as hardly anyone ever talks about the arrondissements anyway). Perhaps a note in the introductory paragraph about the legal name. Skinsmoke (talk) 09:18, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
 * That would seem to be more in line with what we do in other articles... — V = I * R  (talk to Ω) 13:07, 1 September 2009 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.